‘Learn from us: jaw-jaw is better than war-war’…
LESSONS learned in Northern Ireland need to be learned in the Middle East, Tony Blair said the other day. He told the Commons: “It’s interesting to think ten years ago it looked like the Palestinian peace process was in better shape than that in Northern Ireland. I think the lesson of the last ten years is that unless people are put into a process which ensures continual dialogue then the danger is that the extremes take over because there is a political vacuum there.” So there you go; dialogue, no matter how meaningless, is always better than conflict.
“..The lesson from the Middle East process is that unless terrorists are crushed, they will come back for more and more….”
Interestingly, the British Conservative Party saw it differently in 1912 by aiding and abetting the Unionist terrorists James Craig and Edward Carson when those 2 Unionist terrorists illegally imported thousands of guns from Germany.
It has to be said, the Irish unionists were useful tools back then for the British Establishment in furthering perfidious Albion’s strategic goals in Ireland. How time flies and Albion’s strategic goals change ( “We do not have permanent friends – only permanent interests “…remember that one, lads ? ) – unionists are well past their sell-by date at this stage.
Plan A, B – or C…….semantics.
Game over boys – wake up and smell the coffee.
Smilin’ Jim: “Both parties do not have to be tired of fighting. It is for the United States to step in make damned certain that the binding UN Resolutions already passed.are enforced.”
ROFL!!
You’re joking, right? “Binding UN Resolution” is right up there with “military intelligence” on the list of oxymoron.
Smilin’ Jim: “When you show the Middle East that we really are an honest broker and can control the Israelis, then we can work with the Arabs and Persians to get their clients under control.”
You mean like last time, when Israel withdrew from Israel, per the UN resolution and the UN assured Israel that Hizbollah would be disarmed? Even when the US reins in Israel, the UN, the EU, the Arabs and the Persians can’t be counted upon to hold up their end of the bargain.
Smilin’ Jim: “Now fella, are you really an Irish-American, the old man is just dying to know? ”
Second generation, just for the record.
A thought experiments:
Can you imagine what number of Lebanese children would have to be killed in a week of Israeli attacks before a Zionist would criticise Israeli policy?
I will give you a clue, it is more than 100.
Play the ball, Eoghan.
No problem with me, Pedro, I am a redneck, gun totin’, inbred desert rat, just like the whiskey tango patriots lookin’ fer gay-married, flag-burnin’ Mexicans on the Arizona border. I still have my own teeth, though.
On the other problem there is plenty of room for operational skepticism. A lot has to happen and the players on the board are really thick.
We only have direct control over our own actions so the most we can do is get our client state on a leash. That has to come first.
The next problem is getting the Persians and Arabs that support the Palestinian proxy fighters of Fatah, Hezbollah and Hamas to believe that we can broker a solution. That solution is a viable Palestinian state. It might also engender an “Indian” solution to the Iranian atomic energy program.. Dangle a world before them possible only after endgame.
Everything starts from there.
Once the proxy fighters are read their rights by their money men we can get down to the talks.
Get some talent across the table from them (Rice won’t do, she’s a cold war expert), let the knuckleheads wind down on their diatribes, look them in the eye and ask them how they are going to march through the 50 kiloton fireball to drive the hated Zionists into the sea. The Israelis have the bomb, the Palestinians know that. Hell, even we won’t invade a country with nuclear weapons.
I know the Israelis with negotiate with the terrorists, they have before. They were concocting a deal with Black September when the German police turned Munich into the Israeli 911. They will talk again.
Having said all that, don’t get your guitar out for Kumbaya singalong. The USA will never be able to get the Israelis on a leash in this decade …. they are currently the tail that is wagging the USA dog.
Shay: “The Israli military have now killed (at a minimum) three hundred Lebanese. Of those 300 only thirty are thought to be non-civilain casualties and furthermore the figures for Hezbollah fighters killed is thought to be around ten despite the fact that the “pinpoint acuracy” bombing is supposedly targeted at them. ”
This afternoon, the numbers I heard quoted were 100 terrorists, putting the Israelis at a 1 in 3 rate, which is reasonable, given Mizbollahs’ practice of using civilian populations as cover for their infrastructure and armaments.
Smilin’ Jim: “Once the proxy fighters are read their rights by their money men we can get down to the talks”
Unlikely – too many governments in the region rely on the Palestinian problem to distract their own populations from what a mess their own countries are in.
Gonna have to wait for the Israelis to get tired before their going to talk, neh — I miss Rabin — fight like there are no talks, talk like there is no fighting.
You’re joking, right? “Binding UN Resolution” is right up there with “military intelligence” on the list of oxymoron.
You mean like last time, when Israel withdrew from Israel, per the UN resolution and the UN assured Israel that Hizbollah would be disarmed? Even when the US reins in Israel, the UN, the EU, the Arabs and the Persians can’t be counted upon to hold up their end of the bargain.
The Bush Administration chose to nobble the UN, just as certainly if Dubya had flown an airliner into the building. We nobbled the UN, we made it impossible to make 1559 work, we created the present situation. If they have the absolute backing of a superpower that can overrun any tinpot country in the middle east in three weeks, you can get anything done.
Also, if we hadn’t run from Lebanon with our tails between our legs in 1983 we would not be in this mess again. It’s a matter of courage, not Ronnie’s image and the ’84 election.
Second generation, just for the record.
I was curious since the stereotype Irish-American, especially if Catholic, is dead set against the planters in Ulster and bleating on about the republican dispossessed, centuries after the fact. Yet when Israel becomes the subject, the planters can do no wrong, having been set into Deathworld, full of evil, homicidal, spearchuckers that just seemed to materialize out of thin air since there were no natives in this paradise. At home they are right to lifers, Reagan conservative and are Dan Quale clones on family values. You can almost bet the grocery money on this curious combination of attitudes time after time after time. It’s damn near three sigma now.
The only time I recall witnessing this odd twist in perception is with Leon Uris, who first made money off the European colonists that formed Israel and then fell in love with the those dispossessed by the European colonists of the Ulster Plantation.
Anyway, it is why I avoid Americans like the plague whenever I am incountry. I like Canadians though.
Unlikely – too many governments in the region rely on the Palestinian problem to distract their own populations from what a mess their own countries are in.
Like Egypt, Jordan?
The situation is the same, our players are just pigmys now.
Good luck with that myopia.
Close-ups of Dead children I find quite traumatic, I’m sure there are other sensitive souls who will also.
and Israeli kids writing FU messages on HE rounds.
That generation is either dead or twisted.
Either way Sideshow Bob hits the rake again.
Smilin’ Jim: “The Bush Administration chose to nobble the UN, just as certainly if Dubya had flown an airliner into the building. We nobbled the UN, we made it impossible to make 1559 work, we created the present situation. If they have the absolute backing of a superpower that can overrun any tinpot country in the middle east in three weeks, you can get anything done. ”
Jim, have you the slightest idea how the UN operates in that part of the world?
They loan ambulances to Hamas, the better to move their bombs and personnel, they film Hizbollah incursions into Israel, then hide the tape so as to preserve their “neutrality” and generally do a great deal to make things easier for the tangos.
Israel is requested to show “restraint,” whilst the tangos do as they will.
Smilin’ Jim: “Also, if we hadn’t run from Lebanon with our tails between our legs in 1983 we would not be in this mess again. It’s a matter of courage, not Ronnie’s image and the ‘84 election. ”
Its a matter of US politicians having a low threshold for anything that looks like a quagmire, otherwise the known as the “Vietnamization” of every conflict. I also don’t seem to remember any liberals calling for standing fast.
Smilin’ Jim: “Good luck with that myopia. ”
Makes a good match for you leukoplakia.
I think that we should have responded vigorously to their first abduction of three soldiers back in october 2000. If that had taken place, today we wouldn’t have had to fight a well digged terror organistaion with so many missiles!
“Brian, if you think that, after, what, nearly 50 years of anti-semitic rabble rousing the Arab states would suddenly let Shia v. Sunni get in the way of denouncing Israel and giving them an excuse to dragged “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” specials out of the vaults, yer kidding yourself.”
Arabs are also semites so I question whether anti-semitic is the right term. But if a people came to my country, turfed the Irish out of their homes, and justified it by some ancient religious texts I’m pretty sure I’d hate the invaders too. The creation of Israel was a huge error of judgement, borne mainly of guilt for failing to stop the Holocaust. In the emotional reaction, the human rights of the Arab inhabitants of Palestine were cast to the four winds, and Israelis have paid the price ever since. There can be no military solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. There can only be a political colution. BTW to label criticism of the State of Israel as “anti-semitism” is Political-Correctness gone mad. I don’t believe Israel is entitled to be placed on an exalted perch where it becomes above criticism.
“This afternoon, the numbers I heard quoted were 100 terrorists, putting the Israelis at a 1 in 3 rate, which is reasonable, given Mizbollahs’ practice of using civilian populations as cover for their infrastructure and armaments.”
That’s if you believe the Israeli figures. Which I don’t. Lebanese refugees talk about how they get leaflets dropped from the Israelis telling them to leave, and then when they try to leave, the Israelis bomb them. A lot of the people Israel is labelling as “terrorists” are most likely such individuals, with Israel no doubt labelling truck-drivers as “terrorists” driving trucks with “katyusha rockets”. It is propaganda and the first casualty of war is the truth. This is a completely OTT response by Israel, which I believe masks sinister aims of Eretz Israel (Menchaim Begin’s word for “Greater Israel”). Israeli politicians comparisons with Winston Churchill (who had rather more provocation than 2 British soldiers taken hostage) are laughable, especially coming from a country that produced statesmen responsible for the following Nazi-like comments:
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”. (David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.)
“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” (David Ben Gurion)
– Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.”
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
– Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
– Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.
“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
– Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
All these quotes can also be found here: http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
If Israel wants peace (which it doesn’t)then it must withdraw to its 1967 borders – as required by UN resolutions. Israeli officials have quoted Resolition 1559 in regard to Lebanon disarming Hezbollah. They seem very selective though about which resolutions they support. Hypocrisy from the Zionist entity.
“I think that we should have responded vigorously to their first abduction of three soldiers back in october 2000. If that had taken place, today we wouldn’t have had to fight a well digged terror organistaion with so many missiles!”
Dror ben-adam, they were POW’s not hostages. Capturing soldiers in a time of war is not terrorism. BTW do you consider the blowing up of the King David Hotel to be “terrorism”? Were the Stern Gang terrorists? If the answer is no then it proves that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom-fighter. Warmonger!
Just wanted to apolagise for not putting a warning on the link i posted.
That said, aside from a leaflet drop how much of a warning are the victims and casulties of the Israeli bombardment getting?
I also think that it was important to spread that link…..i was frankly shocked to see children signing artillery shells which i found to be insidious and downright disgusting.
Brian Boru:
Dror ben-adam, they were POW’s not hostages. Capturing soldiers in a time of war is not terrorism. BTW do you consider the blowing up of the King David Hotel to be “terrorism”?
These are different times you’re talking about, and since I consider them terrorists, it doesn’t prove to me anything but that you’re a terror apologist of Hizbale.
When Lebanon has a formal army, and yet Hizbale activates its own army against anyone who doesn’t consent with their actions.
THAT’S TERRORISM AND A CLEAR CUT ONE!
“Arabs are also semites so I question whether anti-semitic is the right term. But if a people came to my country, turfed the Irish out of their homes, and justified it by some ancient religious texts I’m pretty sure I’d hate the invaders too.”
That’s exactly what the arabs tried to do time after time to Jews who lived in The Land of Israel for centuries in Hebron, Safed and Jerusalem. Then they suddenly become the victims?
According to your logic all those Arabs who came after the Jews, because of Jewish economical growth, and of whom the majority of Arabs here are consisted, should immediately leave!
The Arabs are the ones who stole land, via Turkish Ottoman emperialists.
History aside, their reaction to Barak’s offer, and their belligerency puts them in the position of aggressors, what they really are.
Now, about your QUOTES, I’d very much want to se their Hebrew origins. I know of a few sayings against the Arabs, but usually left-leaning activists like Mona Baker, Ilan Pape, Noam Chomsky and their likes tend to ommit, change and deform speeches in order to twist History.
Amen to that Moochin.
I got as far as the second wean lying in the rubble before I had to turn it off. I know lots of blood-thirsty fuckers that could do with being forced to watch that. Puts it all in perspective, of course just in case any of the whatabouts are around. The two dead children in Nazareth would I imagine looked equally grotesque in death.
I am on the side of the innocents here, not the pawns in this modern day “great game” but for the grace of God, these innocents could be ours.
“These are different times you’re talking about, and since I consider them terrorists, it doesn’t prove to me anything but that you’re a terror apologist of Hizbale.”
Sounds like hypocrisy to me. What it proves is that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
“History aside, their reaction to Barak’s offer, and their belligerency puts them in the position of aggressors, what they really are.”
The Barak offer would have deprived the Palestinians of control of their borders, airspace and water-supplies. Also the settlements in the middle of the West Bank were the remain and under IDF protection, making the Palestinian state in this are uncontiguous. The Barak deal was not good enough and would not have led to a truly sovereign Palestinian state, whatever the Zionist propaganda says.
“That’s exactly what the arabs tried to do time after time to Jews who lived in The Land of Israel for centuries in Hebron, Safed and Jerusalem. Then they suddenly become the victims?
According to your logic all those Arabs who came after the Jews, because of Jewish economical growth, and of whom the majority of Arabs here are consisted, should immediately leave!
The Arabs are the ones who stole land, via Turkish Ottoman emperialists.”
Problems between Arabs and Jews started when the Zionist plan for a Jewish state in the region became clear, along with its implications for Arabs who correctly feared they would be ethnically-cleansed (which they were) from present-day Israel. The UN says 710,000 Arabs were turned into refugees. The Deir Yassin massacre of Arabs being an example of what I call Zionazism – the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs to make way for Jewish colonists.
The Arabs lived there since the 700′s. Forcing them to leave is like asking Americans of non-Indian descent to pack up and get out. Israel must leave illegally-occupied territories in the West Bank, Gaza and Golan. I don’t believe the question is now the existence of Israel but rather where its borders are.
mickhalkl “I find it difficult to understand how you can get things so out of perspective, i doubt few israelis would agree with your analysis, the war against hizbullah is simply a continuation of Israelis wars against the PLO and amal, nether of which were fundamentalist organizations.”
First of all I do not believe I have things out of perspective, indeed I believe I have a cleaerer insight based on your post.
Hibbollah, the Amal militia and the PLO have very different thinking and cannot simply be lumped together in the simplistic fashion which you have tried.
The PLO was formed by Arab states (or all shades) as the supposed voice of “Palestine”. It’s raison d’ete was to reverse the gains that the Israeli had made in 1948. Initially it’s intention was to wipe Israel off the map but as it now recognises Israel, it was seen a potential partner by Israel in the twin-state solution.
Amal was entirely Labanese and was formed as a response to the 1982 Israel invasion of ebannon. Amal and the PLO were deadly enemies and Amal probably killed more PLO people that Israel ever managed.
Amal also fought Hizbollah, both trying to be the “best pupil” for their tutor in crime (Syria). There certainly are similaries between Hizbollah and Amal, but almost all of the fighting between Amal and Israel was done in Lebannon. Attacks on Israel proper were few and far between. (In fact I’m even struggling to remember any of any major significance).
“Think about where islamic fundamentalists are to the fore, it is in some of the poorest countries in the world, none of whom pose any military threat to the west.
Places like Afghanistan (reported base of al-Qaeda) perhaps? There is no country that can be dismissed as threat to the west if they harbour terrorism.
Iran is something different, but it can in no way be compared with the fundamentalists of bin Laden and his ilk.
Iran is only different because it has the money and power to fund terrorism on a global basis. It has influence over places like Syria as well as groups like Hizbollah in Lebannon and most likely Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza.
By fighting Hamas and Hizbollah, Israel is leading the way. The West should follow.
“Places like Afghanistan (reported base of al-Qaeda) perhaps? There is no country that can be dismissed as threat to the west if they harbour terrorism.”
Islamic terrorism is anti-American largely because the US is so blindly pro-Israel and one-sided on the Arab-Israeli conflict. As far as the American politicians are concerned, Israel can do no wrong and is above criticism. Add to that the annual $5 billion in financial aid and $3 billion in military aid from the US and the image of the Americans in the Muslim and especially Arab world is not exactly that of an “honest broker”. In fact, there was hardly any international Muslim terrorism in the West before 1948, when the Western powers decided to steal Arab land and hand it to American and European Jews. Yet we don’t hear anyone calling for the American whites to hand back their land to the American Indians do we?
I think the creation of the State of Israel was a huge error but one that is sadly at this stage too late in the day to reverse. The issue now is the borders of Israel. Even Hamas knows this – they signed an agreement with Fatah recognising Israel, and Hamas has offered Israel a ceasefire if they pull back to the 1967 borders (which is the only territory recognised as Israeli under International Law). Israel and the US – unfortunately – are the authors of their own misfortune.
And it is not true that Islamic terrorists are against all Western countries equally. They haven’t attacked Scandinavia, Ireland, Portugal, Austria, Germany etc. They attacked Spain (over Iraq), Britain (over Iraq as admitted in the bomber video) and the US (reasons mentioned earlier). So let’s stop pretending here that the Islamic world is simply about destroying the West for the sake of it and that there isn’t a more complex picture including fault on the US and Israeli side please. If someone were occupying my land I would fight. I would hope that the fact that my side mightn’t have tanks and F16′s wouldn’t render it “terrorist” in the eyes of the US or international media.
Keith M
I do not wish to give you a history lesson about Lebanese politics, but Amal was formed long before the IDF 82 invasion, it fought on the side of the Palestinians during some of the civil war and only flipped over on Mr Berry’s orders, after Syria gave them to him, after Assad snr realised the coalition which the PLO was part of might actually win the civil war, which in Assad’s mind would make arafat far to big for his boots.
I digress, my main point was that there are major political and religious differences between the PLO and Amal and Hizbullah, but all three groups have at some time found themselves at war with the IDF.
Do you not feel thee might just be a grievance with Israel that has nothing to do with terrorists, but is genuine and unless it is dealt with in a fair and open manner, then war with all its tragic consequence will be all the people of this region can look forward to.
It is not rocket science,there is a solution to the middle east problem, true all will not accept it, but I would bet the overwhelming majority of Arabs and jews will. That is a two state solution based on Israel returning as requested by UN resolutions to its 1967 borders.
This would enable both Israel and Palestine to share parts of Jerusalem as its Capital.
If this where to happen the right of the State of Israel to exist would be set in stone; and guaranteed by all of those within the international community who have the means to do so. Not as to day relying on its continued existence on the good will and largess of an American President who changes ever four or eight years.
True a two state solution would still be unfair to the arabs, but I am certain those closest to the conflict would accept it because it is better than what is todays reality. Who knows if the two states became successful we might even see a common market developing within the region and eventually something like the EU.
Jews and arabs lived in comparative harmony for centuries especially in the ottoman empire and there is no reason why this could not be so again.
Regards
Mick
Prince Eoghan
Last years press association awards had an image which i will never forget, that of the head of a suicide bomber, intact, upright as you would normally expect, amonst the rubble and carnage of his actions.
With such fundamentalist and extremists on both sides i do wonder what it will take for peace in the middle east.
Hamas celebrate suicide bombers by having a party…sweets are given out and the living relatives are encouraged to join in the celebrations. Posters of the suicide bombers are created and put up within hours of their martyrdom.
I am personnally conflicted on this having lived in Israel at a formative period of my life and i know some of my friends and acquaintances will be involved with the defense of their country. I only can trust that they serve with humility and compassion if at all possible and do not go on to perpetrate crimes against their neighbours…how frigged up is that?
Its a crazy mixed up world!
moochin
Whilst I hope your friends stay safe, trying to defend your own country by invading and occupying someone else’s is not a very good idea, it may solve an immediate problem but I doubt it will deal with the basic cause of the conflict.
Best regards.
I’d agree mickhall but after WWII and the atrocities carried out on Jews and others it is Israeli response is understandable. I’m not defending it i just understand the pervasive fear within the Israeli mindset. I think there has been a disproportinate response to all this, 2 soldiers in the scheme of things(collateral damages) are not a great price to pay, however, politicians being what they are( opportunistic 2 face lying twats as a rule imho) the kidnapping could not be ignored. The subsequent ambushes and lose of life to the IDF was a real slap in the face for them and that made a harser response inevitable. I do think they were taken by surprise by these attacks that were obviously well thought out and conducted. Hizbollah are no saints for sure and extremist organisations such as these thrive on such heavy handed responses which only serve to propagate the myths surronding this conflict, bringing more martyrs/cannon fodder into the frame.
Is this another instance of fundamentaists trying to broaden the conflict and engender support amongst their fellow arabs? If so where does it end?
BB “Islamic terrorism is anti-American largely because the US is so blindly pro-Israel and one-sided on the Arab-Israeli conflict.”
I would expect a country like America to be pro-Israel, because it is the only genuine democracy in the area. If America was not willing to support Israel then there would be a major flaw in its foreign policy.
Returning to the insecure 1967 boundaries is not an option. Let’s not forget what broke those boudaries; Arab invasions from all sides. Israel has now dealth with Egpt and agreed secure boundaries. Jordan has given up its’s claim to East Jerusalem and the West Bank. New (and defendable) boundaries need to be agreed as does the longterm status of Jerusalem.
In the list of countries that have been attacked by Muslim terrorists, you left out France, which has done most to appease muslim (esp. over thew liveration of Iqaq). Their reward : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2225300,00.html
The countries which muslim terrorists have targetted are selected on their profile and the terrorists ability to use local communities. Thankfully in most of Scandinavia integration is key and there is no potential support for terror in the local muslim community.
If you take the Netherlands as a different example you can see how westewrn values of free spech have been attacked in the most viscious way by muslims.
Mick Hall “Do you not feel thee might just be a grievance with Israel that has nothing to do with terrorists, but is genuine and unless it is dealt with in a fair and open manner, then war with all its tragic consequence will be all the people of this region can look forward to.
Yes I do feel that there is a connection and that it is simply another manifestation of the anti-semitism that has dogged the world for centuries before Israel was established. When you say “Jews and arabs lived in comparative harmony for centuries especially in the ottoman empire”. They only lived in in supposed harmony because the Turks would not allow because both Israelis and Arabs were denied self determination and the rioght to form their own sovreign states. I wouldn’t have put you down as a cheerleader for this kind of empirical regime.
Again lewt’s stop this nonsensical idea of returning to the 1967 boundaries, it’s not going to happened for the rassons I mention above.
We all know that a twin state solution is the only one likely to work. Israel has shown that it’s ready for this, when will the arab world follow? The longer they leave it, the worse a deal they are likely to get.
“Returning to the insecure 1967 boundaries is not an option. Let’s not forget what broke those boudaries; Arab invasions from all sides. Israel has now dealth with Egpt and agreed secure boundaries. Jordan has given up its’s claim to East Jerusalem and the West Bank. New (and defendable) boundaries need to be agreed as does the longterm status of Jerusalem.”
Nonsense. If they were undefendable then Israel would have lost those wars. Return to 1967 now! You also neglect to mention the expulsion of 710,000 Arabs from their homes by the Israeli forces in 1948 prior to the first Arab-Israeli war. Israel started this by its ethnic-cleansing of Arabs. Under the Geneva Convention, it is illegal to colonise occupied lands, which Israel has done for the last 40 years. They have demolished Arab homes with old women inside them. They carried out the massacre at Jenin (why was the media denied access to the scene by the IDF during the operation?). They have required all land sold to be sold to Jews. It is an Aparteid system like South Africa, and this will become all the more true when Jews become a minority between the Sinai and the Jordan river and Israel continues to cling on like a 19th century European colonial power.
“Yes I do feel that there is a connection and that it is simply another manifestation of the anti-semitism that has dogged the world for centuries before Israel was established. When you say “Jews and arabs lived in comparative harmony for centuries especially in the ottoman empire”. They only lived in in supposed harmony because the Turks would not allow because both Israelis and Arabs were denied self determination and the rioght to form their own sovreign states. I wouldn’t have put you down as a cheerleader for this kind of empirical regime.”
That’s just a cheap shot on your part and is rubbish. Illegal occupation of land is the reason, along with the relentless expansion of West Bank and Golan Settlements, and the endless insistence of Israel on solving its disputes with the Arabs through bombing and killing innocent civilians. I heard that Bush got advice from Israel on handling Iraq. No wonder then that Iraq is in such a mess.
“I would expect a country like America to be pro-Israel, because it is the only genuine democracy in the area. If America was not willing to support Israel then there would be a major flaw in its foreign policy.”
That’s a laugh considering the American’s record for installing dictatorships all over the world including Pinochet and Saddam. This has less to do with “democracy” than with the money of the pro-Israel lobby, the interests of the arms-industry in keeping the conflict going, and the oil–industry delighting in how Middle East conflict sends oil-prices soaring. I think you’re very naieve. And on the “two-state” solution, that will only happen when there are negotiations. When Arafat was alive Israel said “he’s not a partner for peace”. When he died Israel continued to refuse to talk to Abbas (why?). Then Hamas came along and won a democratic election and the new govt was on the verge of recognising Israel and Israel again says “we don’t have a partner to talk to”. When will Israel learn that you don’t make peace with your friends but with your enemies? How arrogant of them to lecture others on who their leaders should be.
“Sounds like hypocrisy to me. What it proves is that one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”
Where did I exactly cal the Stern Gangs freedom fighters?
That just shows your jumping on any occasion to bash Israel with no connection whatsoever with reality.
“The Barak offer would have deprived the Palestinians of control of their borders, airspace and water-supplies. Also the settlements in the middle of the West Bank were the remain and under IDF protection, making the Palestinian state in this are uncontiguous. The Barak deal was not good enough and would not have led to a truly sovereign Palestinian state, whatever the Zionist propaganda says. ”
Giving this was out of line for Barak – I don’t know what impudence he’s got to propose such a plan, still it was much more than just a plan, it could have been a jumping point for a “Palestinian” state.
They could have had 97% of the territories including parts of the old city in Jerusalem, but they disregarded it.
About the detailed plan, I don’t know where you took your information, but it talks about giving them sovereignty inside their territories, and connection between the Gaza and Judea and Samaria.
The Fact that the “Palestinian” refused just shows how belligerent people they are!
“Problems between Arabs and Jews started when the Zionist plan for a Jewish state in the region became clear, along with its implications for Arabs who correctly feared they would be ethnically-cleansed (which they were) from present-day Israel. The UN says 710,000 Arabs were turned into refugees. The Deir Yassin massacre of Arabs being an example of what I call Zionazism – the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs to make way for Jewish colonists. ”
800,000 jews fled Arab countries.
This idea that the Arabs are here from 700, is counting on history, just like the Jews are here for more than 2000 years!
The Arabs have come here (most of those who live in the Israel – Judea and Samaria area) after the Jews, and they are those Arabs who demand the country.
Your historical facts are somewhat twisted for your own pro-”Palestinian” agenda.
Your not an objective observer and that shoyuld be mentioned here!
“Your not an objective observer and that shoyuld be mentioned here!”
And you are I suppose!
BB “If they (the 1967 borders) were undefendable then Israel would have lost those wars.”
You are obviously not a military strategist. Just because had Israel had better weaponry and was better organised, does not been that the borders were defendable. Take the example of the Golan Heights by overlooking Northern Eastern Israel they meant that a huge part of Israel was constantly under the thread of attack. Under the pressent circumstanc es that the Golan Heights will ever come under Syrian conrol again.
“You also neglect to mention the expulsion of 710,000 Arabs from their homes by the Israeli forces in 1948 prior to the first Arab-Israeli war.” I have no intention of re-fighting the Israeli War of Independence here because it has little or nothing to do with the situation as it exists today. If there is any lesson it is that the it was the Arab countries that defied the UN borders in the twin state solution and it ended up costing Palestinians their state. Arabs invaded in 1967 and lost more land. It semms that some people are stupid enough to make the same costly mistake again and again. Don’t blame those that take advantage of that stupidity.
I see from your immediate rush to hit the “whatabouterty button” that you do not dispute the status of Israel as the only democracy in the area.
Thankfully since the start of this thread, Israel has started to follow up it’s air strikes with a limited land invasion. I believe that the Hizbollah threat is being reduced and that once again the lessons of the past are being repeated.
“I see from your immediate rush to hit the “whatabouterty button” that you do not dispute the status of Israel as the only democracy in the area.”
Yes I do. The Lebanese govt is elected and I recall the West welcoming its election and Bush calling for Israel’s actions not undermining the Seniora govt.
I mentioned earlier the pervausive fear that is in the Israeli mindset, I neglected to mention the humiliation/ lose of face that the Arab world suffered after the 1967 conflict. This i think should not be ignored as it plays it own part in the problems.
Anti-Semitism and opposing the current criminal behavior of the Israeli government are totally different things; and those who try to muddy the waters here are doing no favors to israel or the Jewish people. I find it particularly galling when christians cry anti-Semites, as without Christianity there could be no anti semitism, as Robert Runcie a former Arch Bishop of Canterbury so eloquently pointed out in memorial speech to those who were murdered in Auschwitz.
Of course just as all those who oppose zionism are not anti semites, nor of course are all christians, although before condemning all muslims as being anti semite, it might help if certain christians had a look at there own religions history in regard to Jews.
Brian has demolished Keith’s argument about the 67 borders not being defendable, indeed one of the reasons the British State no longer needs a military presence in the north of ireland is the technology is now available to protect the Western approaches of England without having a physical presence across the Irish sea. The same is true of the Gollan heights and West bank the continuing occupation of which has little to do with security but is a straight land grab.
In any case no one is suggesting that Israel should withdraw from anywhere without negotiations and a solid framework for peace that centers on the right of Israel to exist being guaranteed by international powers such as the EU, Russia, China and yes despite all the damage Bush has done,the USA.
Once such a treaty was signed by the Israelis and its neighbors, and Israel withdrew to the commonly recognized international border of Israel which came into being in 1948. If any country were to attempt to invade Israel or indeed if it did the same to any of its neighbours, then as happened with the treaty between the UK and Poland in 1939, the guaranteeing powers would declare war on which ever nation broke the said treaty.
Israel has every thing to gain by going down this road of peace and little to loose, however when I hear people going on about
Judea and Samaria, I fear far to many newcomers to Israel live in la la land, seemingly believing the land of the free will protect them and bank roll their extravagance in eternity.
‘The State of Israel, in disregard to international law and the Geneva Convention…as described in Article 33 of the Geneva Convention’
Shay:
Is there any chance you could give as detailled an account of what statutes and/or conventions Hezbollah and Lebanon have disregarded in attacking Israel, taking prisoners, and firing rockets at Israeli cities?
Or will you continue to ignore what started all of this?
I must say I’ve rarely read such a one-sided description of anything. I’d say you have your mind made up in advance regarding who the good guys and the bad guys are in this situation.
Don’t you have anything to say about the actions of Hezbollah and Lebanon?
As the man said in another post, did the Israelis react to something that happened to them, or are they just doing this for fun? You present it as the latter.
‘Hezbollah won 35 seats in the last Lebanese elections out of 128 members gaining around 30% of the popular vote so I disagree on them not having a mandate.’
Brian:
Wouldn’t that be a mandate to take part in the political life of Lebanon?
I think that David is referring to a mandate from the people of Lebanon to fire endless amounts of rockets on Israel.
As a comparison, if PSF ever got into government in the ROI, would that entitle the PIRA to fire rcokets from the ROI into NI?
“Don’t you have anything to say about the actions of Hezbollah and Lebanon?
As the man said in another post, did the Israelis react to something that happened to them, or are they just doing this for fun? You present it as the latter.”
I would prefer to label Israel’s action as an over-reaction. The Provos kidnapped British soldiers but the British didn’t launch a blitz on Dublin or Cork.
‘I doubt few who vote, support or are members of either SF or Hizbullah would consider those organization as extremists.’
mickhall:
True, but then they are all political fanatics, aren’t they?
They are people who see nothing abnormal or wrong about doing things like planting bombs in litter bins in Warrington in order to kill British shoppers, or sending suicide bombers into Israeli restaurants to kill civilian diners. They can think whatever the fcuk they like about themselves, but to normal people they ARE extremists.
They sit around and make up endless excuses to justify such behaviour, but that’s just a sign of their extremism.
‘Thus we should all be careful about using such words’
No we shouldn’t. Extremists should be called what they are.
I’ve never considered planting a bomb in order to kill civilians, and that’s why I’m not an extremist. But the PIRA and Hezbollah routinely did/do such things. That’s why they are considered to be extremists, even though they will of course claim it’s all justified.
‘just because the US and UK governments regard them as such’
Err…no. It’s because normal people see them as such.
Does everything have to be at the behest of the US and UK governments? I don’t agree with what the US and UK governments are doing in Iraq, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are both correct in calling Hezbollah extremists. Hezbollah says that Israel has no right to exist. Given what the implication of this is, I’d say that’s a prety extreme viewpoint.
‘Before anyone condemns Hizbullah alone for the current conflict, I suggest they clock up the man hours members of the IDF have spent in Lebanon or its skys during the last 35 years’
Mick – do you ever drop the trendy-lefty mantra of it all being Israel’s fault? Israel withdrew from Lebanon on 2000, so is your point really ‘never mind that – Israel deserves all it gets because it was in Lebanon for a couple of decades’?
It’s all a chicken and egg situation. Israel only went into Lebanon in the 80s to stop exactly what has just happened again – attacks on Israel from Lebanon. At that time it was the PLO attacking Israel. Israel moved in to provide a buffer zone to prevent further attacks. But eventually they left, when they thought it was safe to do so.
In this current situation it is the fault of no one but Hezbollah. Israel was not in Lebanon, and Hezbollah statred the aggression, on the same pattern as the PLO before them.
If we transpose this to the local situation, I presume that if there ever was a united Ireland, and some IR outfit thought it would be a good idea to keep on bombing GB anyway that you would support them, given the supposed suffering of the Irish people over whatever time period you decided to choose.
Could you for once take off your lefty glasses and look at reality? Hezbollah started this current situation.
‘Perhaps we should be asking ourselves what has motivated it to do this’
Nice conspiracy theory, but I’d like you to explain exactly how Bush and the Israelis got Syria and Iran to give Hezbollah rockets, and then got Hezbollah to attack Israel.
‘to do something against their best interest, they would not consciously do it and not would hizbullah, not if it wished to maintain any support that is.’
mickhall:
If Hezbollah used a nuke against Israel you’d support them on the ‘yes, but whatabout the things that the Israelis have done for decades’ theory.
As for Hezbollah doing things that are not in their best interest, exactly what makes sense in this situation?
Given what the Israelis normally do, what did Hezbollah think would happen if they attacked Israel this time? Surely they knew that Israel would do exactly what it is doing, and that Lebanon could end up being occupied again. That doesn’t make much sense to me.
It makes no sense for Hezbollah to have done what they have done, unless their objective is to start a regional war that Syria and Iran can get into. Lebanon will be occupied again and that doesn’t do Hezbollah any local good at all, since they will be the main party to suffer out of all of this.
This is war via a proxy. Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon and there was/is no good local reason for anyone in Lebanon to attack Israel. Maybe Hezbollah had decided to give politics a chance, but seeing that they were never going to gain overall control of a peaceful Lebanon they decided to provoke a regional war.
‘I would prefer to label Israel’s action as an over-reaction. The Provos kidnapped British soldiers but the British didn’t launch a blitz on Dublin or Cork.’
Brian:
What would have been a reasonable Israeli reaction then?
You are right of course about the British. But of course there would have been no point in taking such action because the PIRA murdered every prisoner that they took, so trying to recover them would have been pointless.
“Does everything have to be at the behest of the US and UK governments? I don’t agree with what the US and UK governments are doing in Iraq, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are both correct in calling Hezbollah extremists. Hezbollah says that Israel has no right to exist. Given what the implication of this is, I’d say that’s a prety extreme viewpoint.”
Do you think Kim Howell’s comments today criticising Israel are also correct?
“It’s all a chicken and egg situation. Israel only went into Lebanon in the 80s to stop exactly what has just happened again – attacks on Israel from Lebanon. At that time it was the PLO attacking Israel. Israel moved in to provide a buffer zone to prevent further attacks. But eventually they left, when they thought it was safe to do so.”
And why were the PLO shelling them? Because they have illegally occupied Palestinian land since 1967. Israel made its own bed. It can get out of that bed when it ends its relentless colonisation of the West Bank and gets out of it.
“What would have been a reasonable Israeli reaction then?”
They should have waited first to see if negotiations would breed results as in the past. Previous problems like this have been resolved by prisoner swaps, and that could have been a solution. If that did not bear fruit, then surgical strikes could have been tried, instead of Dresdenisation which is what is happening now.
“Is there any chance you could give as detailled an account of what statutes and/or conventions Hezbollah and Lebanon have disregarded in attacking Israel, taking prisoners, and firing rockets at Israeli cities?”
Well harpo, truth be told I am only here to provide enough rope for apologists for Israeli punishment bombings to hang themselves with.
There is no argument to be won, this is more about making people who visit the blog see how easilly fans of Zionism and western colonialism in general can come up with justfictions for blowing up children with precision munitions.
What sport, eh?
‘But maybe there’s little to wonder at – those corrupted by years of a “jaw jaw” aimed at accommodating IRA barbarians are perhaps damaged goods. They just can’t QUITE bring themselves to accept that Hezbollah and Hamas are killers’
David:
It’s no wonder at all. They have their black and white positions so well defined that it is simply kneejerk reaction to actual events. To these folks the British and Israelis are bad and anyone who opposes either of them are good and thus have to be understood.
As you say, they are so used to defending things like the Warrington bombs as ‘legitinate military actions’, that they have no morals left. So it simply becomes a case of automatic condemnation of anything the British or Israelis do, and justification of anything the opponents do. To the point that the British and Israelis don’t actully have to do anything specific, but are still to blame for what they made the poor PIRA or Hezbollah do. Whether that be a suicide bomb in Israel or a pub bomb in England. ‘They forced us to do it’ is the cry.
It’s madness.
‘I believe that it is, on balance, fair to say that Irish Nationalism has become so morally corrupted that it now lines up pleading for the Jihadi, for the suicide bombers, for those who love death and can’t even see the shadow of its own risibility.’
Amen.
We’ve seen that with post after post here. Hezbollah can do anything and they will defend it, under the usual MOPE rules, such as ‘but look at what the Israelis have done’.
The only real thing that they have in common with groups like Hezbollah is that they are all extremists who think that any and all political violence (including straight up terrorism) is justified. That’s why they say things like suicide bombers have to be excused because of where they grew up, and that Sean Kelly is a man of peace.
Do you recall the last three or four times you tried to peddle a lie in a response to me?
They loan ambulances to Hamas, the better to move their bombs and personnel
That is a lie. This poster is referring to a 2004 incident in Gaza in which a group of gunmen stopped a UNRWA ambulance, placed an injured comrade inside, jumped in and then < href="http://archive.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=29509">forced the driver at gunpoint to drive to the hospital.
they film Hizbollah incursions into Israel, then hide the tape so as to preserve their “neutrality” and generally do a great deal to make things easier for the tangos.
Another lie. An Indian UN peacekeeper ONCE taped the SCENE of the taking of IDF personnel hostage in July of 2000 HOURS AFTER IT HAPPENED, no Hezbollah, no people, only cars and clothes and blood.. This was a UN peacekeeping intelligence asset therefore absolutely neutral without the coy quotes and also absolutely secret. Ya get it kid? Think intelligence, G-2, secrets, the CIA, the NSA, the Patriot Act, you know, like secret.
Myself, I wouldn’t even have given the Israelis an edited version they got when they had their little tantrum after they found out about the tape— I woulda told them to go piss up a rope. The UN really pussied out there. Here Hezbollah was right, the Israelis bullied the peacekeepers into being their spies.
Its a matter of US politicians having a low threshold for anything that looks like a quagmire, otherwise the known as the “Vietnamization” of every conflict. I also don’t seem to remember any liberals calling for standing fast
One: That was not a denial of what I said. My point stands and Ronnie got reelected. BTW how would that whataboutry about those liberal scuzbuckets ever address my point?
Two: “Vietnamization” as implemented by MACV was a tactic of withdrawal and redeployment, i.e., cut and run, Peace With Honor, yada, yada, yada, and not a definition for quagmire. RVN was a quagmire long anyone crafted the word, Vietnamization. No one was ready to admit it yet.
Lastly, why is it necessary to peddle these lies to buttress an argument? You will always be found out just as Sideshow Bob will always step on that rake. Try the truth, it’s easier to remember.
That should read:
This poster is referring to a 2004 incident in Gaza in which a group of gunmen stopped a UNRWA ambulance, placed an injured comrade inside, jumped in and then forced the driver at gunpoint to drive to the hospital.
Brian Boru.
I’m not sure if you are aware of the Khazars from around the present day region of the Ukraine. Here is one website, there are lots of others;
http://www.khazaria.com/
These websites make the point that in all likelyhood the Jewish homeland might as well be in the Ukraine. This is because of the Khazeri people who were converted to Judaism and they as a people spread westwards to central Europe as a people, and are in essence the Jewish population of central and eastern Europe. I don’t know if it was Leon Uris or some kind of brainwashing, but I have always had a certain sympathy with Israel. This has not stopped me being aware of the horrors that have occured due to the building of that nation.
Moochin.
I hope your friends stay safe, the dilemma of emotional bonds to Israel in contrast to the images you have produced can’t be easy. I know the attacks and abducting of these soldiers is only the latest in a long line, but I doubt that Israel could not have reacted.
Is it not time people stopped repeating the fiction that Israel’s attacks on Gaza and Lebanon is about the capture of three members of the IDF, one by hamas militia and the other two by Hizbullah. I am genuinely interested wether those who keep punting this line really believe it.
harpo
I just wish those of you on this list who support the current crimes of the IDF in both Gaza and Lebanon, would deal with suggestions made here about an overall end to this conflict by Israel returning to its 1967 border, as they are required to by UN resolutions. In return the arab combatants who are currently in conflict with israel will recognize its right to exist within these borders.
The PLO, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon are already prepared to do this, hamas has hinted prior to the latest violence that they would be prepared to recognize israel via a permeant truce, which may lead further. Syria if Israel returns its land would also eventually come on board, as they are in no position to do anything else, as the Assad’s talk a good war but rarely fight one.
Thus there could be room for optimism but for Israel’s intransigence. Now at least ‘trendy leftists’ like I are looking for a solution, but the supporters of Israel especially on the other side of the pond seem to simple wish to cheer the IDF on when ever it commits violent acts.
After Iraq, when the most powerful military nation of earth has been unable to snuff out a committed guerilla army, why would the IDF do any better, after all their track record of fighting this type of war has been no better than the USAs.
So a questions to all you IDF groupies, how would you end the middle -east conflict-Isreal-Palestine-Lebanon. Plus why do you believe Israel will succeed in Lebanon circa 2006 when it failed to suppress Hizbullah on previous occasions.
Good day to all.
“As you say, they are so used to defending things like the Warrington bombs as ‘legitinate military actions’, that they have no morals left. So it simply becomes a case of automatic condemnation of anything the British or Israelis do, and justification of anything the opponents do. To the point that the British and Israelis don’t actully have to do anything specific, but are still to blame for what they made the poor PIRA or Hezbollah do. Whether that be a suicide bomb in Israel or a pub bomb in England. ‘They forced us to do it’ is the cry.”
Well I most certainly do not support what the Provos did so kindly don’t tar the Irish critics of Israel with that brush. We are just pointing out the societal context in which support for terrorists/insurgents is fomented and grows, namely a context of state-oppression, and ethno-religious political/economic discrimination. To deny this is to ignore why the Western countries are generally far more stable than the Middle East.
mickhall “Is it not time people stopped repeating the fiction that Israel’s attacks on Gaza and Lebanon is about the capture of three members of the IDF, one by hamas militia and the other two by Hizbullah. I am genuinely interested wether those who keep punting this line really believe it.”
I’m certainly not stating that that is why the Israelis are parts of Lebannon. The Israeli foreign minister is certainly not stating that that is why the Israelis are parts of Lebannon. The Israeli strikes are are not just a quick fix , tyhey are part of the only viable long term solution, the elimination of the threat from Hizbollah.
I have dealth with your nonsensical idea of returning to the 1967 borders. The idea of countries like Iran recognising Israel (even in those unworkable borders) is still far fethched.
I really can’y understand why people take this kind of ostrich approach. The global map is full of territory won in war and which will never be returned. Do you see Russia giving back half of Sakalin to Japan or Kaliningrad to Germany? No, these territories are likely to remain Russian for a long time to come, and just like Israel in the West Bank, settlement in the territory makes any return inmpossible. Jordan accepts this. Japan and Germany are paying for their invasions in WW2, and Jordan and Syria will continue to pay for theirs in 1967. Israel has shown itself to be very generous to neighbours who are willing to show good faith asd the deal to return Sinai to Egpty proved.
“Plus why do you believe Israel will succeed in Lebanon circa 2006 when it failed to suppress Hizbullah on previous occasions.”
Because world opinion has changed since 9/11. Now everyone accepts that leaving islamic terrorism to go unhindered is not an option.
I believe that the best solution to Lebannon is for Israel to be allowed to create the buffer if feels it needs to allow its people to go unthreatened and then allow a proper UN peace keeping mission into the area with the power to shoot on sight anything in the area. The area should become a UN protectorate (similar to Kosovo)
If and when the Hizbollah threat is gone then the area can be returned to Lebannon under negotiation and with the agreement of Israel.
‘I believe that the best solution to Lebannon is for Israel to be allowed to create the buffer if feels it needs to allow its people to go unthreatened and then allow a proper UN peace keeping mission into the area with the power to shoot on sight anything in the area. The area should become a UN protectorate (similar to Kosovo)
If and when the Hizbollah threat is gone then the area can be returned to Lebannon under negotiation and with the agreement of Israel.’
Keith:
Wise words.
However, Israel is now saying that they have hadenough of the buffer model, and this time they are going to try to nail Hezbollah. That’s a different kettle of fish altogether.
Given that Hezbollah started all of this, I don’t see why Israel isn’t entitled to try to reduce Hezbollah to a level where it is of little threat. The previous buffer idea didn’t work – Hezbollah just moves further back out of the buffer zone until Israel withdraws, then moves back in and sets up in the fashion we see today.
The obvious answer is to eliminate Hezbollah as a threat altogether, so that it can’t move back in to start more attacks once Israel moves back out of Lebanon.
“I really can’y understand why people take this kind of ostrich approach. The global map is full of territory won in war and which will never be returned. Do you see Russia giving back half of Sakalin to Japan or Kaliningrad to Germany? No, these territories are likely to remain Russian for a long time to come, and just like Israel in the West Bank, settlement in the territory makes any return inmpossible.”
They should scrap the settlements then. Illegal colonisation should not be rewarded. Comparisons with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is a typical example of the pro-Israel propaganda of the kind not unlike Netanyahu said today on Sky News comparing apples and oranges in the form of UK bombings of Germany after V2 rockets hit Britain. The Arab states are not Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan! Also, Kaliningrad is legally part of Russia, and Sakalin legally part of Russia, whereas Gaza, West Bank and Golan are NOT legally part of Israel. So you are not comparing like with like.
“I believe that the best solution to Lebannon is for Israel to be allowed to create the buffer if feels it needs to allow its people to go unthreatened and then allow a proper UN peace keeping mission into the area with the power to shoot on sight anything in the area. The area should become a UN protectorate (similar to Kosovo)”
Agree accept on the UN Protectorate. Put peace-keepers there but return political-control to Lebanon.