BBC apologises for Gerry Anderson’s anti Bush remark
Radio Ulster has had to apologise for Gerry Anderson’s aside that George Bush could rot in hell on his birthday (tomorrow as it happens). Hmmm anti Americanism gone mad? Biased BBC has already got hold of it, so I imagine it’s half way round the US blogosphere already!
Update: You can hear the original broadcast here. More reaction here. And you can hear the original here or here on Slugger.
Tags: Media
Prince Eoghan: “Come on now Dread, if you disagree with my assessment, fine. Though not wishing to be rude, but did you even read my piece? it doesn’t seem like it. Also not once did I say it was all smoke and mirrors, didn’t know about Canada though. ”
Oh, that’s the least of matters. Learn a little about Islam. As for your post, you’re indulging in bootstrap levitation — you are taking facts and making them fit a thesis, rather than taking a thesis and supporting it with fact.
You are diminishing and denigrating what is, in fact, a natural reaction and suggesting sinister motives without any concrete support. You cherry-pick your time-frame, so as to diminish any rebuttal as to the necessity and the “back-trail” of radical Islamic behavior and, frankly, I don’t you understand the folks who are performing these attacks.
Muslims believe that they live is “Dar-al-Islam,” the house of peace / submission, whilst the rest of us live in “Dar-al-Har,” the house of conflict /war. Essentially, one of the tenets of their religion is that its “ussums” vs. “themmuns.” Now, any lands or people brought into Dar-al-Islam are supposed to remain there, which leads to the spectacle of Hamas web-sites demanding the return of “Andalusia” (Spain) and fatwah declared against “Apostates” (those who convert to another religion from Islam). Likewise, their ultimate goal is to bring all into “the house of submission” and the means to do so are left vague — the Koran likes to discuss Islam as a “religion of peace,” but has not shortage of “smite the infidel” verses to it.
In short, your analysis was shallow and one-sided, designed to make a cheap political point, rather than to inform or instruct or debate.
Slugger should get out more (blog about things other than NI) as witnessed by the comments on this blog.
After all I really know the names of Two Shags other mistresses.
BTW: Prescott will be demoted to NI SoS.
Dread. You have gone too far now.
“You cherry-pick your time-frame, so as to diminish any rebuttal as to the necessity and the “back-trail” of radical Islamic behavior and, frankly, I don’t you understand the folks who are performing these attacks.”
AGAIN I deny this prove it. My assessment was based post-9/11, you may wish to include pre. However having a go at me for not including something that is not relevant to my opinions is utterly stupid. All I have given is an opinion, you are welcome to give yours.
You said;
“In short, your analysis was shallow and one-sided, designed to make a cheap political point, rather than to inform or instruct or debate.”
I believe that you have just stolen my mantle then. Having a pop is no substitute for reasoned discussion. Did I catch you on a good day yesterday? As you just seem to be a grumpy numptie today.
Do you attach any credence to my earlier assessment of the fear factor? So far I am the only one putting a view point across. I am more than happy as always to be educated as to the error of my ways:¬)
Look in the name of Buddha People.
Gerry Anderson is a unique and IMO highly amusing broaddcaster whos show is ironic, unscripted and not to be taken too seriously. He is a national treasure- despite coming from Derry/Londonderry.
Taken out of context this ‘rot in hell’ thing might sould like a terrible insult to our American cousins and their President, but I am quite sure it was a tongue in cheek, off the cuff quip. For the BBC to issue an apology is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.
And for 250+ posts on Slugger, well thats daft. Get back to some traditional Orange/ GAA bashing forthwith people!!!
Prince Eoghan: “Do you attach any credence to my earlier assessment of the fear factor? So far I am the only one putting a view point across. I am more than happy as always to be educated as to the error of my ways:¬) ”
Having read this morning’s paper re: a plot to blow up the Holland Tunnel in NYC, I would have to point out its not the government out there making folks scared… its not until the last couple paragraphs that its pointed out the tunnel in down in the bedrock and sheathed in iron and concrete. The media sensationalizes matters, turning some into far scarier things than they actually are.
The fear is a natural reaction. Arguably, I would say that, if anything, the current administration has not indulged that fear nearly as much as some presidents have in the past. There has been no mass round-up and internment of all Muslim immigrants and first- and second-generation citizens, ala Roosevelt with the Japanese, for example.
Thanks Dread.
Back on topic. I am not talking about the media sensationalisin things though. My original point was aimed at the seemingly endless govt warnings of imminent danger/attack. BTW on checking my spelling of imminent on google, I came across this site which happens to back up my point of view;
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=24970
I honestly reckon that the engineered reminder of constant danger made me and people like me initially support the idea of hitting out. Without really seeking available contrary evidence to gain a balanced view.
Did you have an opportunity to browse the links provided by “sir” yesterday on this thread. Now they were controversial.
Dread,
“World of difference between be willing to rebut / debate / answer in kind and being a “whiney-hole,” Slugfest.”
You’re right … I played the man on that.
However … I wholeheartedly disagree with your take on the Dixie Chicks/Freedom of Speech thing. When the DCs said what they did they had every right to do so – and the CD-buying audience had every right to then cease buying their music … on this we agree. Thing is, it didn’t stop there – the DCs were threatened repeatedly – they received numerous death threats. That same hardline, right-wing American thinking, where you can say what you want as long as you agree with me thing, has transferred right into this post. I don’t care for bullying, hypocritical tactics – not on my own soil, not when it comes to our government’s foreign policy, and not on the world wide web*.
*note that I’m in no way including you in the bullying and hypocrisy … may not agree with you, but I always enjoy your posts.
Slugfest: “However … I wholeheartedly disagree with your take on the Dixie Chicks/Freedom of Speech thing. When the DCs said what they did they had every right to do so – and the CD-buying audience had every right to then cease buying their music … on this we agree.”
Fair ’nuff…
Slugfest: “Thing is, it didn’t stop there – the DCs were threatened repeatedly – they received numerous death threats. That same hardline, right-wing American thinking, where you can say what you want as long as you agree with me thing, has transferred right into this post. I don’t care for bullying, hypocritical tactics – not on my own soil, not when it comes to our government’s foreign policy, and not on the world wide web*. ”
*sigh*
I usually don’t apply “right” or “left” to the *REAL* cranks… some folks are just plain nuts. For lack of a better way to say it, criminal infractions are their own category.
Personally, my own objection to the Chicks is that they said what they said overseas with the assumptions A) it would never make it across the pond and B) if it *DID* make it across the pond, they could pull the wool over their audience’s eyes. Words are, in some senses, actions and actions have consequences. The consequence of the crank / threatening calls *SHOULD* be a nice visit from an unamused representative of law enforcement, assuming the information is available (and it should be).
Exception noted and appreciated.
Prince Eoghan: “Back on topic. I am not talking about the media sensationalisin things though. My original point was aimed at the seemingly endless govt warnings of imminent danger/attack. BTW on checking my spelling of imminent on google, I came across this site which happens to back up my point of view;”
Catch-22. If they DON’T warn of possible threats and something DOES happen, they get accused of malfeasance or incompetence. If the DO warn of possible threats and NOTHING happens, they are accused of being manipulative.
Likewise, vis-a-vis Iraq, there has been so much thrown up against the barn, all I can honestly say there was a legitimate arguement to make for war. They didn’t make the arguement I would have made, but they made an arguement that, based on the information in hand, made sense to them… I find it… ironic that the side that initially argued against the war on the grounds he would used WMD is now going on about a lack of WMD, which isn’t entirely accurate, either, seeing as at least one IED was a Sarin shell.
I would also point out that the failure of the intelligence community has several sources, ranging from Saddam’s strategy of obfuscation on the issue of WMD, certain legislation that requires that human intelligence be obtained from the kind of folks that don’t usually circulate in the kind of circles we intelligence from and the over-reliance on allies that had conflicts of interest, such as the Iraqi liberation groups. To assume deliberate malfeasance as some do is to overlook the obvious.
Aye Larneman,
I should have made the point earlier, but i was too busy getting involved in this drivel drenched thread.
Gerry Anderson is a magnificent broadcaster who cannot be taken seriously at the best of times. The man cuts close to the bone regularly, but if you are not familiar with his sense of humour you could well end up offended, especially if you’re a ring-wing nutter from the States.
The apology is the Beeb just being typically anal. Gerry should avoid politics. More chat of elders, ferrets and ladies with child-bearing hips, and less about the wankers of the world, unless you’re a parrot of sorts.
He broke his own policy of leaving the bullshitting to the Talkbalk contributors and he has suffered severely for it. He needs to slap the phoneboy for letting him say it in the first place. I hope Geraldine beats him mercilessly and Geordie mocks him relentlessly.
Thank you for not smoking.
Dualta injects a note of sanity into the thread and really deserves to be the final word on this whole silly brouhaha.
Heavy political vested interests attacking Gerry Anderson is akin to citing a blind man’s white cane as a hazard to other pedestrians.
‘Butterflies and wheels’ springs to mind.
Uh, the final word on this is Gerry is a big fluffy kitten and anyone who doesn’t agree is a “right-wing nutter”? Sorry Charlie, no dice. This cowardly claptrap is always the recourse of the malignity we know as the modern Left. Hey, we will skin you alive, we will bury you, we will feast on your bones… oh, come ON! Just kidding! Pathetic. It is apparent from this otherwise futiel exercise that, whatever Anderson’s intent, the literal expression finds much agreement from some significant fraction of the population hereabouts. So, we stand condemned to hell, or at least those of us with the temerity to want to share our liberties and prosperity with the sadly impoverished and oppressed of this world. Fine and dandy, I don’t believe in hell anyhow but Ulster and Paris and Glasgow and London will soon enough be the next best place to hell if this is the sort of mindset the Europeans bring to this conflict. And krikey, it IS a conflict, unless you are quite ready to enturbanate and burkafy yourselves. And actually, even then. All you blokes circumcised?
Rory,
Any chance you give tours of Ireland? You’d be one of the most interesting, charming, funny, and knowledgeable guides in the land. You’d make a fortune, i tell ya.
… not that you’d want that fortune, being a communist and all.
IN REMEMBRANCE …
This video clip is taken from ITN news and features an interview with Peter Power, managing director of Visor Consultants, who were running an exercise for an unnamed company that revolved around the London Underground being bombed at the exact same times and locations as happened in real life on the morning of July 7th.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/London_attack/drills_video_visor_consultants.htm
Partial Transcript of the interview …
POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.
HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don’t want to reveal their name but they’re listening and they’ll know it. And we had a room full of crisis managers for the first time they’d met and so within five minutes we made a pretty rapid decision that this is the real one and so we went through the correct drills of activating crisis management procedures to jump from slow time to quick time thinking and so on.
http://www.brendastardom.com/arch.asp?ArchID=696
So, an unnamed company was running an anti-terrorism exercise on 7/7 simulating simultaneous suicide bomb attacks on the same 4 stations that were attacked, on the same day, and at the same time.
Jesus they were GOOD!
Imagine there were only 50 stations on the London Underground. If you had to guess the right 4 stations, the odds would be 1 in 50 x 1 in 49 x 1 in 48 x 1 in 47.
If you knew it was next week, between Monday to Friday, well you’d have a 1 in 5 chance of getting the right day.
So even in this grossly oversimplified comparison, the odds of getting the right 4 stations on the right day of a specific 5 day week are …
1 in (50 x 49 x 48 x 47 x 5)
= 1 in 27,636,000
Now I’m staying away from conspiracy theories on this one. I’m not saying this unnamed firm who hired Visor Consultants to perform this exercise knew exactly what was going to happen on that day.
Simple mathematics is saying that there is less than 1 chance in 27,636,000 that they didn’t.
Was it an Islamic security firm do you reckon?
Well if you read the interview, they went ahead and responded to the incident when it became ‘real’. So whoever they were, they were the first responders. Hmmm.
I know these are unsavoury issues to raise, but bad as they are, it beats being dumb, and I feel this is far more pertinent than worrying about George Bush’s or Tony Blair’s obvious devotion to the Left Hand Path … http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Hand_Path
We can make it easy for you, YOU CAN”T DRINK BOOZE
UNDER ISLAM!!! Read this again when your all sober.
The USA is in the classic postion GB found it self in the Mid 1800s….empire wise its better ie. cheaper to have a load of client states, who pander to your will than actually have to take over places with military might. that last option costs money. unfortuneately generally speaking those client states usually end up getting Bolshie.. so you have to go in heavy handed o maintain your interests. Before you know it YOU are A Imperialist power.
If you do a proper study Of British empire, you will find that they would rather have kept it at enclave/client status, but were forced to invade places due to the actions of their rivals.
this was something Germany never grasped.
Running an empire costs a fuck of alot of money.
will the USA realise this ?
will they also realise “no one owns Afghanistan, you can maybe rent it for a while”
the Hindu Kush is massive & unless you plan to nuke it…….
Megapotumus
I said nothing about fluffy kittens chum. Parrots yes, ferrets yes, women with child bearing hips yes, but not fluffy kittens.
Also, regarding cowardice. I took my fight for justice to the streets, literally. Stood in the belly of the beast with those who had tasted injustice from political violence. I put my face on the TV and my name in the papers and my arse on the line for the freedom and justice of my people.
Have you ever done anything but sit at a keyboard and patter away at the keys spewing out the latest excuse for the war on Iraq, the threat of Islamic fundamentalism? Al-Qaeda never set foot in Iraq until after the US invasion. A massive point that you seem not to have understood or have chosen to ignore for the benefit of your rampant Islamophobia (Muslims are not a threat to our way of life).
Now another word about cowardice. Enlist, arm yourself and go to the front line or shut up.
Dualta: “Have you ever done anything but sit at a keyboard and patter away at the keys spewing out the latest excuse for the war on Iraq, the threat of Islamic fundamentalism? Al-Qaeda never set foot in Iraq until after the US invasion. A massive point that you seem not to have understood or have chosen to ignore for the benefit of your rampant Islamophobia (Muslims are not a threat to our way of life). ”
Actually, Ansar al-Islam, an Al-Qaeda affiliated organization, was extant in Iraq prior to the invasion. Additionally, there were injured Al-Qaeda personnel receiving medical treatment in Iraq at the same time.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, which I will cheerfully defend your right to have. You are not, however, entitled to your own facts.
Dread,
I stand corrected on that point.
http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/mena/ansarbk020503.htm
But if you remember, the Bush administration had accused Hussein of being involved in some way with Al-Qaeda, which was the real point which I was making. They later admitted that they were wrong on this.
Is this now the latest justification for the invasion of Iraq? The presence of Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq?
After the argument about WMD being wholly discredited and then the regime change argument having been shown to lack any credibility it would not be hard to tackle this latest excuse for and excuse.
It is about the oil.
Dualta: “But if you remember, the Bush administration had accused Hussein of being involved in some way with Al-Qaeda, which was the real point which I was making. They later admitted that they were wrong on this. ”
And some of the records recovered from Iraq’s intelligence organizations suggest that they were right the first time around, but, seeing as I don’t read Arabic and we’ve already proved Saddam was a better than average liar, I’d say most honest answer I have is “I dunno” if they were already in league, in negotiations, or a pair of Arabic wall-flowers staring at one another from across the room or willing to shoot one another at the drop of a topper…
I do know that Saddam had had relations with terrorist organizations previously, including a few notorious fellas from the Achille Lauro incident, among others.
Dualta: “After the argument about WMD being wholly discredited and then the regime change argument having been shown to lack any credibility it would not be hard to tackle this latest excuse for and excuse. ”
Depends on whom you ask. There were a number of illegal weapons systems recovered — items that Iraq, by the terms of the ceasefire / armistance that ended the first Gulf War Iraw agreed not to have. There were also undestroyed stocks discovered in Iraq, including at least one 155mm Sarin shell used in a IED. Likewise, the coincidental placement of pesticide stockpiles next to artillery shell storage / loading facilities make me susupicious (Sarin is a derivative of a German nerve agent called ‘Tabun,’ which was originally developed as a pesticide. Whether this was part of Saddam’s strategic obfuscation or strategic camoflage, I don’t know).
I am personally apathetic on the rationale for the war — its was a war that was coming, one way or another. Based on some of the material recovered, such as the oil for food memos, it was obvious that there were some nations who had influencial figures in Saddam’s pay and that things were not on the level.
Why didn’t you losers just stick to rehashing trivia from WWII? It bores the tits off everyone but at least it isn’t troggie propaganda.
Actually, Ansar al-Islam, an Al-Qaeda affiliated organization, was extant in Iraq prior to the invasion. Additionally, there were injured Al-Qaeda personnel receiving medical treatment in Iraq at the same time.
Ansar al-Islam was utterly opposed to the regime of Saddam Hussein (and just about everyone else on the planet, other Kurds included, as well).
The other Kurds that they regularly shoot at alleged that there was an al-Qaeda link but to paraphrase the words of Mandy Rice Davies, “They would, wouldn’t they”.
It got them the US air support they wanted. Whatever it takes.
The implacable foe of Saddam Hussein is an ally of Saddam Hussein. This Orwell Minute is brought to by………
Moreover, your “extant” is a dozen crummy mountaintop villages in Northern Iraq. Woopee, a feckin’ hillbilly fart in a typhoon.
So far, I have found only Al-Zarqawi hospitalized in Iraq before the war and when he was there he was NOT, repeat NOT affiliated with al-Qaeda. He went on the lam when Jordanian security people told the Iraqis that he was in the country. The Iraqis would have killed the SOB just like we did. His momma didn’t raise no dummy.
Another fart in a typhoon.
If you are insecure in your position, deal with it. There is no need to resort to this bullshit artistry if you are an honest man.
Peddle this crap somewhere else.
Dread,
Your entire previous post says nothing of substance about the reasons for the Bush administration and their allies invading Iraq.
If you’re trying to say that the US might have been right about the WMD then you’re taking a position even the Bush administration has effectively abandoned.
Likewise, if you’re trying to say that they might have been right regarding Saddam and Al-Qaeda then, again, you’re taking a position long abandoned by the Bush administration because they have been repeated embarrassed in public by elements of their own domestic press over it.
The war was about oil Dread. It’s as simple as that. It’s the only reason put forward for the war which hasn’t been discredited.
Dualta -
You say: “Al-Qaeda never set foot in Iraq until after the US invasion. A massive point that you seem not to have understood or have chosen to ignore for the benefit of your rampant Islamophobia (Muslims are not a threat to our way of life).”
I say: Islamophobic = fear of Islam. You bet I’m Islamophobic. The Cartoon Wars gave me a very healthy fear of this “religion of peace” – especially the placards threatening beheadings if infidels dared to criticize. Threatening our freedom of speech is a direct threat to our way of life. I wish I could be as cavalier as you are regarding such things but I’m not.
Patty,
I agree that there are serious issues regarding some brands of Islam and their repercussions for those subjected to what is effectively, religious tyranny.
However, where I tend to part company with those like yourself, is on the point of how to deal with it.
The wholesale slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians in Afganistan and Iraq is not going to win the general populations of these regions away from the fundamentalists, but rather drive them into their arms. It will not make them want to live like Westerners, and who could blame them.
Once again I’ll make the most important point in all of this. The wars in Iraq and Afganistan are not about anything else for those policy-makers and politicians who started them than oil.
If people like you want to jump on their bandwagon then feel free to do so, but just don’t try to cloud the basic issues at hand.
Dualta:
It’s not about oil.
Listen, there is oil in Alaska, as well as off the coast of California. We will go get oil if we have to.
Also, there really are alternative sources of oil and we could be weaned off our addiction if we had the will. If only the price of gas were high enough in the States (a gallon of gasoline is approx. half of what it is in Europe) we would probably get around to developing the other sources. But this summer, in the States, record numbers of people are hitting the highways in their gas-guzzling SUVs for fun. We are not suffering from a lack of cheap fuel.
Our economy is booming. We are not suffering from a lack of anything.
This war is dragging on and on – if it really were about the oil, we would go in and take it. once and for all. We would not be so delicate about it.
Bush, Cheney and oil companies – they are actually very wealthy – do you really think they would go to so much trouble as to engage in a protracted war for oil? With so little success? THis does not pass the smell test.
There is a problem and it’s name is Radical Islam – and the hope/theory is that democracy and happy, empowered people in the Middle East can squash this totalitarian movement. Who knows, it might work.
Do you have any better ideas? the ostrich approach
has historically been a failure (think 1938). Assuming it’s just about oil is basically a way of passing the buck, conveniently. If you can’t help, or lend your support, at least get out of the way.
Patty,
It’s not about radical Islam. It’s not about WMD. It’s not about regime change and it’s not about regional stability. It’s about the power politics of resources to fuel economies into the next century.
In Iraq, regional power has been ceded to fundamentalist Mulsim forces. For example, in the Basra area, where the Brits are based, women are being forced to wear Burkas for the first time in recent memory.
The same shit is going down in pockets all around the country. Sharia law is now being practiced all over the place. The country is now awash with Islamic fundamentalists and the vicious brutality being shown by the US forces in places like Fallujah have become rallying cries around the Muslim world for fundamentalism and are being cited as evidence of a modern crusade to eradicate Islam.
Please explain to me how on earth the US’s military invasion and occupation of Iraq is doing anything to quell the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the world.
Dualta:
how can you say: “I took my fight for justice to the streets, literally. Stood in the belly of the beast with those who had tasted injustice from political violence. I put my face on the TV and my name in the papers and my arse on the line for the freedom and justice of my people.”
and then be so cynical?
Did you see the lines of people in Iraq risking their lives to vote? This means nothing to you?
The world and Iraq is much better off without Saddam and his 2 psycho sons. Michael Moore would have us believe they were all flying kites before the war but the lines of Iraqis waiting to cast their votes, risking their lives, and the mass graves, tell me otherwise.
You say: “It’s about the power politics of resources to fuel economies into the next century.”
Fossil fuel is both dirty and expensive. It is not the fuel of the next century.
Are you cynical by choice? Because it is easy? It’s always easier to rail against “the man” then to consider that maybe “the man” isn’t all-knowing and that maybe you, citizen of the earth, have a part to play. And if you don’t want to help than at least get out of the way.
Patty,
You are constantly ignoring the points that I am making. You still seem to be asserting that this war is being fought for the benefit of the Iraqi people and you still seem to be asserting that oil and energy politics have played no part in the decision to go to war.
I am not in the slightest bit cynical about anything but the spurious arguments being put forward to justify this unjust war. It’s easier to give into your fears and shoot from the hip at those you fear rather than to keep a level head, weight up the facts and act in a way that doesn’t make matters worse, which is what you are doing
Dualta – you say: “It’s easier to give into your fears and shoot from the hip at those you fear rather than to keep a level head, weight up the facts and act in a way that doesn’t make matters worse, which is what you are doing”
Funny thing is I think exactly that, but about you!
So, we don’t agree and it’s late out here on the West Coast. Ironically ( there’s that word again) Bush was much maligned during the elections for being an idealist. Guess what…he is! it’s not about the oil. It’s about radical islam. he hopes to bring democracy, the beacon of peace and prosperity, to the middle east.
Thanks for the discussion. Wish I could have convinced you to see my way.
Smilin Jim.
“Why didn’t you losers just stick to rehashing trivia from WWII? It bores the tits off everyone but at least it isn’t troggie propaganda.”
The re-hashing of trivia was quite good fun and in perspective re the fighting qualities of the US soldier. It was also in response to numerous daft comments like “we saved your ass in ww2, so you should lick our boots forever” As far as “boring the tits off everyone” how do you know this? I must confess to rarely reading your comments as they tend to go up from whence you defecate;¬)
The troggie propoganda bit is again probably going on in your own lunch-box, in which I am sure you are a legend. Keep smilin Jim. *retaliates for high tackle and recieves warning look from ref*
When I first stumbled upon this thread, I was amused. I mean, the Irish are proof that God has a sense of humor. A gift of comic relief.
I am part Irish. I won’t be freely admitting to that again.
I realise that this blog may be typically “left” and/or socialist, and therefore not completely representative of the Irish people. Still, there are enough insults to the US on this thread to settle any of my questions.
First, I would like to state, that in my opinion, the US did not win WW1 or WW11. But, without the US both wars would have been lost to the Allies. I think that all sides can agree to this; one guy on this thread may believe that Russia could have won WW11 on it’s own. {This isn’t supported by any “known historian”, by the way.} (It’s a shame that we didn’t know it at the time. It could have saved a lot of fuss.) Of course, he wasn’t including Japan, who incidentily had just a few years prior, kicked Russia’s arse.
On this thread, even the courage and the quality of the US troops have been disparaged. One poster likened it to a national failing. I guess Americans really aren’t very good at war. It does seem, though, we do show up. (I missed the part where the Irish showed up for anything but “Happy Hour”) We don’t start wars, we finish them. Here, you lefties can bring up Vietnam or Iraq. I dare you.
One question that I do have, what does it take for the Irish to go to war? We had 3000 KIA on 9/11. Does that not awaken your lust for war? {It did us!} If not, why not? Do you not feel that these people have asked for their date in hell. If in WW11, the US had wanted to try these “criminals” in a world court, instead of destroying their armies, the outcome might have been very different.
I know that the answer for some is appeasement. (Better Red than Dead) During the Cold War, we met you and began to know our enemies. You were lucky that we ignored you. (There are still a few communist countries around. One could do a search, and possibly move to that Utopia, Rory.)
Today, the war against the communist isn’t really over, but it is compromised by Islam. The communist haven’t yet fully realized their threat from Islam. They will, soon. Even the Irish will brgin to know our friends from the East. Maybe, there is a level of violence to which the Irish can begin to understand the lust for war and vengeance. Time will tell. (I know already, all of this is GWB’s fault.)
What you need to hope for is that the US will stay faithful to our Irish laddies and forgive her impertinence.
DickB.
Patronising and condescending. If only we had black and white telly’s back, everything would be so much clearer.
It was me who said that the Russki’s were the major factor in defeating Nazi Germany, I did stress that they could not have achieved this victory so quickly without US material aid. Also the Japs did not kick Ivan’s arse in the 1939 Russo-Japanese war. Zhukov led Soviet forces to decisevly defeat Japan, the next defeat suffered by the Japanese was at Milne bay in New Guinea at the hands of the Aussies in 1942.
Oh and BTW when y’all decide to take on the martians, will there be room under that bed for both the reds and the islamofascists;¬)
Blimey O’ Reilly is this still going on.
Pedantic perhaps but Gerry said “IF(underlined) If its GWB birthday he can rot in hell.” Turns out it wasnt so why are all these Right Wing(h)ers slabbering so much about the self titled Leader of the Free World (no laughing in the ranks please)
I’ve already said here he is a parochial disc jockey who is no more than a pimple on the arse of democracy.
I’m mildly amused by the number of Irish Americans that are renouncing their heritage over the insignificant and purile comments made by Gerry.
Wind your necks in says i and get out a bit more
Dualta: “If you’re trying to say that the US might have been right about the WMD then you’re taking a position even the Bush administration has effectively abandoned. ”
What I am saying is that some de minimus amount of WMD, specifically Sarin, has been confirmed, as it was used in an IED. I am also saying that I have questions and that there are some things that, to my eye, make me wonder. Given how long it took to find the buried remains of the Iraqi airforce, is it so preprosterous to think there may be a cache, it wouldn’t have to be the size of a single MiG fighter, lost out there in the desert?
Part of the problem from the start is that the Iraqi end of the equation was playing a coy little game. Hussein didn’t want to come clean, lest he encourage Iran. There were even some WMD materials destroyed that went unreported, such as the anthrax destroyed in situ at one of Hussein’s palaces — they didn’t report it because the big man might have objected to the use of his estate in that fashion. There is no guarantee that anyone, even the Iraqis, had a good grip on what they had or didn’t have — f’r'instance, why issue all the MOP gear if they had no WMD??
Dualta: “Likewise, if you’re trying to say that they might have been right regarding Saddam and Al-Qaeda then, again, you’re taking a position long abandoned by the Bush administration because they have been repeated embarrassed in public by elements of their own domestic press over it. ”
Would he be the first president to abandon a political arguement despite beng right? McCarthy turned out to be right about Communist infiltration into the American government and look what it got him (Russian archives confirmed a great many of his accusations). Iraq had confirmed ties to terrorists and terrorist organizations — would it be that much of a stretch for an Al-Qaeda connection? Some of what is coming out of Iraqi archives casts doubts on some of the sweeping absolutes being tossed casually about this discussion thread.
Dualta: “The war was about oil Dread. It’s as simple as that. It’s the only reason put forward for the war which hasn’t been discredited. ”
Please — if the United States wanted oil, there is Mexico and Canada — much shorter lines of communication and logistics. Hell, there are placess in America they should drill, such as off the coast of California, where oil literally bubbles up from the ocean floor, but can’t, which is ironic, don’t you think. Checking the spot oil price, I think we’ve disproved that little theory as well.
Dualta: “However, where I tend to part company with those like yourself, is on the point of how to deal with it. ”
The European tactic of “appease the aggressors” has never had a great track record, even with European agressors. It will have even less with Islamic ones.
Dread,
In Oct 04 the Iraq Survey Group’s report concluded that there were no stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq. Prior to the invasion Bush and Blair both said that Saddam was armed to the goolies with them and was about to unleash them at any minute, therefore the need for a pre-emptive strike. The only chemical weapon proven to have been used in Iraq since the Iran/Iraq war is white phosperous, used against the people of Fallujah by those who claimed to be liberating them from tyranny.
So far no proof whatsoever has been produced to link Saddam’s regime with Al-Qaeda. As I said, even the US and the UK have abandoned that argument. If you continue to stick you it you’ll just continue to look foolish.
The US has easy access to the oil in the places you list. In Iraq under Saddam, however, that was not the case, and it seemed that one of the largest oil reserves in the world was falling under the control of Russia, France, China and others, but not the US. It’s not as simple as you seem to think it is.
Lastly, Saddam was not an aggressor any more. The man did not have the means to aggress against anyone. His army was in tatters, his airforce grounded, he’d no allies and he was totally surrounded by armies much, much stronger than his.
Dread, it was about the oil.
Dualta: “In Oct 04 the Iraq Survey Group’s report concluded that there were no stockpiles of WMDs in Iraq.”
Since then, there have been several hundred WMD found — old stocks, admittedly and some weak — mustard gas, even at full strength, is not Sarin. However, some have been Sarin — a pinpoint’s worth being lethal. Likewise, as I pointed out, how easy would it be to miss a “stockpile” of Sarin (amounts don’t have to be large) the size of a 55 gallon drum when it took months to locate the Iraqi MiGs, all of which were considerably larger than a 55 gallon drum?
Dualta: “Prior to the invasion Bush and Blair both said that Saddam was armed to the goolies with them and was about to unleash them at any minute, therefore the need for a pre-emptive strike.”
Which was the information he had been given by the CIA, which is supposed to know these things.
Before you say go into the shading of information, which is worse — pre-emptively striking a “bad actor” on bad infomration or not striking him when you ought?
Dualta: “So far no proof whatsoever has been produced to link Saddam’s regime with Al-Qaeda. As I said, even the US and the UK have abandoned that argument. If you continue to stick you it you’ll just continue to look foolish. ”
Perhaps if you read and responded to what I have written, as opposed to what you wish I had written, you’d look less dense. There is a warehouse full of confiscated documents, some which would indicate that Iraq was seeking to make connections with terror groups — which was all I said, leaving al-Qaeda an open question.
He may not have been able to do things on his own, but wealth and material in other hands would serve him quite nicely.
Thank you for your kind words, Slugfest. They were as refreshing as a tall glass of seltzer to help wash away some of the bile I’ve been getting from elsewhere.
Sure we could go on a tour of Ireland – it would be nice if you bring that fine Catherine Zeta-Jones woman along for company, I would invite the hubby, Michael Douglas as well but I don’t think there are many branches of Sex Addicts Anonymous in Ireland (though, mind you, if you read Miss Fitz’s recent blog on the Donegal Democrat report, they may well be springing up like wildfire in Donegal).
You’ll have to provide the transport, I’m afraid. Maybe ‘phone Arnie and borrow his armoured Humvee. We might need it to deflect the shots that’ll be fired at us once they catch sight of me inside.
I wouldn’t say I wouldn’t want the fortune but sure what would I do with it? I have enough for me daily dinner, a few pints and a clean shirt every now and then and although my macro-economic thoughts are inspired by Marx, me personal ones are more inspired by Micawber. But I suppose we could have great fun driving around Ireland with the lovely Catherine in Arnie’s big Humvee spending like billyo and doling out lashings of loot to the poor and needy.
p.s. Sssh! We won’t be bringing Herself along so best we keep stum about Catherine – otherwise she’ll be reaching for the wooden spoon again and bringing it sharp around me ears.
News just in;
It has been reported that Saddam Hussien has been convicted and sentenced to death. He has been given a choice of how he would like to be executed.
His request is that it be death by firing squad, on one condition that those doing the shooting do so from 12 yards. And that they consist of certain Englishmen by the name of Gerard, Lampard and Carragher.
Expecting to live to a ripe old age then Saddam.
Saddam’s fate is worse than that, Prince.
They have just reviewed the sentance and he is instead assigned to a politcal re-education camp with GWB as his personal tutor. Pity the US constitution doesn’t apply in the ‘new free’ Iraq or he could probably appeal under the ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ proviso.
Poor Saddam is reported to have been dragged away screaming, “No, no! not that! Anything but that! Shoot me! Shoot me, please!”
I think the poor man would even be happy instead to face a shooting party with Gerard & co on the squad though it would be a brutal reminder of James Connolly’s execution when his death squad hopelessly botched their cruel duty and left the man broken,mangled and torn to be despatched by a shaking officer with a pistol.
It’s enough to bring a grown man to tears, isn’t it? A bit like David Beckham I suppose.
“They have just reviewed the sentance and he is instead assigned to a politcal re-education camp with GWB as his personal tutor. Pity the US constitution doesn’t apply in the ‘new free’ Iraq or he could probably appeal under the ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ proviso.
Poor Saddam is reported to have been dragged away screaming, “No, no! not that! Anything but that! Shoot me! Shoot me, please!”
Rory. Does Saddam not know that the US saved his ass in WW2, he should be grateful just to breath US provided oxygen. A monster indeed, but a monster if not created, then substantially encouraged by other monsters. Remember Halabja!!!!
This Orwell moment was brought to you by………………the chicken hawks.
Since then, there have been several hundred WMD foundold stocks, admittedly and some weakmustard gas, even at full strength, is not Sarin.
550 rounds to my recollection.
Now Sluggiepoos, when I left the great green machine the first civilian job I got was just outside my hometown in the desert working an Army artillery range. I got 5 grand a year and some really cool exposure to artillery while laying out firing fans for the post engineer.
The groundpounder’s 155 howitzer in the Vietnam era had a sustained rate of fire of 2 rounds per minute. You could boost it up to 4 rounds for a short period of time but chances are you would overheat the barrel. One battery was about 5 or 6 guns.
Now I know how much you Internet lounge lizards hate story problems so I’ll do the math for you. Your ONE battery’s barrage will not last through the Sopranos.
Yeah, another fart in a typhoon.
Now for you Prince baby, it wouldn’t bore the tits off me so much if you were better at it. We know how dicey this bozo’s arguments are by now but you’re letting him wipe the floor with you. You guys aren’t a tag team, are you?
Smilin.
Haven’t got the foggiest old boy. Seriously man, I am not involved in the same discussion that you are(specifics about Iraq war), don’t know if I want to be really. Merely giving opinions that skirt the various issues. Know what you mean about the bozo’s dicey arguments though. Tell you what Jim, be my guest wipe the floor with him, and I’ll try not to tag team him, agreed.
Dread,
Weak stuff again. One more time. We were told that he had stockpiles of chemical weapons and was poised to use them against his enemies, namely us. No stockpiles or even evidence of stockpiles has been produced. No factories, no mobile facilities, nothing of any value really apart from a tiny amount of material ‘found’ by the US forces themselves. And Gerard Duddy had nail-bombs in his pockets. Even if the US forces genuiinely found it, it still represents absolutely no evidence of Bush’s and Blair’s claims directly before the war.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0521/p09s01-coop.html
Those intelligence documents are a farce.
http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen04292003.html
Dread, it was about the oil.
GW Crawford :
When Stalin told the European unions to sabotage the Allied war effort, they did just that
I’m afraid I don’t recall doing this, nor do I recall the unions in Europe having much of an effect on the war. Can you provide a source to support your claim ?
My favourite point during the war was definitely where I befriended FDR and got him to side with me against the Brits. Made carving up Eastern Europe a hell of a lot easier. The Americans like to take the credit for ending communism, but I wonder if they’d have been able to do that had they not played such a significant role in helping me get it off the ground in the first place.
Today, I’m still fascinated by the American perspective on global threats. They maintain they were right to occupy a country and overthrow it’s regime because they had fictitious weapons of mass destruction. Meanwhile, North Korea is actively developing nuclear weapons and is firing unannounced missiles around the place.
These days, I just smile when I see the Chinese premier on the lawn of the White House with the Red Flag flying overhead. The Chinese are carrying on my creed – that if you’re big and ugly enough, the Americans won’t have the balls to stop you making threats and abusing civil rights, and they’ll try to set up an alliance with you instead. That was where Hussein went wrong.
What appears to be lacking among several American contributors here (other than a few notable ones) is introspection. Instead of kneejerkedly reacting to every single occasion when someone criticizes Bush or US foreign policy, don’t you think it would be worthwhile to calmly consider the background to these things ?
And, I love the way apparently tonnes of Americans (how many unique ones are there, really ? If only Slugger displayed IP addresses …) come on to dismiss this criticism, and then go on to say that they don’t really give a damn anyway. It’s a great irony. I love the repeated “I don’t think we’ll visit there on our vacation” stuff. Jeez. Most of the entire planet is comprised of people who either disagree with American foreign policy, or are worried that they’re next on the list of people who are to be “liberated” by dint of a quick death at the hands of mass carpet bombing.
As for Americans themselves – the election was decided on a swing of 1.5% – Kerry came within a hair of winning more votes than Bush. The USA today is a deeply divided country, and to say that American citizens uniformly endorse their President or foreign policies would be seriously misleading.
I mean, take Dread Cluthu :
Hardly denial. I know exactly why I voted as I did. It is hard to be inspired about a candidate who looks down from the podium and proposes trillions in new spending as Kerry did and not one word of how he planned to pay for it all.
But yet, you were inspired by a man who claims to want to bring peace and democracy to the world, and eliminate the threat of terrorism, without a single word of either how he planned to pay for it, or how he actually planned to achieve it. Bush’s war on terrorism has been a failure, a failure exemplified every time Osama Bin Laden puts out a statement, and soon to be further exemplified by the return to power of the Taleban in Afghanistan.
Oh jesus. It’s bad enough having the rightists here, but here come the crazy left “BushCo detonated the WTC” nut-jobs.
There is no credibility to the claims that the WTC was blown up. The official view of the WTC’s collapse is not under any kind of serious dispute.
It’s certainly reasonable to argue that more could have been done to stop the attacks. It’s definitely reasonable to argue that what has been done since the attacks has not helped to reduce the probability of future attacks, nor has it addressed the procedural failings that led to the attacks being so deadly. But please, get over this silly black helicopter nonsense.
h helpfully gets us back on track :
Ireland: A country who during WWII not only gave Hitler logistic and intel support
No they didn’t. But didn’t IBM ?
All this silly anti-American talk will cease the day the Muslims declare the Caliphate in Dublin and turn your churches into mosques.
I am serious disturbed by this post and several others which appear to be from more intelligent people such as Dread, which essentially mark out a religious belief as the enemy. Replace “Muslim” for “Jew” and you’ve essentially got the same arguments that were used to justify the haulocaust. The Chinese are doing the same thing with Falun Gong.
What on earth makes you think that there is any realistic possibility of this happening ? Anyone who tries to impose their religion on me had better get ready for a fight.
Comrade Stalin: “But yet, you were inspired by a man who claims to want to bring peace and democracy to the world, and eliminate the threat of terrorism, without a single word of either how he planned to pay for it, or how he actually planned to achieve it. ”
Did I say that, CS?
I had five candidates for President this time around. So, unless until you know which one of the four I ultimately pulled, (Republican, Libertarian, Green or Independent), you’re just talking our your fourth point of contact. Just because *YOU* are blissfully unaware of there were more than the two candidates doesn’t mean there weren’t other options.
Comrade Stalin: “I am serious disturbed by this post and several others which appear to be from more intelligent people such as Dread, which essentially mark out a religious belief as the enemy. ”
Are you saying my reading of Islam is somehow inaccurate, or simply impolitic? Are you saying their religion does not divide the world into “Dar-al-Islam” and “Dar-al-Harb?” Are you saying their holy book does not say “smite the infidel’s” in several variations? Please, by all means, if this is just some monstrous misprint, please supply the proof… until then, I will cheerfully subscribe to the information they themselves provide.
Dualta: “The documents are a farce.”
Plenty of hyperbole, a trifle thin on evidence. What is his (or your) qualifications as either an intelligence officer or a document analyst? The article is a great deal of speculation and guilt by association, presented by a partisan commenter on a partisan blog. I can link several rebuttal ones, but they would be only marginally better, Powerline at least having several readers knowledgable about document analysis, typeface, etc.
The biggest difference between us, Dualta, is I am saying there is a great deal in the category of “unknown,” whilst you seem to be believing what you are told by those who politics you agree with.
If it was a war for oil, as you say, then there were better targets and better opportunities than Iraq. If it were a war for oil, a greater concentration would have been placed on pipeline security and production, rather than wasting manpower on building power-plants in excess of what existed prior to the invasion.
Frankly, the numbers say you’re wrong — the amount of oil that would have to be pumped out of that sandbox to balance the books on this little operation pretty much kills your arguement.
nice to see the ugly American out in full force on this thread… makes me so glad to be back home… yea right!
Back in the US after a recent ten day trip to Belfast I was home the day before the 4th so I can tell you there was NO mention in the mainstream media about this BBC bit froma nythign I saw… if I hadn’t been catching up on reading Slugger I’d never would have heard of it… to all my fellow Americans who were/are so incensed… I say *get a grip*… or in Norn Iron *catch yerself*
I say so becuase I’m highly amused at the offence some of my fellow Americans have epressed here… for there’s enough talkradio dj’s on-air here in the Sttes who’d wish Bush the same as Gerry Anderson did or conversely sound like our AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT posters… a case defending one’s freedom of speech at home but let some EUROPEAN say something critcal about the US and it’s circle-the-wagons time, threaten to never visit Ireland, renounce Irish roots etc., etc. getting hostile and arrogant… sheesh!!!
And despite the anti-American hostility lobbed back in response here in my personal experience most of the people I’ve met in NI aren’t automatically hostile to Americans, especially if one shows a bit of interest in things beyond the US.
Had to laugh at the American republican’s assertion that democrats don’t carry passposrt because they can’t afford it… and the equally absurd assertion someone made slagging republicans that only democrats carry passports because they care about issues beyond the US border… could we possibly make any more broad assumptions that are totally false on both sides!?!?! Too funny!!!
“Are you saying their religion does not divide the world into “Dar-al-Islam” and “Dar-al-Harb?” Are you saying their holy book does not say “smite the infidel’s” in several variations? Please, by all means, if this is just some monstrous misprint, please supply the proof… until then, I will cheerfully subscribe to the information they themselves provide.”
Well, if you’re basing your opinions of a large chunk of the world’s population on their religious literature, perhaps you would like to try explaining some of the violent exhortations to be found in the Bible? Like the ones condoning slavery and spousal abuse for a start. It’s all “smite, smite, smite” to me anyway…
I am not involved in the same discussion that you are(specifics about Iraq war),
It is probably a matter of motivation. I read ahead and found out how WWII ended.
I still regard that WWII generation as the greatest generation of Americans ever, especially compared with the current shower.
Just the same, the US and the Commonwealth did fight the Germans to the last Russian. This was probably obvious to a few eggheads that actually studied the campaigns but no one wanted to even seem to show any sympathy for the Russians during the Cold War . This concept is beginning to bleed into the mainstream culture through those interminable war documentaries on the cable & satellite channels.
Americans are conditioned to be sensitive about this. Most of us were raised on John Wayne or some washed up kickboxer saving the world for democracy so any deviation from that line is bound to be met with a little confusion.. If they watched PBS recently, they also found out that John Ford made John Wayne’s life utterly miserable just after the war because Da Duke refused to join the armed forces (or probably the greatest crime to an egoist like Ford) join him (Ford) anywhere near the shooting war. I think we can cut them all some slack if they are a skosh cognitively disassociated.
Donnacha: “Well, if you’re basing your opinions of a large chunk of the world’s population on their religious literature, perhaps you would like to try explaining some of the violent exhortations to be found in the Bible? Like the ones condoning slavery and spousal abuse for a start. It’s all “smite, smite, smite” to me anyway… ”
Ah, but their religion, politics and culture are far more conflated that Christianity and that “western world.”