Unionists say No to St. Pat’s Festival (again)
Unionist councillors in Belfast have renewed their opposition to funding Belfast’s St. Patrick’s Day festival next year, in spite of findings from a council funded independent survey that indicated general support for the festivities amongst protestants this year. The grounds for continued opposition cited by UUP councillor Jim Rodgers was that the carnival remains a “coat-trailing exercise.” Of course, such considerations were swept aside when unionist councillors voted to fund loyalist 11th night bonfires, which of course are inclusive gatherings…
“Why are you so offended not to be included in something you claim cannot by nature include you?”
I’m not remotely offended by being excluded-I confirmed the accuracy of your interpretation. I just don’t like being told it’s cross community. it’s no more cross community than the Chinese new year, and that at least is celebrated with a lot less of the patriotism of the cider-swigging Celtic-top straining spides of West Belfast staggering round town- but, hey , if that’s their culture…
“Moreover – the “Unionism” is not “the Union”; merely the political opinion that supports it.”
Republicanism ain’t the republic either-so your point is…?
“It doesn’t matter which came first … The two are mutually exclusive”
Actually it matters very much, and there is a subtle and important distinction between two things being “mutually exclusive” (suggesting no blame) and something being “exclusionary” (suggesting blame), and you have attenpted to blur that distinction for your own benefit. Ain’t going to work with this hombre!”
..or translated “we wus here first. Your politics are therefore less legitimate than ours.” Obviously its our fault that we are not all one happy united people- if only we could all stop being Unionists. Same old rant, in a new package.
Very well thought out and articulated BT.
Darth. Why are Unionist problems with Nationalism always in the minutiae? where we can all go and get tangled up for years.
People all over the world would scratch their heads and laugh about all this shite. Then again this is not a new occurance for unionism.
Paddy’s day events are a way of celebrating the Irish nation and those with a sense of Irishness(or those who just like a good time) can enjoy the occassion all over the world. Some of the only places they don’t occur is where belligerance towards expressions of Irishness exists. Unfortunately Belfast is one of those places.
Darth
Piss Poor answer, but let’s try and make some gold from this straw.
“I just don’t like being told it’s cross community. it’s no more cross community than the Chinese new year,”
I never claimed it was cross-community, and what’s more I don’t care what you like. I simply don’t accept that it needs to be cross-community to be a valid expression of the Irish nation. Attempts were made, wrongly but goodspiritedly in my view, to reach across. What was bloody clear is that the unionist body politic, which had demanded such reaching, showed its true colours; it didn’t actually want to be reached, it actually resented it. It was just an excuse, as many of us had long suspected.
Ergo, when they claimed it was necessary to reach, they were lying. Fine, they’re liars. Their choice. But we won’t be taking their views seriously again in a hurry.
If more unionists like yourself were honest about their anti-irishness, which to be fair, you have been, then the Allaince-y charade could be dispatched where it belongs, and we might all get on with enjoying our own lives.
” and that at least is celebrated with a lot less of the patriotism of the cider-swigging Celtic-top straining spides of West Belfast staggering round town- but, hey , if that’s their culture… ”
Well, several chinese I know, both mainland, and taiwanese, are very patriotic, and make no secret of it. Good luck to them too. Anyway…
Whereas of course, as you will vouch, Darth, no expression of the British Culture on this island has ever been attended or celebrated by large numbers of McEwans downing, Rangers-top straining spides of East or South Belfast, or Portadown, or Ballymena etc, etc, etc …
Of Course, there are differences in these ‘cultures’.
The Celtic wearing spide celebration on March 17th hasn’t brought the country to halt most of the last ten years.
The organisers, cider swilling away though they of course are, haven’t to my knowledge enlisted paramilitaries in diggers to get down any road, contested or otherwise.
March 17th lasts one day, not three months.
Glasshouse and stones spring to mind, Garth.
“Republicanism ain’t the republic either-so your point is…”
…quite clearly set out in the last post. Read it again.
“or translated “we wus here first. Your politics are therefore less legitimate than ours.”
Again, tosh of the first water. Is this a profession for you, Darth, or just amateur talent?
The point was very clear. It didn’t matter who was ‘here first’. What mattered was that the unionist community changed its collective mind about what nation it belonged to, and then blamed the rest of us on the island, the irish nation,for excluding them from the irish nation, when they chose the exclsuionary viewpoint of unionism precisely because they wanted to be excluded from the irish nation!
now I don’t care what nation you belong to, you can be ugandan for all I care. It’s your choice, as is your politics, and you’re welcome to it.
But which ever choice you make does have consequences, and in the case before us the consequence is that, choosing to not be part of the irish nation, and with clearly no intention of ever so being, you don’t get a say in the synbols of that nation, or how it celebrates its national identity on its national holiday.
Simple, really, Garth. do keep up.
no paddys day in centre of town but orange parades can be forced through nationalist areas, Unionist veto – double standard are alive and well in NI
“Simple, really, Garth. do keep up.
Posted by The Beach Tree on Jun 28, 2006 @ 03:16 PM”
Dear Leach tree- please firstly get my name right.
Modesty should prevent me, but sodddit-it’s not a question of keeping up- the sad fact is I’m so far ahead of you I’m about to lap you.Now, to the argument, which you seem to have avoided in a welter of lowgrade personal abuse and ramblings
Every year we get gurning about loyalist bonfires being about as cultural as the public toilets on a Saturday night in Shaftesbury Square- a view with which I have some sympathy BTW-yet identical behaviour for Paddy’s Day is only better because, in your view, it’s only one day. Right oh. Still can’t see Brian Sewell including it in the great cultural experiences of the western world. And like many orangemen I’ve never been to an 11th night bonfire BTW-too busy organising banners, bowlers, brollies for the 7.00 start the next day. I don’t feel I’ve missed much.
See I’m not big on parity of esteem, which just leads to a failure to exercise judgment, but I’m all for parity of contempt. Everything wrong in my community’s culture is fair game if you put it in context of the same or similar behaviour from your community. Implicitly you’ve done that with your “but we don’t do it for three months” whine. Now get it out in the open.
I’m not anti-Irish either- in fact I’m one of Yeats’ “no petty people” and even a fruity old dreamer like him finally cottoned on to the fact that the “official” Irishness of the state was excluding him, and me. So i’ve a much broader notion of Irishness than you. It’s the Shinners who fear the south’s new multi-culturalism- can’t adapt to jigging at crossroads with Nigerians and Poles you see. 1 half-asian Dublin footballer’s OK, but God help the irish people if themmuns are not just the prods , but all the influx of Blacks, browns etc. Of course official SF-speak disowns this line, but you don’t have to go too far down the chain of command before the language of nationalism becomes the language of racism- as my contacts in County Cork have shown me this year……
“choosing to not be part of the Irish nation, and with clearly no intention of ever so being, you don’t get a say in the synbols of that nation”-
Oh I do if they are my symbols , and you are stealing them to make a proprietorial point. You can keep on claiming title to the orange, but you’re not going to be allowed to do so unchallenged. Or do Shinners, choosing not to be a part of the British nation forfeit their right to get a say in the symbols of our nation- like “Londonderry”, which they want to change- or carson’s statue at Stormont, which they want moved. Parity of contempt dear boy.
Finally you’re the one labouring the “Unionism is reactionary and thus less valid” role. Don’t get precious if we all see the subtext of that.
What Miss Fitz seems to me to be asking here is how do we repackage the patron saint of all of Ireland so that the image becomes acceptable to people to whom the very concept of an “all of Ireland” is threatening?
The simple answer, it seems to me, is that we cannot. Certainly not without making the whole concept meaningless or so distorting it as to be totally unrecognisable and a figure open to ridicule.
Really I think the question goes back to the unionists – do you wish to share in this celebration of the Irish national saint, to join with all others on this island (and indeed throughout the world) in celebrating our pride and joy in being Irish?
The response from the Unionists of Belfast City Council at least appears to be, “No, we do not”.
To which I would reply, “Fine then. Don’t. But don’t say you were not invited. Maybe nxt year?”
Garth
1. I rather doubt your real name is Darth Rumsfeld, so I’m frankly going to mock it how i please.
2. Dear sweet jesus, if your going to try and mock Beach Tree, at least remember Leech is spealt Leech.
3. “the sad fact is I’m so far ahead of you I’m about to lap you”
Self praise is no recommendation, Garth. And there’s absolutely no content in your reply to back you up. Stupidity I can pity, but Stupidity and arrogance, yeesh.
4. “yet identical behaviour for Paddy’s Day is only better because, in your view, it’s only one day”
Well one day of crap, is clearly about 90 times better than about 90 days of crap. So yes, it’s better. Plus, I haven’t noticed too many sexual and violent attacks around Paddy’s day parades. So I would seriously quibble on the ‘identical’.
But yes I certainly dislike intensely public drunkeness on Paddy’s day, so I support the alcohol bans.
As for Sewell, it might be an idea to remember a key difference exists between culture, and art, which is but one of its forms.
But frankly, I don’t care about the bonfires, and you are welcome to them, for one clear reason – they are kept to areas where they are wanted.
“Everything wrong in my community’s culture is fair game if you put it in context of the same or similar behaviour from your community.”
No, Darth. Everything wrong in your community is fair game. Full stop. Everything wrong in ‘my’ community is fair game. Full stop. But anything more is whataboutery and moral evasion.
“I’m not anti-Irish either…I’ve a much broader notion of Irishness than you”
Not anti-irish..pull the other one, it rings.
As for the ‘broad notion of Irishness’, Irish Coffee is Irish, Irish Linen is Irish, Irish Wolfhounds (born wherever) are irish. But none of them are members of the Irish nation, who alone have the right to the Irish National Symbols.
“It’s the Shinners who fear the south’s new multi-culturalism- can’t adapt to jigging at crossroads with Nigerians and Poles you see.”
Since I’m not a Shinner, and have never followed or voted for the party in my life, I can’t comment on what they think, bit I’d be amazed if the various irish dancing classes of the 26 counties don’t have few eastern european kids floating around in them. I certainly know a couple north of the border.
The irish nation historically assimilated celts, vikings, normans, the english, all no problem. From them all we learned artwork, heraldry, construction, town planning, government and common law. We happily accepted those inventions and they imbued the irish nation and irish society.
Why? Because those peoples were willing to , and wanted to, join in. That’s the difference.
“1 half-asian Dublin footballer’s OK, but God help the irish people if themmuns are not just the prods , but all the influx of Blacks, browns etc. Of course official SF-speak disowns this line, but you don’t have to go too far down the chain of command before the language of nationalism becomes the language of racism-”
You’ll understand if i treat your hearsay evidence with skepticism. People are indeed racist, all over the world. It’s a vile thing. I’ve seen little to no evidence that it is worse in the south than anywhere elese in the world, and a fair bit of evidence that it’s actually considerably better.For a small conutry with little recent experience of economic immigration, they’ve actually coped very well.
Meanwhile your community has continued to forge ahead with its reputation as one of the most inhospitable to foreigners in these islands.
“Oh I do if they are my symbols , and you are stealing them to make a proprietorial point.”
Oh no you don’t, because they aren’t your symbols. They are our symbols, and if they originated anywhere else, they originated with the dutch, and ‘you’ stole them from the dutch. ‘Your symbols’! Christ, this psychosis knows no bounds.
As for the colour itself, claiming moral or intellectual copyright to a wavelength of light may yet be the most ludicrous and pathetic thing I’ve heard yet.
” You can keep on claiming title to the orange, but you’re not going to be allowed to do so unchallenged.”
What, do you honestly think your challenge will be taken seriously, or have any hope of success? Dream on. Or would you agree then that since Eriu, (also known as Erin) is a ancient celtic goddess, and a creation therefore of the literary genius of the Irish nation, the Irish nation have a right to everything with then name Ireland or Irish in it (since the vikings who came to Ireland called it Eiru-land, or Ire-land, and they’ve long since joined the irish nation)? In which case we’ll be having your football team first, thank ye. Oh, actually we’ll just have the name of the whole country while we are at it.
What utter nonsense!
(Post 1 of 2)
(Post 2 of 2)
” Or do Shinners, choosing not to be a part of the British nation forfeit their right to get a say in the symbols of our nation- like “Londonderry”,”
Well first, by that reasoning, we’ll have ‘Derry;, including the “walls” and the “apprentice boys” back, thanks – you can keep the London bit.
What petty nonsense you spout, Garth.
Moreover, you can keep the name if you wish, apply it to a bus shelter or something, but the city, well, it’s not a symbol of your nation, it’s a city – full of people mostly of the Irish nation, and it’s their’s to call what they wish.
“or carson’s statue at Stormont, which they want moved.”
I don’t really care where Carson’s statue goes to be honest. Why not plant it outside Westminster, pointing to the rear of Kimng Richard’s horse?
“Finally you’re the one labouring the “Unionism is reactionary and thus less valid” role. Don’t get precious if we all see the subtext of that.”
Unionism is reactionary. I didn’t say that meant it was less valid. To be honest, it’s not validity it lacks, it’s worth.
What does makes unionism incompatible, with membership of the irish nation, is that it
a) doesn’t want to be part of the nation.
b) is not loyal to the nation.
No more than that, and no less.
It’s a perfectly valid poltical opinion to have as part of the British nation. But as such, it gives you’s no say on the symbols of the Irish nation. Full Stop.
And really, Garth, I doubt you see the subtext in anything. There’s nothing in the posts you’ve written to suggest you do.
feel better now Beachie? Now you’ve got your second wind, have another crack at this-
“As for the colour itself, claiming moral or intellectual copyright to a wavelength of light may yet be the most ludicrous and pathetic thing I’ve heard yet.”
- I didn’t, but while we’re on the (soooo sensitive) subject why not Green white and brown, or fuchsia, or taupe? The moral copyright you rightly denigrate is..er, the claim that people you know don’t want to be part of your nation are symbolically part of your nation.
There’s a common thread in your posts I’ve noticed. State a position, which a Unionist agrees with, and because the Unionist agrees with it from a different perspective then start foaming at the mouth and dash off six hundred words of wibble.
“What, do you honestly think your challenge will be taken seriously, or have any hope of success?”
it’s been completely successful in that -with the dubious exception of Billy Leonard,
I can’t think of a single Orangeman who has fallen for the charms of irish republicanism. i wasn’t going to go to the Dulux court of colour and regisiter orange as a trademark you know!
“Unionism is reactionary. I didn’t say that meant it was less valid. To be honest, it’s not validity it lacks, it’s worth.”
Go on – explain that one for the slow learners, and do it without resorting to the demeaning cant of your previous posts. it’s 1886-or 1912- or 1950-or any year until , say, 1990. Being an integral part of what has been one of the leading nations of the world has less “worth” than supporting an insignificant confessional state with an economy marginally superior to Romania. Post 1990 you can begin to argue the economics with a little more confidence. But what’s the “worth” of a country that still has a very long way to go to persuade me into it instead of lecturing me that I should stop being in some sort of communal self-denial? Remember the open arms of the poeple of Cork in 2005 when an orange lodge was due to take part in the parade- as part of a section emphasising the diverse elements of Cork society, for pity’s sake? Invitation reluctantly declined in the face of threats of protest and lack of guarentees of safety- that’s what it was “worth”.
“Stupidity I can pity, but Stupidity and arrogance, yeesh.”
You’re right again. Nationalist self-pity is extremely trying.But they’ve turned it into a national mass participation exercise- called MOPEry
“What does makes unionism incompatible, with membership of the irish nation, is that it
a) doesn’t want to be part of the nation.
b) is not loyal to the nation.”
I’ve just picked up on this interesting reverse test you’ve set for Unionists to be Irish. It seems we are potentially disloyal. I wonder why you add this additional impediment specifically to Unionist membership of the Irish nation. Do you demand this loyalty test of irish-born children of the Latvians, Lithuanians, Nigerians who are such a welcome addition to the celtic tiger? If Muslim immigrants don’t have to take a citizenship test and pledge allegiance to the flag etc etc, why need we?
The racism I described and you dismissed as hearsay, is now a little bit more than that- it’s on this thread, and you’re the source. Shame on you
” I didn’t, but while we’re on the (soooo sensitive) subject why not Green white and brown, or fuchsia, or taupe?”
Because we like orange. Are YOU Brian Sewell, or a noted vexicologist? thought not.
“The moral copyright you rightly denigrate is..er, the claim that people you know don’t want to be part of your nation are symbolically part of your nation. ”
Actually it’s an aspiration, not a claim; and we can aspire to whatever we please.
“…six hundred words of wibble.”
I’m glad you take such interest in my posts. You’ll understand no doubt however that I don’t really care one way or the other for your dubious psycological insights. Still, all shits and giggles if it keeps you happy.
“[the challenge] you’ve set for Unionists to be Irish”
No, Garth, not to be irish, in the way coffee or stew might be, but to members of the Irish nation. Two different things.
“Do you demand this loyalty test of irish-born children of the Latvians, Lithuanians, Nigerians who are such a welcome addition to the celtic tiger? ”
To tsay, work, pay taxes and contribute in society? No. to be part of the Irish nation? yes.
“If Muslim immigrants don’t have to take a citizenship test and pledge allegiance to the flag etc etc, why need we? ”
Yes, I expect the children of Latvian, Lithuanian and Nigerian, Muslim and Hindi, Sikh, Christian and Jew, indeed frankly ALL children born in Ireland, who wish to take up their membership of the Irish nation to be loyal to that nation. If they wish to be part of the nation (which unionists don’t) and are willing to be loyal to the nation (Which unionists aren’t), then regardless of colour or creed, religion or race, they are welcome. Neither parentage pallor, or prayer bars them.
And your petty slur of racism is disgusting and venal. Shame on you.
As we never hear the end of Brookeborough’s seventy year old quote about not employing RCs becuse ninety percent of them were supposedly disloyal in shocked tones from nationalists, I think it’s reasonable to infer that when someone says all Unionists are potentially disloyal while Muslims citizens of the RoI who clearly exhibit a diferent loyalty by their cultural expression without so much as a raised eyebrow in theri direction, then that person has a disciminatory mindset. If you’d prefer to be dubbed sectarian then that’s fair enough. Or are you a supporter of the views of the late Lord?
The Beach Tree,
Thankyou for all of your posts on this thread, especially for those in which you emphasise that being an Irish patriot is entirely consistent with being antiracist.
Orangemen are completely welcome to recognise their own ‘Irishness’ as their forefathers did quite happily. Their refusal to accept what others, including those British people who are even aware of Irish unionists, do is their and our loss. Don’t let them away with the pretence of exclusion by the rest of us. It’s unionists who want apartheid, as do other supremacists in other parts of the world.
lib2106
…but it’s Nationalists who want apartheid-vide hundreds of posts about “nationalist areas” not having to thole Orange parades
Darth,
If you deduce that from the posts made then its one you agree with, right? Otherwise you’d back Republican parades in Ballymena, Larne and all over east Belfast.
Garth
Is that it? Is that your best response?
“As we never hear the end of Brookeborough’s seventy year old quote about not employing RCs becuse ninety percent of them were supposedly disloyal in shocked tones from nationalists, I think it’s reasonable to infer that when someone says all Unionists are potentially disloyal while Muslims citizens of the RoI who clearly exhibit a diferent loyalty by their cultural expression without so much as a raised eyebrow in theri direction, then that person has a disciminatory mindset.”
So now your gurning because I supposedly treat muslims well, or at least better than You? Do you notlike Muslims or something?
And I’m the racist? And I’m guilty of Mopery?
Your’re a comic, Garth.
“If you’d prefer to be dubbed sectarian then that’s fair enough. Or are you a supporter of the views of the late Lord? ”
I think you should read my posts more closely, for your own education
I Quote ““Do you demand this loyalty test of irish-born children of the Latvians, Lithuanians, Nigerians who are such a welcome addition to the celtic tiger? “
To stay, work, pay taxes and contribute in society? No.”
Are you arguments so poor you must invent opposing ones to make a point?
“To be honest, it’s not validity it lacks, it’s worth.”
Go on – explain that one for the slow learners”
The only test of the validity of an opinion is whether it genuinely held. Your particular form of anti-irish unionism is clearly dearly kep, so I’ve no problem with that.
“Being an integral part of what has been one of the leading nations of the world has less “worth” than supporting an insignificant confessional state with an economy marginally superior to Romania”
Ah, but you see, that’s where you’re going wrong.
Apart from the casual racism against the Romanians, which we’ll leave for now, you equate being a member of the British nation, which though I’m not a member, I fully accept has worth, with supporting unionism, a political opinion rightly equated with b1gotry, sectionlism, triumphalism, reactionism and intolerance.
A political creed that insisted at gunpoint on the division of Ireland against the expressed will of both the Irish and British Nations.
A political creed whose leaders called for, not tolerated, called for, religious discrimination in employment.
A political creed that supports and rewards the b1gotry and triumphalism of the Orange Order.
A political creed that considered its privileges more important than equality, democracy or morality.
A political creed that has sought through its history to hide, destroy and distort the symbols of the Irish Nation, including St Patricks day because in the final analysis, it cannot stand the existance of that nation.
And you expect that to be respected? You expext that to be endured?
You wish.
Sometimes it’s best to just let a post of swuch unmitigated bile stand by itself as a suitable epitaph on the tragic waste of a God-given brain to a human being.
And sometimes there has to be help given to those who do not wish it, so , for the final time…
“Do you notlike Muslims or something?”
By saying that many muslims do not have an adherence to the state am I being controversial? But you don’t want them to take a loyalty test-just Unionists
“A political creed that insisted at gunpoint on the division of Ireland against the expressed will of both the Irish and British Nations.”
Unlike the founding fathers of the Republic who rode to power handing out choc ices to the populace backed by a mandate of less than 50% of the irish electorate, and less than 20% of the UK electorate. And shouldn’t you be supporting the Good Friday Agreement which legitimised NI so far as RoI is concerned?
“A political creed that considered its privileges more important than equality, democracy or morality.”
-Unlike a state that reserved a special place for the RC church in its constitution for decades, and helped in the cover up of institutional abuse of the weak and orphaned placed in the care of that church for decades
“A political creed that has sought through its history to hide, destroy and distort the symbols of the Irish Nation, including St Patricks day because in the final analysis, it cannot stand the existance of that nation.”
-Unlike a state that removed every aspect of Britishness that it could, and took over 80 years to acknowledge its citizens role fighting with Britain in the Great War
“A political creed whose leaders called for, not tolerated, called for, religious discrimination in employment.”
-Unlike DeValera’s rallying cry-”Protestants of ireland, we want you as our librarians!” What was that he said again about boasting of Ireland being “a Catholic state”?
“A political creed that supports and rewards the b1gotry and triumphalism of the Orange Order.”
-Unlike the RoI governing party handing out guns and the judiciary failing to extradite killers to its neighbour.
“Apart from the casual racism against the Romanians, which we’ll leave for now,”
well let’s not. If pointing out the (as I had mistakenly thought) uncontentious statement that the Romanian economy wasn’t exactly the powerhouse of Europe I’m a racist, then so is every 20th century economist. That Keynes -what a devil!
“being an Irish patriot is entirely consistent with being antiracist.”
Quite right lib2016- but poor old Beachy isn’t a patriot, to judge from his contributions- he’s a died-in-the-wool anti-Unionist anti-Brit, and that is actually all his Irish patriotism consists of. If he had no one to MOPE against, he couldn’t summon up a smidgeon of patriotism or national pride.Thankfully most Irish people, north and south, are free of these shackles, but TBT is too scared to let them go. The closer he’s challenged, the more the insecurity spews out.
Sorry to bring this back up again but I have been in absentia for a few days and only just seen this.
Forgive me for asking, but since St Patrick was neither crucified nor a crusader, why does he ‘have’ a cross?
Religious crusade perhaps? I’m not sure on this one, having a guess.
Being intimidated by celtic tops might even be understandable, if prejudiced. But fearing a piece of fabric, in a city centre? Don’t buy it.
Thanks for the insinuation that I hold prejudice. I don’t want to go into personal details on a public forum, but you really couldn’t be further from the truth.
In all honesty a crowd of people in celtic hoops does make me nervous, in the same way any large gathering of spides in football tops would make me nervous.