Orangeism and liberty
For a man who chastises me for being “a 19th centaury liberal dressed up as a conservative”, Brian Crowe displays some of his classical liberalism in this piece on the historical narrative of the Orange Institution.
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Books
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“You can see Newton’s mind at work…”
To add to the open access treasure trove at the Royal Society, Cambridge University Library is putting online some of its collection of books, maps, manuscripts and journals. We have called the first phase of our work on the Cambridge Digital Library the Foundations Project, which runs from mid-2010 to mid-2013 and has been made possible [...] read our review » -
Douglas Murray – Bloody Sunday: Truth, Lies and the Saville Inquiry, Book Review
The aftermath of the Saville Inquiry into the events around Bloody Sunday has left me, and I suspect many others, with one enduring image: Prime Minister David Cameron’s apology in the House of Commons, where he says that the actions of the British Army were ‘unjustified and unjustifiable.’ But there’s a lot more to the [...] read our review » -
Ulsters Last Stand?: Can Unionism Move Beyond Insurance Policy Politics?
How has Ulster unionism arrived at where it is today – fractured and uncertain, yet dominated electorally by the DUP, a party that tells us it offers unionists sure footing in uncertain times? In his latest book, Ulster’s Last Stand? Reconstructing Unionism after the Peace Process (Irish Academic Press, 2010), Prof. James McAuley from the [...] read our review »
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How many people think a good solution would be to BAN both the OO and the GAA ???, two less sectarian organisations in NI ? Both sides would have lost something, but collectively gain.
the OO celebrates th survival of the protestant tradition in hostile catholic, republican Ireland. The last/current attemts by the catholic community to eliminate them via the provos are simply the latest in a long line of attacks on the protestant in Ireland.
They continued presence of the oo ,the attacks on it and the whining by the mopers/sf front simply confirm the need to continue the celebration
A small point of information, equality – the GAA is not a sectarian organisation, it is a sporting organisation with a (secondary) political objective. Its members come from all religions, and there is no differentiation made on the basis of religion. Hence it is wrong to call them sectarian.
The OO, on the other hand, is an openly sectarian organisation with a (secondary?) political objective.
Chalk and cheese, I think.
In my personal opinion it would include:
Increase of checks and balances of the Assembly and NS bodies
A strengethening of EW structures
Collective responsibility for the Executive
A reduction on the size of the Assembly and number of departments.
Paramilitary organisations to disarm, cease criminality and disband.
Support for the police.
NIHRC and EC representation improved.
Some of these benefit both communities eg paramilitarism, policing.
“What specifically, is unionism going to concede to nationalism to entice it to ditch both GFA and JS?”
The biggest one is actually nationalism making a full agreement with the people they have to share this place with and vice versa.
Others are:
1. Essentially all the Unionist community agrees to full power-sharing, which has never occured before.
2. The reforms would ensure this deal operates on a sustainable basis, which didn’t occur before. No one benefits from a yo-yo devolution.
3. The increase in NS accountability would mean a greater willingness to expansion in NS role e.g more bodies and/or responsibilities.
4. A joint stewardship situation would not give nationalism direct influence so agreement gives them full access to power.
5. No political vaccuum and thus none of the risks with such a situation.
You may consider this not enough, but that is what I think is on offer. Sorry for brevity trying to eat my dinner.
Enjoy your dinner, fair_deal, and thanks for trying to explain your ‘deal’. It is a complete non-starter, of course, because it really just is a unionist wish-list with the addition of “and we’ll talk to you now” tagged on at the end.
Good luck tyring to sell it. I much prefer either of Plans A or B, and I’m not even close to your toughest customer!
SC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarianism
“Hence it is wrong to call them sectarian.”
The concept of sectarianism is not restricted to religion.
“It is a complete non-starter, of course,”
The Comprehensive Agreement contained a substantial chunk of it and the Shinners reason for not signing was camera shyness not an objection to such changes.
“Good luck tyring to sell it. I much prefer either of Plans A or B, and I’m not even close to your toughest customer!”
If nationalism isn’t genuinley interested in making peace with the community its shares this space with so be it.
Stephen thanks for replying to my post
The whole point i was making is its not what *YOU* percieve the GAA to be its what the unionist/protestant community percieve it as. personally ive no interest in sports of any nature (boring!)
Im a ex-nationalist who wishes to remain in the UK (as many of my friends are), however I also wish to live in a normal society, and from my viewpoint i would like to see the OO banned, but it has to be balanced with reciprocal measures from the nationalist/catholic community.
I took this extract from another post i read, It might help you understand what im saying.
University Of Ulster report by Adrian Device and Robert Connor
“The Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA), which is at the heart of the Catholic community, actively promotes Gaelic games and supports the Irish language, traditional Irish dancing, music, song and other aspects of Irish culture. Yet the GAA is also surrounded by controversy due to its overt nationalist ethos. It is perceived by the Unionist/Protestant community as a sectarian organisation because of Rule 21 which banned membership to the British security forces, its past association with IRA hunger strikers, the flying of the Irish Tricolour at Gaelic matches, the naming of GAA grounds after republican heroes and arms caches found on GAA property.”
Can you see where im coming from, its about other people perceptions (right or wrong)
PS i dont know the answer, but does anyone know the religous breakdoun of the GAA, players, supporters etc etc(% wise), we already know what the OO is !!
Fair_deal,
“making peace” is an entirely different thing to what you seem to be offering. The cease-fires ‘made peace’, the GFA copper-fastened peace, but what your ‘deal’ seems to be trying to do is to turn things backwards, to reverse some of nationalism’s gains, and to try to impose a ‘peace’ based upon a unionist ‘victory’.
The strategy is as clear as daylight, so I sincerely hope you don’t really think that anyone is going to buy it. If so, you’ve disappointment coming.
You think that by blocking all other avenues you’ll drive nationalism (through frustration and fatigue) through your particular gate? Get real! Nationalism is not only smarter than that, but it has two other options (A and B), both of which it prefers, and two governments that also are seriously committed to Plans A and B. How on earth do you think you’re going to prevail? Not by force of numbers, because you’re perilously close to that important 50% threshold – maybe a generation or two ago you could have played the ‘majority community’ card, but now you’re near to being one of the two minority communities. Problem is, the other one is growing, is not stupid, has time on its side, and is confident. Your best ‘fair deal’ may be the one you’re trying to overturn – the GFA. If you kill it, you may never get another one so good again.
SC
“The cease-fires ‘made peace’,”
No they reduced the killing.
“the GFA copper-fastened peace”
It didn;t work and isn’t operating.
“what your ‘deal’ seems to be trying to do is to turn things backwards, to reverse some of nationalism’s gains, and to try to impose a ‘peace’ based upon a unionist ‘victory’.”
1. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Martin McGuinness as DFM is what Unionists dream of as ‘victory’? LMAO. Unionist ‘victory’ would be a full return to majority rule, no north-southery etc.
2. So its good for peace if nationalism gains but bad if unionism “gained” anything. Hmmmmm.
3. There is also a clear implication in that comment that getting to a full peace agreement requires only unionists to compromise.
“You think that by blocking all other avenues you’ll drive nationalism (through frustration and fatigue) through your particular gate?”
Never said that. If you want a workable deal the people have to do it with is Unionism.
“Problem is, the other one is growing, is not stupid, has time on its side, and is confident”
1. Problem with that claim is the combined SDLP/SF vote has dropped or low growth
Westminster 2001 42.7% 2005 41.8%
European 1999 45.4% 2004 42.2%
Assembly 1998 39.6% 2003 40.5%
2. The 2001 census also put a big dent in that outdated claim
3. Also nice to see ‘non-sectarian’ republicanism go for the catholic birth-rate means us’uns are going to ‘win’.
4. The inevitability argument has been pushed since Northern ireland was founded and 85 years later it is still here so pardon me if I don’t fall on my knees and seek political mercy.
Nice example of distorted statistics above. Please note that he gives only the 1st pref votes for the European election of 2004, enabling him to overlook the significant nationalist gain in the previous five years.
Also remember that the total Unionist vote in the 2005 Westminster Election was 51.4% (51.8% if you count Conservatives as Unionists.) Not the most impressive of majorities, and part of a consistent downward trend ever since Civil Rights started to bite, so more or less guaranteed to make Unionism a minority ideology within a couple of elections.
So I repeat my assertion that the balance of power, at least in the number of votes cast, will pass to the Alliance Party in the next election after January 2008, and to the SDLP in the first election after January 2012. I make no prediction with regard to Sinn Féin.
Re the GAA: Jack Boothman, former Presdient, was and is a Protestant? How is this known? Because the GAA is an open organization? Why does the GAA stand up to bullying? Because it was part of a nationalist reawakening in Ireland in the late 19th andearly 20th century and this was augmented by British forces almost routinely killing GAA members? Why have Unionists and the Loyalist and British death squads targeted the GAA? Because they want to break the Catholic community so they target churches, schools, community groups etc. And the GAA is by far the biggest community group on the island of Ireland. As regards being a republican front: it ocntains many members of the Irish secret police, the Gardai and the Irish army, all of whom have strong anti IRA credentials.
Is the Orange Order a community organization? Only in the same way the Ku Klux Klan is. Both were set up to discriminate against people on the basis of their religion and race.
Why do Orangies compare the sectarian Orange Order to the GAA? To prtent that sectarianism is not the one way gun it is and to justify killing members of the GAA solely on account of their membership of a sporting organization.
Why are weapons stashed in GAA halls? For the same reason they are stashed in Protestant churches: it allows the culprits an escape route as “anybody could have stashed them there?”
Fair Deal: As regards outbreeding the Huns: you must factor in the neforced emigration of large numbers of Catholics since the undemocratic partition of Ireland. Let’s face it: when push comes to shove, there is nothing democratic and little if anything admirable about the Unionist tradtion.
I resent this type of article that seems almost to gloss over what 1688 meant for Catholics. James II had suspended the Anti-Catholic laws (and anti-Presbtyerian ones). The Anti-Catholic laws returned under William in even harsher form than before, ultimately helping to create the economic conditions leading to the Irish Famine of 1846-51, and anti-Presbyterian laws were also brought in though less harsh than before. It’s ironic that Northern Presbyterians opposed a king who had increased their civil rights, in favour of one who reduced them.
I also think that claiming Protestantism as part of British identity may be a bit outdated in a country where most Protestants don’t even attend church, e.g. 1/6 Anglicans attend a weekly service.
“The Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA), which is at the heart of the Catholic community, actively promotes Gaelic games and supports the Irish language, traditional Irish dancing, music, song and other aspects of Irish culture. Yet the GAA is also surrounded by controversy due to its overt nationalist ethos. It is perceived by the Unionist/Protestant community as a sectarian organisation because of Rule 21 which banned membership to the British security forces, its past association with IRA hunger strikers, the flying of the Irish Tricolour at Gaelic matches, the naming of GAA grounds after republican heroes and arms caches found on GAA property.”
Equality, if the Unionists are entitled to have Unionist organisations, then so too are Nationalists. There is no real comparison between the 2. The GAA does not exclude membership or marriage on the basis of religion – the OO do. The GAA has a huge following among the Nationalists of this island and has nothing to apologise for in its stance. Nationalists are entitled to sing Amhrán na bhFiann and raise the Tricolor in stadiums built with GAA money. There are 2 identities in the North not just a British one. Playing games in a stadium/grounds is far less offensive than marching with flags and banners and anti-Catholic songs down Catholic streets and rioting when you’re not allowed. The GAA is an angel compared to the OO.
If you want to be a West-Brit that is your right. Just don’t go expecting the rest of us to be.
Whoaaa !! steady on fellas, all i done was raise a point.
From your answers then I take it that nationalists would not give up the GAA to get rid of the OO. Personally I think it would go a long way to solving our problems. And Imagine, setting up a truly cross-community sport, one in which both traditions can mix and learn about each other.
PS Jack Boothmans name is the only name i ever hear banded about, is their anyone else?, can someone please give me figures (estimates even) of the breakdown of the GAA in religios terms. I done a google and read “100% of controlling body is catholic, and 99.9% players are catholic”, can anyone confirm/refute this figure). NI Football has its “give sectarianism the boot” campaign, so maybe the GAA could start with something similar?
At the very least there will have to be root and branch reform. After all, look at how many sports are played in NI, soccer, bowls, cricket, rugby etc etc, ALL are cross-community, the way it should be. To have an organisation withs its roots in the dawn of time (pretty much like the OO), in an era long since past, is not healthy given the troubles on this island.
If we are ever to achieve lasting peace, exclusive organisations like the OO and GAA will have to go.
Equality.
Do you come from a close family? Did you not read the above statements before repeating the sillinesses. Or are you as I suspect interviewing in an Ali G kind of way?
“A small point of information, equality – the GAA is not a sectarian organisation, it is a sporting organisation with a (secondary) political objective. Its members come from all religions, and there is no differentiation made on the basis of religion. Hence it is wrong to call them sectarian”
So organise yourselves in a manner which no sincere protestant/unionist could support.
Your choice but you cannot then claim to be “open to all”. Same applies to the OO
The most interesting/ amusing thing on this thread is that ‘darth’ is genuinely mistaken as being Ulster Unionist (party member) by ‘Taigs’. Great stuff!!!
There’s a lessen in there big lad, its time you and big Willie and the fmr Omagh Town FC fan, stopped sulking and got back on board to save the good ship UUP.
You know that you’ll never really fit in with the DUPes, what with having a sense of humour…. and a beard.
Brian Boru
“Nationalists are entitled to sing Amhrán na bhFiann and raise the Tricolor in stadiums built with GAA money”
Thanks brian for enlightening protestants as to the kind of “open environment” the GAA really is, i find the singing of the soldiers song *really* inclusive, and secondly the Biggoted GAA recieved millions over the years from taxpayers to subsidise this sectarian organisation, example:
http://www.downgaa.net/downgaa/general/news/2006/june/june9th1.htm
I noticed the shouts of “shame” and “discrimination” when the OO was awarded a measley £100,000 , it kinda pales in comparison doesnt it ?
Two questions re. the GAA.
1. Who does the GAA exclude? (Quite a different question from: to whom is the GAA unattractive?)
2. In what way does the GAA diminish the quality of life of the average Ulster Protestant?
Because if you want to know why the GAA and OO cannot be seriously compared, the reason is this: the OO has exercised a malign influence over the lives of Irish Catholics since its inception, and continues to do so, and exists primarily for that purpose, whereas the average Ulster Protestant could live his whole life and never suffer even a minor disruption to his day-to-day life on account of the GAA, much less have his quality of life/sense of security/economic wellbeing/house value etc diminished by it.
Or in short, the GAA’s role in Irish life is overwhelmingly positive, whereas the Orange Order’s influence on Irish life in overwhelmingly negative.
barnshee,
… So organise yourselves in a manner which no sincere protestant/unionist could support.
For the umpteenth time … protestant and unionist are two different things. Of course a unionist is going to feel uncomfortable in the GAA, as it has a clearly naationalist flavour. But there is nothing whatsoever that a protestant would have a problem with. There is no religious requirement in the GAA (unlike the OO), and AFAIK, no religious clap-trap in its operations. Amhrán na bhFiann is not a Catholic hymn, and the Tricolour is a political symbol, not a religious one.
If unionists want to limit their support base to Protestants only, that is their choice, but they cannot enforce a reciprocal equivalence – not all Protestants are unionists, and some happily play gaelic games.
“Thanks brian for enlightening protestants as to the kind of “open environment” the GAA really is, i find the singing of the soldiers song *really* inclusive, and secondly the Biggoted GAA recieved millions over the years from taxpayers to subsidise this sectarian organisation”
Something is only sectarian if it discriminates on the basis of religion. No-one is refused membership of the GAA. Unlike the exclusionary OO. The charge that the GAA is “sectarian” is simply a tactic to deflect attention from the OO’s sectarianism, which includes banning marriages of its members to Catholics. It’s constitution rant about the “fatal errors” of the Catholic Church. The GAA Constitution on the other hand has no such prohibition or attacks on the Protestant churches. Furthermore the GAA doesn’t march into areas where it is not wanted.
Simply having an opinion on the United Ireland question is not of itself sectarian.
Equality: You know little about either the GAA or the Catholic community. One of the backbones of the GAA was the Christian Brothers. Posher outfits like the Jesuits and Augustinian Fathers got their charges to play the garrison game of rugby. Soccer was considered a knacker’s game and still is in many quarters. Protestant religious leaders regularly attend Croke Park on big days, where like the politicians and other non CB clerics, they take up good seats that could be better utilized.
The codification of games, rugby, soccer, etc all happened within a short period of time. All sports are big money now. Forgetting soccer for a moment, Irish rugby has done well internationally recently because of the professional way it is organized. The big Irish field games(soccer, rugby, GAA) are in a non political battle with each other for hearts and minds. In the past, rugby had the best facilities and got many recruits that way. Soccer had the international touch but, in the South, even Shels are in big trouble ( the most recent Cork team will most likely go under as it is financially fucked. As is Shamrock Rovers who must duke it out with GAA and rugby in Tallaght. .
So to expect any of them to commit hara kiri as you suggest is not on. Organizationally, financially and in almost every ontehr way, GAA rules
As regards cross community, many Irish people (RCs) despise/don’t understand/couldn’t give a fuck about cricket (yes yes Mick we know). And as for bowls, that is like bocce, something for old men.
Former Irish rugby international Tony Ward could appreciate all games and used to get his charges at snobby Proddy St Andrews School to try out soccer and GAA as well as rugby, though he was a 200% rugby man. You could learn something from that.
And from the fact that Belfast Celtic were forced to close shop and Derry City forced to play in the LoI because of sectarian attacks on them in your corss community game of soccer. Go read up about Belfast Celtic, remembering that this thread is about Glasgow Rangers, the team of choice for Protestant death squads.
Turd Marq: Is Darth not in the juniour wing of some Unionist group? I wish I could see much difference betwene your factions.
Fair Deal
“Seems to cover what you did.”
That is your entirely subjective judgement. Darth deemed my post worthy of a reply. Stephen Copeland offered me some support. I think your judgement is inaccurate and conveniently self-serving. Hence my assertion that you are a dishonest coward.
“A comparison with a extreme racist group is inflammatory and offensive.”
Whether it’s “offensive” or not is irrelevant. The only relevant question is, does it hold water. Now, I offered you an opportunity to explain how the Orange Order and the Ku Klux Klan are unalike. I even started you off with two fundamental incompatibilities. You chose not to explain what you think the distinctions are, on the grounds that you were “offended”.
If you are so delicate, maybe this isn’t the place for you?
“You were repetitive because you persisted with the line of questioning.”
What else is a fella to do when faced with dishonesty, evasion and cowardice? Are all debates to be conducted solely on ground you are comfortable on? It seems to me that your approach to blogging is that you make an argument and thereafter, declare irrelevant any inconvenient facts that contradict your thesis. This is unworthy, cowardly and intellectually moribund.
“As it is clear from your comments you are carrying hurt feelings from another thread it would suggest your aim was to annoy and antagonise as does the fact you engaged in such behaviour on two threads.”
No, no hurt feelings at all. If you’d been on Slugger a little longer you’d know that I’m not the type to get offended. I’m interested in the fact that you seem so anxious to cry foul. Are you so afraid of a bit of rough and tumble? You remind me of some of the strikers I’ve seen in the World Cup.
But then I know you’re a relative newcomer to our little community here, so hopefully you’ll toughen up and maybe even mature enough to lose a little of that utter certainty you are so handicapped by.
Fair Deal
“The theme of this thread is about Orangeism and liberty not about how it compares with other organisations particularly extreme racist ones.”
See, this is an example of what I’m talking about. Who are you to so stiffly define what the thread is “about”? To me, this thread is about the denial that exists within Orangeism as to the malignity of its role in Ireland, and that’s every bit as valid an interpretation as yours – regardless of that Michael Shilliday might have intended when he blogged it. That’s the nature of blogging. If you think my take on the debate is irrelevant, then it’s incumbent on you to explain why – otherwise you’re just name-calling.
So, on the whole KKK and OO thing: are you prepared to discuss it yet, or do I have to keep asking?
[i]Alongside those driven by a sporting agenda such as Cusack and Davin, men driven by a political agenda also gathered. Present in Thurles were three members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB). From the first meeting in 1884, right through to the foundation of the Irish Free State, the IRB would have a profound effect on the Association.[8] Within the minds of many interested observers, such as the Dublin Castle authorities, the IRB’s involvement with the GAA removed the Association from the solely sporting sphere. The GAA would become part of a movement that espoused the virtues of physical force nationalism. In doing so they became the symbol, publicly at least, of the colonial struggle.
Aside from establishing the GAA-IRB relationship that would have such an important impact on the Association across the three decades after 1884, the men gathered in Thurles selected three patrons for the GAA that firmly and openly linked it with the forces of political nationalism. Whereas the IRB’s relationship with the GAA was a secretive matter, the choice of the patrons was openly published in the newspapers of the time, as were the letters from the patrons accepting their posts.[9] The patrons chosen were Archbishop Croke, Michael Davitt and Charles Stewart Parnell. Such choices instantly gave the GAA nationalist credentials as all three were representative of the most important strands of the contemporary nationalist struggle: the campaigning Catholic cleric, the Land Leaguer and the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party.[/i] .. Cronin
A sad amalgam of sport, patriot Catholicism, constitutional Irish nationalism and militant Irish republicanism?
Perhaps those concerned about various forms of child abuse should be concerned about this and whatever the loyalist equivalents are. IMO paramilitary ‘heroes’ are not appropriate role models.
Billy Pilgrim “Who does the GAA exclude? (Quite a different question from: to whom is the GAA unattractive?)”
The RUC *NEVER* excluded anyone, but nationalists still didnt join, rather calling it a sectarian police force – see the parallel pilgrim boy
Stephen Copeland –
“But there is nothing whatsoever that a protestant would have a problem with”,
read -
Each club was tied to a parish, overseen by the local priest, the games watched by a congregation fresh from Mass. On muddy parish pitches on Sunday afternoons, Gaelic became an Irish Catholic rite almost like holy communion. Before All-Ireland finals, GAA officials would kneel to kiss a bishop’s ring.
As for their IRA sympathies
“no GAA player would play on the rubble of the H-blocks and in particular the hospital wing where 10 republicans died on hunger strike” – Sinn Fein Councillor Paul Butler obviously doesnt envisage a protestant/unionist GAA player, i wonder why ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/4289233.stm
as well as gaa clubs being blessed etc, theres nor catholic church involement — ho hum
http://www.downgaa.net/downgaa/general/news/2005/feb_gaaaltar.htm
I believe unionists have a moral duty to expose the sectarian underbelly of the GAA at every turn, just look at what the GAA done to cricket in ireland with is obscene laws
http://www.abcofcricket.com/Article_Library/art10/art10.htm
utter nonsense,
Where exactly would I ‘read’ the quote you gave? I note that it is in the past tense, so what period is it referring to? Who wrote it – did they have an agenda?
I think if you look at the 21st century GAA (and indeed the 20th century GAA) you would not recognise that quaint description you gave.
Leitrim has a few players who are Protestants.
Trolling about the trolling. You are lucky I am bored today.
“That is your entirely subjective judgement”
No really you don’t say. Am I supposed to mind read someone else’s argument to respond to what someone says?
“Darth deemed my post worthy of a reply.”
Dealt with above. Also Darth described your question as “immature.” Hardly praise of worthiness.
“Hence my assertion that you are a dishonest coward.”
1. How will I sleep at nights?
2. What part of the ball not man rule do you not understand?
“Whether it’s “offensive” or not is irrelevant.”
Hmmm. As that part of the discussion was about what constituted trolling and offence is included in the definition then it is directly relevant.
“Now, I offered you an opportunity to explain how the Orange Order and the Ku Klux Klan are unalike”
No you trolled because you didn’t like my answers on another thread and can’t seem to get over it.
“But then I know you’re a relative newcomer to our little community here”
Again wrong I’ve been on the site for a couple of years. My participation predated my blogging.
“Who are you to so stiffly define what the thread is “about”?”
Possibly because I read the thread title, the outline and the linked article. None of which said OO, compare and contrast with the first bunch of crazies you can think of. The article also directly addressed.
“To me, this thread is about the denial that exists within Orangeism as to the malignity of its role in Ireland, ”
You claim you object to the premise of Brian Crowe’s narrative. Fair enough.
It’s just a pity that your earlier comments don’t fit with this narrative. For example your first comment on this thread contained no criticism of Brian Crowe’s argument. You followed taigs lead and took the tangental jump to a extreme racist organisation from a different continent. Indeed you arguement in that post implied that the OO was worse than the KKK. Nothing about the OO and its role in Ireland at all.
“Are you so afraid of a bit of rough and tumble?”
Yawn. Sad enough you try to troll, pity it can’t be of a higher standard.
” maybe even mature enough to lose a little of that utter certainty you are so handicapped by.”
I realise some much prefer it when unionists roll over and play dead for them but some of us are made of sterner stuff. If some can’t handle that so be it.
“So, on the whole KKK and OO thing: are you prepared to discuss it yet, or do I have to keep asking?”
Troll all you wish.
Stephen Copeland
The most telling quote of the GAA’s current position is Sinn Fein Councillor Paul Butlers Assesment on the Maze (Why would Sinn Fein have anything to do with a sporting body i wonder ???)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/northern_ireland/4289233.stm
This article was dated “Wednesday, 23 February, 2005″
Hardly eons ago, i think you will agree
No other “sporting” (and i mean sporting in the loosest sense of the word) organisation in the world would have as much sectarian and political baggage.
organisations such as the GAA have no place in a modern society. Sammy Wilson one famously summed up the GAA as “the IRA at play”, how true.
Like I mean a hunger strike memorial match – what other sporting organisation in the western world glorifies terrorists ???
http://www.gaelsport.com/html/club/newfullstory.jsp?c=612&newsID=13938&p=n
Oh yes im still waiting on the figures for religous breakdown of the GAA, everybody is keeping mum, i wonder why ?
but yet well hear the usual porkies about how the GAA welcomes protestants and is open to everybody…blah blah blah.
END SECTARIANISM NOW !!!!!!
End Sectarianism,
… im still waiting on the figures for religous breakdown of the GAA …
Fortunately, you will never get them.
Why? Because there is no reason in the world why the GAA would gather such statistics. It is a voluntary organisation, and people join it to play football or hurling. Nobody asks (or cares) what religion they are, and that is how it should be.
Stephen How can you defend such a sectarian organisation
“t is a voluntary organisation, and people join it to play football or hurling. Nobody asks (or cares) what religion they are, and that is how it should be.”
They join it to play football or hurling do they ???
Well whats this about then
http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2003/sep12_DUP_protest_IRA_commemoration.php
and some GAA fans having a good day out
http://www.uup.org/media/media_30_08_05_hussey.htm
and this…
and further prrof of the close ties with the catholic church
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/05/27/story688427089.asp
GAA…the dinosaur of the sporting world :/
Whomever you are.
Does contradicting yourself make you an even better troll? In your links, I am assuming that you are flagging the IRA as a sectarian organisation and the OO as not. I thought you wanted to end sectarianism, not lie about it. Please make your mind up what position you are taking pre-trolling.
prince
“I am assuming that you are flagging the IRA as a sectarian organisation and the OO as not.”
No the OO are just as sectarian, and must also be destroyed, who are just as sectarian as the GAA who must also be destroyed
you assumed wrong mofo
Whys everyone went quiet all of a sudden ?
stephen you still here ?
hello
This is just so predictable. Faced with criticism of one of ‘their’ organisations, the trolls come out to muddy the waters, by trying to pretend that there is an equivalent on the ‘other’ side.
So rather than deal with the citicism (justified or not) everyone is sucked into a pointless tit-for-tat with increasingly rabid posts and tangential links. Meanwhile the organisation that was originally under discussion slinks off uninjured. Which is, of course, the real aim of the trolls.
I’m sure there is a good name for this kind of behaviour in military jargon, but here it just looks pathetic. Maybe the trolls actually believe that they are putting up aa good smokescreen for their friends to hide behind, but they’re only fooling themselves.
Stopping reasonable discussion of the OO’s flaws may seem like a good defence, but it really isn’t, becaause those flaws, and the dislike that they engender, don’t go away. You’re just putting off the day when you will really have to face reality, trolls.
While we are on the topic of sectarianism & sport etc…
It seems that n.i football supporters have decided that the IFA’s ‘football for all’ campaign is a waste of time.
n.i fans have been erecting n.i football flags alongside loyalist paramilitary flags in many areas. The n.i football team are being commemorated alongside king billy, the orange order & the uvf & uda.
It looks like all the dressing up & spin over the last 18 months about the supporters being ‘less’ sectarian’ than previously is rubbish.
Stephen…..er did that last bit of waffling actually mean anything, like come on, surely you can do better than that drivel, surely ?
“Faced with criticism of one of ‘their’ organisations”
NEITHER the OO or the GAA are *MY* organisation as you so eloquently put it, i despise them both in equal measure, but i do feel stephen you are in denial of the GAA’s sectarian nature, at least the OO dont try to hide it :/
can you at least summon the moral strength to condemn the GAA’s commemoration of dead IRA terrorists ?? as outlined above, as no democrat could supportsuch divisive actions.
I await a reply stephen (but dont worry my expectations are not too high)
Liar Liar,
… dont worry my expectations are not too high
Then you won’t be disappointed when I don’t play your game. The thread is about the OO, and I suggest you leave it to that subject. Introducing irrelevancies to divert the discussion is trolling, pure and simple.
Ask one of the bloggers to put up a thread on the GAA, if you wish – it is, after all, part of the culture of Northern Ireland, so worthy of discussion on this blog.
Orange Order and Friends: http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/jun5_Orange_link_with_killers.php
Liar Liar: So members of the Black Perceptory were enquiring after GAA results? Is this the same Black Perceptory who, they used to say, eat Catholics in August? As Tyrone is a powerhousae in the GAA, it is obvious it enjoys widespread community support from people who object to the Black Shirted Perceptory doing stompfests where they are not wanted. It is terefore to be expecred that, in GAA and Orange/Black stompfest season, clashes might occur when the Black shirts or other fascists march where the community does not want them.
As regards the GAA and the Catholic Church: that was a silly remark and an unnecessary loss of brownie points. Every single sporting or other orgnanization – swimming for example – will attract kiddy fucker types. The GAA is to be praised for acting, not subjected to your pro kiddy fucking remarks. You could learn a lot from the Free Presbyterian Church in this regard.
As regards commemorating GAA members killed by the security forces, why not? Were they and their families not part of the community too?
If cricketers or anyone else want to commemorate the British army gunman recently killed in Afghanistan or anyone else they feel is part of their community, why not? I doubt the most notorious loyalist killers would get cups named after them but one never knows.
Stephen,
when i said “Dont worry my expectations are not too high”, i was pleasntly surprised when you failed miserably to rise to meet such low expectations !
Only jokin,
I wasnt surprised at all
A nice cop-out, the realitiy of the situation is that everything must be on the table for discussion, it is no good just discussing one element of the problem.
Therefore when discussing the OO, it is only proper that other sectarian organisations such as the GAA are included in those dialogues as ALL sectarian organisations must go.
Can a member of admin start a GAA blog please (there you go stephen), but i doubt it will be swept under the carpet, again my expectations are low.
Taigs
“As regards commemorating GAA members killed by the security forces, why not? Were they and their families not part of the community too”
The GAA should be proscribed
please can we start a thead on the biggoted and sectarian GAA, please, please please
Your grace,
“There’s a lessen in there big lad, its time you and big Willie and the fmr Omagh Town FC fan, stopped sulking and got back on board to save the good ship UUP.”
Are you mad? That would be the first ever case of rats getting on to a sinking ship!
“You know that you’ll never really fit in with the DUPes, what with having a sense of humour…. and a beard.”
Hmmm- Trevor Kirkland had a beard. Rev Ivan Foster had a beard. Our Lord himself is widely represented as having a beard.And Sammy Wilson’s collected conference speeches are worth a dvd release.
But I fear you mis-identify me. I am not a member of any political party, and I am sadly deficient in the whisker quota.
In a normal society we all have the right to belong to a political party, adhere to a religion, follow a particular sport and team, and join what is called a ‘fraternal organisation.’
You can see a good list of such organisations if you go to:
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/
and then choose chronology_fraternal_organizations_america.htm .
Fraternal Organisations fulfil a certain function. An American friend of mine told me she was a female mason, and all her family were masons. I asked whether this was not at variance with their religion, which was Catholic, and she said that there was sod all else to do in Toadsuck, Arkansas, and they weren’t going to be social isolates however many popes had promulgated bulls on the matter.
Nevertheless, sometimes FOs get out of hand. The KKK is one such organisation: the Orange Order another. The Freemasons have come in for some criticism: their reaction has been to attempt to modernise by implementing a greater degree of openness, showing people round their lodges, performing charitable functions for the populace in general. But in general the day of the FO has passed: they were important in their time, but that time is not now, and to continue to adhere to them is perceived as slightly retarded behaviour, a badge of mediocrity.
The problem in NI is that all these various identities have become linked up. While there are a large number of religions, most of them are identified as either Catholic or Protestant; of parties, they mostly boil down to Nationalist or Unionist; of sports clubs, they can usually be identified as Orange or Green. And as for FOs, basically the Orange Order is the only visible one, as far as I am concerned. Plus notational variations.
The immediate answer is an end to parades, of all sorts, fraternal, political, religious or whatever. People have the right to conduct their business on their own property: they should not be blocking the streets. The 12th Bank Holiday has to go.
PaddyReilly
“People have the right to conduct their business on their own property: they should not be blocking the streets”
“basically the Orange Order is the only visible one, as far as I am concerned”
Paddy, mon dieu !!!, youve just reminded me
DISBAND the AOH NOW !!!!
And while your at it, I would like to BAN StPatricks Day, you cant move in newry for it, and there are nothing but teenage drunkards falling all over the place, vomiting and fighting
So lets recap, id like to BAN
the Orange Order
the GAA
the AOH
and St Patricks day parades
thanks for pointing that out reilly
Saying that the attackers of the Black Preceptory parade wearing GAA shirts makes the GAA sectarian is as ludicrous as saying that if they wore England shirts then the England football team is sectarian. The GAA has no control over what people wear.
Regarding what GAA members in Co.Tyrone did I personally wouldn’t approve but it should be noted that they acted on their own local initiative rather than on orders from on high. I doubt very much that the leadership would approve.
Unless there is an explicit ban on non-Catholics joining, the GAA cannot be fairly judged as “sectarian”. The organisation has had Protestant members. Nationalist societies have just as much right to exist as Unionist ones, but there is no “screening” of people who join. This is just a laughable attempt to compare like with unlike.
LL
Thank you for elevating me to the status of your God.
However we still have the right of Free Association. There can be no question of banning organisations which do not provoke breaches of the peace. I have read about the AOH in the book “An Druma Mór” but I can’t say I’ve ever encountered them in real life. Perhaps someone can direct me to an AOH inspired riot on the Internet, but I’ve never heard of it.
St Patrick’s day may be a cause of drunkenness, but it is a widely accepted festivity in the US, where it has really lost any connection with Ireland or the Irish. Pukefest, I think they call it.
BB, the Sanquhar declaration and the Killing Times would hardly indicate any Presbyterian affection for James or his brother Charles.
(Google the “History of Protestantism” by J A Wylie)
Utter Nonsense: Nice name.
Your Aussie cricketer associating the GAA with the Catholic Church and claiming soccer etc players were ostracised is just plain silly, ignorant and uninformed.
Leading members of the IRA joined Shels after the Civil War as it was the only job they could get.
Neil Blaney was a soccer fanatic and soccer was very strong in Donegal, thanks in large part toGlasgow Celtic FC. (and Rangers). Martin McGuinness was a soccer fan., The fact that he goes to GAA matches in search of votes is not novel.
Bobby Sands: Yes, I think it odd that the GAA should call a club after Bobby Sands, a noted soccr player who kicked ball with guys who went on to join the sectarian UVF. Although that is probably a sign of the GAA’s openness, it probably also reflects the community base, built around Catholic parsihes, of the GAA.
The GAA remains Ireland’s premier sporting and cultural organization. And the soccer mob, who couldn’t organize shit, are now trying to copy their very successful parish centred model. Because it works and the soccer one does not.
So, join the GAA and come into the modern era. Abandon the Aussie cricketer who goes back to the Golden Age (sic) of Irish cricket when a gang of Tommies beat the Windies (1928?). What with 1690, the Orange Order, Unionism and cricket, you do like to live in the past, don’t you.
Only a few more days to the Orange stomp fest. But never mind. The GAA season will soon kick into high gear with attendances the other lot can only dream about.
A question as the laudable onesmallstop campaign urges people like you to embrace the GAA and people like me to watch a cricket game (which I have). Just how many people play cricket in the 6 cos? Do Protestants actually play it there in significant numbers? We don’t hear of great or even not so great cricket county teams or whatever. Do ye not even make the cut there? Maybe less stomps and more stumps, eh?