Reclaiming ‘Ulster’
A post on ie-politics got me thinking..
Marianne Elliot, in the prologue to her book The Catholics of Ulster, says that few Catholics today would admit to an “Ulster” identity, even less than those who adhere to a “Northern Ireland” allegiance. Elliot argues that it is surely high time for Ulster Catholics to re-assert their regional identity and challenge the view that “Ulster” necessarily means Protestant.
The point rang true with me – when I go to watch Irish rugby games, I sometimes take an Ulster flag (I wouldn’t fly the Tricolour at rugby, as it’s an all-Ireland team) – and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been abused by southernerns for a percieved Britishness (the abusers tend not to realise the meaning of the nine-county flag).
So – on this, one of the most high-profile days in ‘Ulster’ – is it time Nationalists started reclaiming the identity?
What is it about repartitionists that makes them go on and on?
But since we are stuck with you, I will at least try to bargain you down. The idea that County Antrim has a large and unassailable Unionist majority is quite false. Given that Co Antrim is no longer an administrative unit and no one is keeping records, this is often hard to tell.
The vast number of Nationalists in the West Belfast ghetto almost counter balances the comfortable Unionist majority in the rest of the
country. Given that the West Belfast nationalists are gradually moving out into places like Glengormley, Antrim and Ballymena, it is not unreasonable to suppose that this county will eventually have an evenly distributed Nationalist majority.
If you came from Antrim and not from Dublin you might have some sensitivity in this matter.
The overwhelmingly Unionist section of the province is in the North Eastern part of County Down. The three adjacent constituencies of North Down, Ards and East Belfast are the three most protestant and most Unionist constituencies in the province and the Catholic community in them is probably declining.
Would this not be a suitable site for your Orange state?
But to get back to the proposed incorporation of Unionists into the Irish body politic. What would happen, I imagine, would be that the UUP would align itself with Fine Gael and the DUP perhaps with Labour.
The SDLP would go with Fianna Fáil, which would need to form an alliance with Sinn Féin to obtain power.
Thanks PR for your suggestion . As I said it should be left to a neutral international agency . The new 7 super District Councils will have clear Nationalist majorities in 3 and Unionists in the remaining 3 . Belfast seems to be edging towards a small permanent nationalist majority.
‘If you came from Antrim and not from Dublin you might have some sensitivity in this matter.’
We’re not known for our sensitivity PR
We don’t do sensitive ‘bonfires’ quite like the folks in Ahoghill etc etc etc . A civic failing I’m afraid . Just the facts and the numbers will do .
From you post I have to assume you too are preparing for another 50 years of deja vu go nowhere NI politics a la present farce ? More no talks about no talks plus various attempts at resurrecting powerless Assemblies where the opposing parties can continue to not talk to each other directly and have to use the offices of a British minister to communicate?
Or have you some other solution which is preferable to an agreed repartition ?
What would happen, I imagine, would be that the UUP would align itself with Fine Gael
A mix of the blind and the bland each going nowhere .
‘ and the DUP perhaps with Labour. ‘
Reminds me of an old new joke
What do you get when you cross an elephant with a bunny ?
Squashed rabbit
The “neutral international agency” is another one of my gripes against you. This approach has already been tried, in 1923-5, as I am sure you
know. The Unionists were easily able to see that one off, by a mixture of obstructionism, string-pulling and judicious threats. Obviously anyone so green as to put their faith in something as vague as that deserves to be cheated.
Never have an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings are going to be. (Yes, Prime Minister)
No, if you want there to be repartition, why not just create a shopping list and we can put ourselves on it? Just rule that any county or section of a county which wishes to transfer to the Irish Republic, should be allowed to do so by referendum. Who appointed you negotiator? Are there any plans to up their dosage? You don’t sound much like a hard man for a bargain.
As for “another 50 years of deja vu go nowhere NI politics a la present farce” just look at the voting as it stands:
http://www.electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2004E&cons=192
How long do you think this is going to last? Look at the figures for the Unionist 1st preference vote in the European Parliament election:-
1979: 60.8%
1984: 58.0%
1989: 57.8%
1994: 55.4%
1999: 52.3%
2004: 48.6%
What will their vote be in 2009 and 2014? Are the go nowhere politics of the 6 cos so much worse than Today in the Dáil?
PaddyReilly,
‘The “neutral international agency” is another one of my gripes -This approach has already been tried, in 1923-5, as I am sure you
know. ‘
The Boundary Commission was neither neutral nor was it’s remit taken seriously by either the Free State /Unionists/or Westminster. The Irish Free State in 1923 was in the middle of a Civil War and the State was barely in existence . Britain was in 1923 still the major world power.
Today both the UK and the Irish Republic are members of the EU/UN and Britain is no longer an Empire . Unionists no longer have the power or influence they had in 1923 .
I’m making the point that ‘repartition ‘ is a viable and feasible solution and preferable to another 50 years of no talks about no talks, agreements which don’t agree, and about the huge waste of time and taxpayers money that NI sucks into the bottomless pit of it’s 70% public sector economy. If at first you don’t succeed than by all means try again but after 40 years of trying to find ‘agreement’ within a 6 county context the political parties representing both tribes have demonstrably failed .
I would not use the European elections as a predictor of Unionist sentiment for any Border referendum . A Border referendum would increase the turn out of Unionists more so than any other election.
‘Are the go nowhere politics of the 6 cos so much worse than Today in the Dáil?’
The Republic has elections and we even change Governments and our Coalitions are voluntary .
What you have in NI is an Assembly that never sits for long enough to blow it’s nose -politicians who will not speak directly to each other face to face – and an agreement which can only be described as farcical .
Greenflag, which side of the divide would you be living in if this where to happen? i know personally that being from a 90% nationalist town in south down that we would be glad to get rid of the disgraceful unionist system once and for all, but would have fears for our fellow irishmen trapped behing the walls of the orange death machine.
Secondly would you retain the name NI for this new orange statelet? Obviously the republic would be extended. Not even the most confused unionists (and there are many) could now claim to call this new loyalist-riddled fuckhole Ulster. Would ulidia be their choice? I dont think so as this would exclude downpatrick, which was one of its major centres. Or ulster-scots land. Its hard to know which warped version of history is currently doing the rounds in the unionists psyche.
‘being from a 90% nationalist town in South Down that we would be glad to get rid of the disgraceful unionist system once and for all’
Repartition will enable the vast majority of Irish nationalists in NI to look past ‘unionism’ and it’s perennial perambulations and it’s going nowhere politics . The NI nationalist focus would change to Ireland and the wider world as part of a fast growing multi cultural democracy and away from the narrow ground of eternal sectarian politics from which , IMO , a 6 county NI State can never escape.
‘but would have fears for our fellow irishmen trapped behing the walls of the orange death machine. ‘
What walls ? There is no wall between the present ROI and NI and there would be no wall between the new Unionist State and ROI either . Just a new line on the map . Recently I looked at a map of the world from the 1960′s . You would be amazed at the number of borders that have been redrawn , new countries , particularly in Africa and Eastern Europe since that time . Just a few weeks back Montenegro came into existence as a separate state . Czechoslovakia had a ‘velvet glove ‘ self agreed division into the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic .
There is no earthly reason why Northern Ireland cannot have a Czech style separation.
As for those Irish people remaining within the new Unionist State they would retain their rights to automatic Irish citizenship just as those British Unionists ‘condemned ‘ to live in an expanded Irish Republic would retain their rights to automatic British citizenship . Unionists resident in the new Unionist State would have the same rights to Irish citizenship that present day citizens of the Irish Republic have to British citizenship . In practice if Unionists from the new State wanted Irish citizenship this would mean taking up residency in ROI and applying in the normal way just like any other foreign national. In the unlikely event of a UI in the future Unionists of the former Unionist State would automatically regain their right to Irish citizenship.
Both new ‘minorities’ would have dual citizenship if they wished it .
In practice as we are all EU members we would all share the same rights . I don’t foresee any orange ‘death machine’ in any new Unionist State nor an equivalent green ‘death machine’ in an enlarged Republic .
Instead both States would settle down quickly to the new situation. Real politics could resume in the new Unionist State. The nonsense of forced power sharing and convoluted political formulae to decide election representation could be consigned to the next 12th bonfire. In addition the pathethic tokenism of appointing politicans to Council /City positions such as Mayor /Deputy Mayor etc on the basis of ‘It’s the Protestant/Catholic’s turn can be consigned to history.
As to what a new Unionist State would be called ?
. Northern Ireland would no longer be appropriate . North East Ireland sounds odd . East Ulster might evoke objections?
North West Brittania ? Anyway their business .
I’m sure nomenclature would be the least of Unionist politicans concerns .
As I said earlier the focus for NI nationalists should be the future of Ireland and it’s economic/social and political development not on the eternal ‘navel gazing’ of NI sectarian politics.
What do you know about him? Was he one of the Killiney Coopers? If so, I suspect a family tie …
I don’t know anything about Cooper, other than a last-resort google I did which says that he fought at Gallipoli, and that he was a former Unionist MP. But I do intend to ask around like I have had to do for the Dockrells.
Unfortunately, I probably won’t have much luck because the Dockrells were the only high-profile, non-Sinn Fein southern protestant TDs in the early 20C.
Thats not to say that we haven’t had high-profile TDs from a Protestant background in the early 20C – we have (e.g. Dr Kathleen Lynn, Darrell Figgis, Robert Barton, Ernest Blythe, Countess Markievicz), but they were members of the Shinner ascendency class so they don’t count.
Excuse me gents, could anyone tell me if there is any significance to the Ulster province flag having a closed red hand or a open thumb one, just wondering not wishing to state there is one.