What the Twelfth means to me…
Talkback featured its annual July 11th discussion on bonfires, including this one in Ballycraigy, Antrim. To the left of the bonfire is a bouncy castle, as well as face painters, much to the delight of the many children gathered at the site. The message here, however, is clear. The prominent siting of the ‘Kill All Taigs’ tricolour is a frightening reminder of what this day is all about for many nationalists: a ritual baptism of a tribal hatred of catholics. That may seem- or indeed be- unfair to many raised in the unionist tradition, but nevertheless it remains the over-riding perception of nationalists to the Orange celebrations that are now upon us.
For my benefit, I would invite personal experiences and perceptions- particularly from unionists- of the 11th Night and the Twelfth, and particularly what changes would be necessary- or even desirable- to alter perceptions of the meaning of the celebrations or to transform it into an occasion in which the political baggage can be left behind (if those are in themselves goals worth striving for.)I would like to urge posters to avoid the temptation to engage in ‘whataboutery’ in their contributions and instead treat each post on its merits as the genuine thoughts and sentiments of each respective contributor.
sorry joe, didn’t mean to slight you, just didn’t like the way I read yours – as if one was conditional of the other.
joeCanuck “Catholics have a right to live without fear of intimidation.
There is obviously a huge gap.
Does anyone have any suggestion of what to do about starting to bridge that gap, other than shouting at each other?”
Yeah – Ban the GAA
See the light
Stop shouting
Aaron
Apology not needed but welcomed anyway. We can have different points of view. I, perhaps, wasn’t clear in what I meant to say.
I think we’re agreed.
A saying I heard a while back comes to mind:
Your absolute right to punch me in the face ends just before your fist hits my nose.
Concerned Loyalist
“It is a new suit since last July to this July I have lost over 3 stone and 6” off my waist (giving up cider does have it’s advantages).”
Well done. That is quite something.
You can cut a better figure on parade this year.
I am from the NY but my people are from Derry and I have been to Ireland loads of times, I am dying to see what all the fuss is about with the bonfires. Although I am all for the Nationalist cause, I am not sure if I would be insulted or intrigued by them?
Don’t go there RoryYank
You won’t like it unless you go to a small one in some little village.
And even there, don’t give the slightest hint that you sympathise with the Nationalist cause.
Nice post by lofty – enjoy your day out, sir.
Now who else noticed that the peace process IS starting to work?
What are the Loyalists doing with that nasty KAT flag?
Are they going to burn it? And destroy such a great slogan?
Maybe they’ll have a debate. You know, like the sadist wondering whether or not to whip the masochist.
Political advice required. Where are those singed loyalists when you need ‘em?
Oi Davey, over here!
Unfortuneatley my experiences of the eleventh night are not as festive as some other posters.
I remember leaving home a young lady one year who was of a different ‘hue’ than myself. I had been courting this girl for some time. When we got close to her estate she said she would walk the last ten minutes on her own as it may have been a bit risky for me to go any closer to the ‘boney’ site.
Just as I left her a crowd of ‘revellers’ appeared and began calling her various names and questioning her choice of boyfriend due to my religious background. She urged me to go on home.
I was literally only two minutes down the road when a car past and stopped about twenty yards ahead of me. The occupants got out, armed with red, white and blue taped ‘band poles’ and various other heavy blunt instruments. When I turned to go in the opposite direction there was a sizeable crowd of young lads similarly tooled up running towards me.
I took off through some back yards and managed to evade capture for about a mile and a half.
Without going into the gruesome details it is enough to say I spent the following bank holidays as a resident in the local hospital.
Now some people may say things have changed but unfortunatley I don’t see a great deal of change around the numerous bonfire sites in this town. There may be a bouncy castle beside the ‘boney’ but they still want to ‘Kill All Taigs’.
Joe Canuck,
Darkness at Noon certainly has the power to exercise the mind. It did mine some 45 years ago. I since see it as all devious smoke and mirrors employing the earnest tools of introspection and conscience for a partisan cause.
Koestler’s later career as a promoter of belief in ghosties and ghoulies and things that go bump in the night do nothing to shake my revised opinion.
Pith,
No. My Pioneer mate was the one among us who declined to drink the nectar of the sirens. Good job too – it was his alertness saved our bacon.
Never mind who’ll squeal to Herself. It would be too daunting a taskfor the faint-hearted.
UlsterScot,
I cannot say how much I appreciate you making things so clear. I had never quite appreciated the (now perfectly understandable reasons) for burning fenian flags and effigies of Pope, the Antichrist before but now that you have made it all so simple I feel quite ashamed of myself and indeed a little bit guilty.
All the moreso because I too have been guilty of offending Orange tradition and sensibilities by naively suggesting respect for one’s neighbours and such heretical nonsense.
Clearly the only way I can expiate my guilt and shame is to offer myself for burning upon a twalfth bonefire.
Should I fatten up first for a bit more sizzle do you think or do you prefer more the dry snap of exploding bones? I do want to get things right.
Nice try, but Karl Rove still wins the prize for ‘post most dripping with sarcasm’ tonight.
RoryYank
“I am dying to see what all the fuss is about with the bonfires”
More than likely the fuss at the bonfire will be your dying. Oh God I hope not.
According to someone on politics, i.e., “a bonfire in Ahoghill had a flag at the top of it saying “F**k Mickey Bo”. This was a trend across the Ballymena area – the bonfire next to the chapel in Harryville had a flag at the top saying “Mickey-Bo”.
Do Orangemen and Unionists on thie forum support this action? Is this what Orangeism stands for? If so then I can’t say I’m surprised!
This is on the Current Affairs thread there btw entitled “Sick display at Ballymena bonfires”.
How a sectarian bonfire riot turned into a tourist attraction, but still kept a bit of protestant bite.
Lewes bonfire night
I’ve been in Lewes on bonfire night. It isn’t in the least bit scary from a catholic point-of-view.
But it takes time. You can’t just throw money at it and call it a tourist attraction.
RoryYank,
I would heed the advice given above if I were you. Bonefire night is not a welcoming or safe time for ‘strangers’ much less ‘stranfers’ from a nationalist background whatever their present nationality.
Watch Mel Brook’s Blazing Saddles again and try to imagine yourself as the black sherriff and you might get an idea of the reception that might await you. Or imagine walking into an LA ‘Crip’ ‘hood sporting the wrong colours.
It would be fairly safe though to watch some of the parades on the following day and I’m sure your compatriot, our own dear Miss Fitz, would be happy to advise you there.
But please don’t let our concerns over attending at Bonefire Night deter you from coming to enjoy what else is on offer.
Fair Deal / Rory
Just wanted to congratulate you both on excellent posts.
Concerned Loyalist
And fair play to you! Losing three stone is some going. Must be all the worry, eh Concerned?
“And fair play to you! Losing three stone is some going. Must be all the worry, eh Concerned?”
It was me that lost the weight but, yes, it is all that worry! The UPRG work is taking it’s toll.
Back from a quite twelfth. It rained a fair bit.
To all those going to Scarva tomorrow – good luck. The car park is already a bog no doubt!.
ok I went on a bit of a tour of the bonfires in east Belfast.
There are still lots of little bonfires in the roads around here and these are burnt through the evening, we wandered around them and the whole area had a party atmosphere, lots of streets blocked off and everyone out in the street and tables in the road and pensioners having tea and young ones wandering around drinking furiously coloured alcopops. Some of the the wee bonfires seemed to be perliously close to buildings.
I chatted to the ones at cluan place, they were very friendly, they discussed the merits of different bonfires. Apparantly this year Shankill was the biggest, Belvoir a disappointment and Bendigo street (my local one) far bigger than Pitt park, a reversal of last year.
Pitt park wasn’t very big at all, they had carefully cut wood to board up windows and were having a party and also had some sort of stage.
As the night went on there were more fireworks over the city, which i haven’t seen before.
We went down to Bendigo street to see that one, it was massive. Really big, like easy 5 storeys high. There was some bad rave being played on a speaker systems and lots of wee ‘warm up’ fires- this apparantly being for the kids who were too small to stay up till midnight, although they all seemed to anyway.
Just before midnight they switched to playing flute tunes (Hymn tunes), and Loyalist folk music. Anyone who hasn’t heard loyalists folk music should thank their lucky stars, being the worst sort of Daniel-O’Donnell-lite with plodding synth praising loyalists. The lowlight was a version of ‘Simply the Best’, which tried very hard to squeeze in a line about how the first batallion of the UVF was better than the IRA rabble. Seriously, try to make that rhyme, or indeed scan..
The fire was lit and basically collapsed in on itself, I think if anything it was too big. It got very hot, hot enough to make us retreat from where we were watching it 100 yards away.
Oh there were some tyres, so obviously the council need to do some work, although to be fair the tyre situation has improved a lot in the last 2 years, and i suppose thats more than i would have hoped for two years ago, so i will complain, but be quietly content things are getting better.
There were 5 tricolours on top, but I didn’t hear a roar when they went on fire, and although it’s obviously rude and a negative rather than positive expression of a culture, I don’t think this is ‘Sectarian’ (unless you think the tricolour is a Catholic flag)
The only other banner was one that said ‘do you like it’ on the bonfire. And people obviously did because we do respond to fire, it’s primal and dangerous and moves and dances..
There were probably about 1000 people there at midnight, although only a few hundred at ten to- all these peolpe just appeared, some of them quite middle class looking, but mainly working class, and a lot of excited kids and harassed parents, which takes me back to when i used to hassle my parents to go to the bonfire, even though they clearly didn’t want to have to content with the drunken youths around it.
So it was a party atmosphere around the place, and I enjoyed it actually, and so did my English friend I walked around with. Was it cross-community? no. Did I witness any agressive anti-Catholism, No (but I’m sure i could have). Could it ever be cross community? probably not, but it could become accessible to other communities. It does needs to be a lot of things, cleaner, less agressive, more organised and it is heading that way.
But at the end of the day it’ll take a lot of peace time to remove the overtones, and maybe eventually it’ll end up like the bonfires in England, which were banned as anti-Catholic hatefests a few centuries ago.
So there you go. The next day I got up and went surfing
Idunno
When we lived in Carrington Street, we always had our own wee bonfire (about 1/15th the size of the Bendigo Street one) at the bottom of the street. Our parents would lay out tables of sandwiches/snacks and we light the thing at about 10:30pm. We never had a tricolour on top, but usually my sister Angela had to sacrifice one of her dolls as an effigy! It was a great night for all involved (except Angela obviously!).
When I was younger the Twelfth would involve getting up at around 8am to see the Ravenhill Lodge parade down the road from Donard Street and then round to Ballymacarrett Orange Hall to see Number 6 leaving from Templemore Avenue. Now I am older (and in the Order) I have a few friends round on the Eleventh Night for a barbeque, we go and see the local bonfire (on the site behind the Holywood Arches library) and then get up a 6:30am to have a hearty breakfast (consisteing of barbeques sausages, eggs and a couple of rounds of toast) and over to Sandy Row for the start of the day.
Have any of you folk ever been to a bonfire? Are any of you folk even protestant or FROM northern ireland. Readin this blog it doesnt seem that way. Find something better to do rather than sit an stare at a computer, use big words to make yourself seem more intelligent and discuss things you know nothing about. Try the practical side for once then JUDGE other people and what they do and celebrate.
When I was young we would have a fantastic time collecting for the bonfire, it would occupy us for weeks and weeks, a discarded sofa was a treasure to us.
The site of the bonfire was a great place to hang out, build huts and stay up till the wee hours, all with parental approval as we “guarded our bony”
the 10th night was my favourite part, all those weeks of collecting would culminate in a supreme effort to get the bonfire built for the next nights festivities. I can’t recall anyone ever giving orders, but we seemed to work in unison everyone doing their part as the bony got bigger and bigger.
That was the good part. the eleventh ight would come and something would change, a perceptible shift in the air. it was still a time of celebration, but there was always an undeniable undercurrent of something dangerous and violent lurking in the background.
Where I grew up there was a faily of catholics, and all year round they were our neighbours and friends, but on the eleventh night they became the enemy. I don’t ever recall anyone ever phyically harming them, but I do recall muttered curses and allegations of treason levelled against them, even though they would also attend the bonfire.
I’m happy to come from the Unionist tradition, and I would fight tooth and nail for the traditions of unionism to stay, but maybe not all the traditions.
We need to be honest and get rid of the bad, or we’ll lose it all.
that same undercurrent of violence and hate still exists, it’s stupid and dangerous to deny this.
It’s time we put that sectarian bullshit on top of the fire and burned it.
Kristallnacht
lol SGB not entirely off the mark but not exactly helpful either
I will confess I am NOT a northerner, a catholic or a taig
But from what I have seen from trying to learn about NI(I have my own reasons) I do not think that the nationalists would object so much to the bonfires if they went back to the local wee bonfire in the park or street where the localised population could gather around and celebrate the 11th, this they could understand and take on board as part of your culture instead of an instuement of intimidation
2nd they dont object to your marching up and down the street even with the drunken gits, they just ask that you stay to where you are wanted and leave the areas alone where you arent wanted. Not to much to ask really is it. they havent asked you to quit marching just to quit marching in front of THEIR homes.
you want this to go quietly then just be human.
walk your selves silly just walk where you are wanted, no one has said don’t march at Drumcree they just said don’t walk down the Garvaghy.
Although I am not from Northern Ireland (I’ve lived here, errr 13 years now) I have to admit that I am fascinated with the idea of going to see the bonfires, but also somewhat scared of the spides that seem to hang around them.
My main experience of the 12th is not being able to get plumbing equipment as all the plumber shops are closed down (B&Q don’t have the bit I need) and not getting into the places I want to at lunch as they are either closed or massively busy.
I will make a vague effort to see a bonfire tonight.
Why don’t we tell the gay community that they can have their parade, but just not where people find them offensive?
Oh that’s right, it’s called homophobia and is recognised as an unreasonable hatred.
No one has the right to find people unnaceptable, just because they’re different.
If people say or do something that insults or promotes hatred of you, then you have the right to object, but as long as people act in a manner consistent with the legal guidleines, no one should have the right to object to them, simply because they exist.
What people are proposing here is tantamount to apardheid.
TAKFBO, I think you’ll find that the gay community have to apply to the parade commission like everyone else having a parade (including boys brigade, vintage car rallies, even the OO)
I think the main point that people need to realise is that every faith and religion has a right to celebrate and remember!
But to my embarrassment as a protestant the celebration of our religion on the 11th and 12th is not a celebration i am proud of.
Just look at the 11th and the trouble that comes with it. Alot of drink drugs paramilitaries fighting deaths and shows of strength is part of every 11th. Considering the mentioned why would any decent parent want their children part of this? Yes there is some street parties for kids that are well managed and well recieved but very few. Does getting blind drunk, fighting, celebrating with paramilitary scum and encouraged to hate the “taigs” represent my protestant religion? is this the only way to celebrate? Then i am ashamed for myself and those decent people who mix and celebrate with the para scum who have ruined our protestant heritage.
The 12th is as bad in most areas. Look at kids out of their heads with drink and drugs, look at the bands with their sick para flags and emblems look at the banned routes because of the hatred. Why is this ” a good day out ” for the family?
Why do parents bring their kids to watch the bands who are mostly para scum who have murdered sold drugs and gave the protestant religion a rotten name?
Yes granted not all bands are bad and not all areas are hate filled and rife with division.
But can someone please give me a lift to the moon so my family can celebrate the 11th and 12th and not see and listen to hatred drugs fighting and shows of strength by “OUR” paramilitary scum.