Bonfire Night
Forgive me if this doesn’t work, but I have had numerous comments and e-mails about my Flickr photies of the bonfire, and I also have this little bit of video. It was my first time to actually see the Tricolour being burned, and I was greatly saddened. I hadn’t fully appreciated that it is the highlight of the evening for many, and there was a huge cheer when it went up. Many people left the bonfire site at that point in time.
While I hold firmly to my view that the 12th can be morphed into something different, a little less threatening and a lot more fun, we have to remove this blatant and painful sectarianism. Yes, Yes, nationalists need to get their house in order, but goodness some parts of the Twelfth are agressively anti- catholic and would never make one feel at home.
MP and Jim:
Cheers for the info. Thankfully the band hall wasn’t on my “to-do” list for next time I’m over.
Mainlander:
“When I read this little gem, (leaving aside the intemperate language), the thought that crossed my mind was how very Col Blimpish the nationalist middle-class of Northern Ireland have become. I can just imagine you all “Disgruntleds of South Parade”, sitting in The Errigle, sipping your G &Ts, discretely reading the Daily Mail, complaining about how how the lower orders are affecting real estate prices in the “locality”. ”
This is obviously a well-rehearsed “gem” of your own that you trot out time and again as if it had just crossed your mind. Consequently you manage to be spectacularly off the mark with your presumptions. Never mind though, you managed to share your favourite caricature with the class. I bet that felt good.
My problem with the tramps who put a downer on an otherwise excellent area is not that they are working class (like me) or that they are loyalist (unlike me), but that they are clearly and deliberately anti-social.
So they can buck off to the band hall or wherever else will tolerate their behaviour. Everyone’s happy.
sec·tar·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sk-târ-n)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.
2. Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.
3. Narrow-minded; parochial.
if you use it in sense 1 it is self-defining (you have ascribed motives to an act made by what you have defined as a group)
If you use it in sense 2 it is incorrect
If you used it in sense 3 it loses all its impact
good posts on the twelfth by the way
Idunno
I was being lazy when I posted that wiki definition of sectarian, but I guess I am a wee bit weary too.
Burning the Irish Flag isnt done when they run out of tyres, wood or other inflammables.
It is a deliberate, purposeful and hate-filled act. You know, I was there this year, and it was just stunning to see the reaction. It was the highlight of the evening. I have another bit of video I might post where you hear people asking….. ‘Is it gone, is it gone, has it burned yet?’
When the tricolour burned, there was a huge cheer and applause, and a lot of the older folk started to go home, and some of the mothers and children left.
So that was it. That was the point of the night. To see the Tricolour burn on top of the bonfire.
And its not an accidental tricolour, like pink, yellow and purple…. It’s the flag of the Republic of Ireland, near neighbour and wanna be friend.
Burning the flag of my country on the 12th bonfire signifies that you are not too spoony with me. It means that you are destroying what I represent. It means that you cannot stand the sight of me. It means you wish me ill.
The Republic of Ireland that is being burned, is in some ways the ROI of years gone by, the ‘Home Rule/Rome Rule’ state that Northern Protestants seem to think is still lurking under neath the tail of the Celtic Tiger.
But guys, wise up….. that is sooooo yesterday. The ROI has moved on, shifted up and made good. It is no longer the catholic state that you love to hate.
But for a sole catholic standing at the side of the bonie on the 11th night, surrounded by happy, cheering, drinking protestants, it was a very lonely, sad and upsetting moment. And it felt sectarian from where I was stood
Mainlander
“Billy Pilgrim, what exactly, in less than your customary 250 words if you will, does a: “conspicuously loyalist-looking” youth look like?”
In the instance I’m referring to, they wore Rangers jerseys, and had Union Jacks and Ulster flags wrapped around their waists like sarongs. They also, of course, had the obligatory baseball caps, burberry, bling etc. I considered this to be “loyalist-looking”, and in this area the fact is that it is somewhat conspicuous. (53 words)
As for the Annadale Embankment being “an abomination, absolutely disgusting”, well, it is. The Embankment, that is – it’s covered in rubbish and debris. Your granny was talking about an area of a city, and clearly referring to the people who lived there as “absolutely disgusting”. Smirkyspice was referring to the bonfire site (Annadale Embankment is an open green area on the Lagan, and it IS a rat-infested rubbish dump.)
Nice try though, attempting to turn this into a class issue. As though threatening, anti-social gangs = working class. I know enough about, and have sufficient respect for working class people to know different thanks.
“when people burn the Stars and Stripes on the streets of Europe are they doing it simply out of a hatred for the American State and its citizens?”
In my experience, I’m sorry to say that the answer is yes. It’s one thing for Americans to burn the stars and stripes, but when you’re burning someone else’s flag, it’s dangerous. It’s warlike. When you do it ritually, then it seems like you’re settled into perpetual war. I have seen American flags, among others, being burned and it’s never an edifying sight. There are flags I don’t like, and I’m in favour of one’s right to burn a flag, but I’m personally dead against the exercising of that right.
The People’s Front of Judea
“This is obviously a well-rehearsed “gem” of your own that you trot out time and again as if it had just crossed your mind”
Have you seen it elsewhere?
Certainly not on this site.
I do believe it is the first time that I’ve shared it with the class on Slugger, who are more than used to seeing on this site, the most crudest of caricatures of working-class unionists and stereotyping of unionists generally. It’s not a nice feeling to see this constant demonisation and dehumanisation of people from my community day after day on here.
But I didn’t realise that people like yourself would be so sensitive if the tables were, for once, turned and a rather OTT generalisation was made in the other direction. Interesting.
Billy Pilgrim
“The annadale embankment is unique and harks back to the past when it was used as a sink estate by the Housing Executive.”
Not from Scareyspice, but Moochin’.
He’s talking of the estate, not the bonfire site here. And the use of that kind of terminology like “sink” usually precedes an anti-working-class scrounger tirade in one of the more right-wing rags. Perhaps Moochin will enlighten us further with what he means here…
And I’ll take your and others’ word that it is not just a class thing, all that talk of dropping real estate prices confused me;)
Re the burning of the Stars and Stripes and flags generally;
I’m not convinced that it is in every case simply done out of a hatred for the American State and its citizens.
More often than not, in certain locations, yes it is, but I also believe it *can be* an attempt, albeit inarticulate, to express an abhorence of the US government’s policies, the ever-increasing domination of US culture,the damaging effects of globalisation etc.
Is a student in Paris or Berlin burning the US flag, really showing how much he hates his fellow students in LA or New York or does he think in his own small way that he’s sticking two fingers up at Bush and American foreign policy?
Miss Fitz, I can appreciate what you’re saying about the alienation you felt around the bonfire, but I’m not 100% sure that anyone is trying to make the bonfires a cross-community event.
For many loyalists their ‘political views’ are based largely (probably too reliant, in fact) on defiance – defiance of the terretorial ambitions of Irish republicans. To compare the Irish Republic to a friend is a poor analogy – unless you’ve had a friend in the past who has had a desire to steal your house out from under you – but I think we’re in danger of deviating way off bonfires and burning tricolours if we go down the road of whether loyalists are right or wrong to be so aggressive in their defiance of republicanism.
As I’ve said before, in truth I can only really speak for myself, but the tricolour doesn’t represent ‘catholics’ but the Irish Republic and/or Irish republicanism.
My views on the issue would be different if these crowds wanted to build their tricolour-burning bonfire in the middle of the falls road, but I don’t see that happening any time soon. In their own areas at their own celebrations, I can understand why the burning of the tricolour is of such significance to people. It may not be the most articulate way of expressing their views (much like my posts on this thread), but I don’t know that that makes it an illegitimate expression.
Those (loyalists) who may see the tricolour as representing Catholics are in sore need of a political education – or even 5 minutes to think about it.
Mainlander,
“Harks back to the time when Annadale was used as a sink estate”
I suppose it comes from how Drumchapel in Glasgow was described to me many years ago and i applied the terminology.
My understanding was/is that people who had been thrown out of other areas (either by the locals or the authorities) ended up in designated estates(after often asking for a specific area). This policy caused many problems as you can imagine.In recent times it has changed tho there are a couple of estates in Downpatrick which would still have problems.
The comment was not made with the denigration of the working classes in mind it was descriptive (maybe too much for some eh) I am involved with community groups across all sectors of society here in NI and laugh at the suggestion that i would be a right winger(stop it my ribs are sore) and that (snicker snicker) i would be reading anything supporting the views ascribed to me by you.
btw
I live in shared rented housing very near the short strand/ albertbridge rd…handy for town, spacious enough and cheap but by feck it gets noisy sometimes!
oh if you ever do come back from the mainland and you happen to be in the area have a guiness in the errigle i can recommend it. G&T’s are soooo colonial don’t cha think?
Moochin
Thanks for the honesty of your answer.
So, in summary, you were giving us your opinion of the estate and the calibre of its residents as opposed to the present state of the embankment’s landscape.
(Note for Billy Pilgrim: Perhaps the comparision with Granny Mainlander’s non pc-ness wasn’t that stretched after all?)
“oh if you ever do come back from the mainland and you happen to be in the area have a guiness in the errigle i can recommend it. G&T’s are soooo colonial don’t cha think”
G & Ts colonial? Yes, perhaps.
Colonialism, the belief in and support for the system of one country or group of people controlling and imposing their beliefs on another. Just this once, I’ll resist the temptation to point out the rather obvious simile;)
And thanks for the recommendation, comrade. Supping Guinness is, indeed,great for the street cred, but I suspect that, given the season that we’re in, The Chattering Classes of Upper Ormeau are more likely to be sipping a nice glass of chilled Pimms at the minute;)
If i choose to have a pint of Guiness, it’s because i wanted one not because i needed to boost my street cred and it is more than likely that i was thirsty.
I’m not interested in turning this into a thread on class.
Unionists do get a bashing here and so what. I think that they deserve it….because of the intransigence of their Leadership (no laughing at the back of the class) this country is stuck in the past.
The country needs to stand on its own multi denominational feet and take steps towards a pluralist and all embracing democracy.
missfitz, you went on your own?? much respect, don’t you know anyone who could have brought you along?
I think that the flag burning is, as Beano says, defiance. Defiance against Republicans more than anything else, who fly it in Northern Ireland to show their territorial ambition. The origin is that Loyalist youths would ‘raid’ republican areas, bring a flag back and burn it. So they were burning flags erected in NI by republicans who were using them to claim NI for republicanism if you like.
I don’t think it has much to do with the ROI at all, it’s to do with rejecting an agenda that republicans have (perhaps wrongly) used the tricolour to represent.
There is another reason it may seem like the highlight. The flag is at the top, when it goes on fire the fire is fully lit. Most bonfires have something on top and when the fires reach that it is the climax- a guy or a rocket or something, but there’s always something on top. Invariably they dance about defying the flames that lick around them, teasing the crowds. Flags are new-ish, i don’t remember them on bonfires in my youth.
(also the fire i was at had a UDA flag on top too as the local heavies are UVF)
None of my arguments above should be taken to mean that I don’t think it is a particularly healthy aspect of loyalist culture, it is negative rather than positive, and emphasises what Unionists aren’t rather than what they are. I can clearly see that an Irish person would misinterpret it.
I should emphasise that i enjoy and value your posts, and am maybe in danger of being pedantic, but I don’t think that Sectarian is the right word and I think it is thrown around too easily sometimes.
idunno
is that an invitation for next year??
am touched and accept…..
will bring bottle of buckie and non-threatening icon to burn……
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/letters/story.jsp?story=698758
I think this young man has hit the nail on the head. If we had realised that it was the banner of truth being paraded, we’d be dropping our trousers for the orangemen, not opposing them!
“Unionists do get a bashing here and so what.”
“The country needs to stand on its own multi denominational feet and take steps towards a pluralist and all embracing democracy.”
Keep bashing Moochin’ and see how far it pushes us towards the pluralist and all-embracing democracy that both of us are after.
Dialogue’s the answer, not stereotyping and the constant demonisation of a complete community, which appears in far too many comments on Slugger nowadays. If you and others are really interested in engaging Unionists in debate on here, then think about some of the terminology and lazy descriptions you’re using.
Having said all that, might well see you in the Errigle for a Guinness, next time I’m back (it’s sort of in the neighbourhood;)), but only if you promise not to bash me
mainlander are you sure i’m middle class? my bank doesn’t think so..i’m usually one paycheque away from having to move out of an ormeau rd rental and in with mum-in-law on a ‘loyalist’ working class housing estate.. and referring to me as scareyspice is out of order.. think about your own stereotyping and lazy descriptions.. the annadale bonfire site is a sight for sore eyes, and it makes me feel sad that the people who made the mess don’t clean it up. i don’t like the bonfires, i don’t think they do anyone any good.
Sorry about the name-change Smirky-spice,
While you and one or two others may have been talking about the bonfire, as Moochin admitted, he was talking specifically about the type of people who lived on the Annadale estate. And I don’t think your mum in law would be happy to see the kind of generalisations made of those who live on “loyalist” working-class estates on this and other threads.
And if my slightly OTT generalisations have shaken some of the more thoughtful commentators on this thread out of their usual “holier-than -themmuns” complacency,then so much the better. Won’t do them the slightest harm to be on the receiving end of a bit of reverse stereotyping for once, it’s always the poor old w/c Unionists who get too much of a bashing (oops sorry, Moochin;)) on Slugger
And finally ignore what your bank-manager tells you, you be whatever class you wanna be, dont forget it’s your overdraft that pays his wages.
Mainlander….
I was merely commenting on how the estate came into being and not on the people there.
Wind ure neck in
“I was merely commenting on how the estate came into being and not on the people there.”
Then I suggest you do a bit more research about how the estate originally came into being.