A peaceful parade and a peaceful protest
I have just returned from the annual Whiterock parade. Both the parade and protest went off without a hitch (as far as I could see). I must admit that today made me genuinely hopeful. I don’t care about “They only did it because….” or “But what about…” . Both sides delivered. After just missing total success at the Tour of the North and a total success at the Whiterock two good precedents have been set. I can remember debating on here with many who said that the democratic standard of a peaceful parade with opponents protesting peacefully was something that would be very difficult/impossible to achieve. Today it was achieved and in an area hard hit by the troubles.
PS I am promised some video footage in the next couple of days.
50+
I think it was YOU who suggested that the NI protestants didn’t treat the NI catholics well. I would agree with that assessment.
Whos brian robinson
For years we’ve had empty boasts of the 80,000 strong Orange Order and it’s ‘worldwide’ contacts. Now it is accepted that the numbers are down to 30,000 and dropping. Supported by ‘chavs’ in Belfast and old men outside it they have been forced to start talking in a last attempt to try and gain a little credibility.
The republican movement came out in strength to protect them, and rightly so.
The unionist majority was down to 69,000 and falling at the last elections. These people may still be as vicous, ignorant and prejudiced as ever they were but they are no longer a threat.
Worse – they know that the threat to them now comes from ‘pervidious Albion’, not from their fellow Irishmen.
Lib.
Speaking as a unionist, the threat comes from the Nationalist Front and their continued attempts to demonise the unionist people.
When even a peaceful parade evokes such a hateful reaction as witnessed here, we know what’s what.
The republican movement protected your hateful parade in spite of it’s connections with loyalist paramilitaries and that’s your reaction. Fair enough – that tells a story in itself.
what exactly do you mean by the republican movement mo cara, and who were they protecting the orange men from.are you saying that the reps are now prepared to take physical action against nationalist,s who protest against orange marches in nationalist areas, mmm interesting dont you think ,another arm to the states forces,
Its always nice to see generous nationalists if this is the best they can come up with god help us,btw 50%+ i wold read the census closely if i were you or did the vile unionists prevent you from learning in school?
In the 2001 census the number who said they were catholic was 680,000, protestant 770,000. 230,000 did not state their religion. After NISRA worked on the figures using largely unidentified methods to ascertain the background (protestant/catholic) of as many of the non-respondents as they could, they arrived at the figure of 740,000 catholics and 895,000 protestants in northern ireland, with a further 45,000 remaining unspecified.
That is to say that out of the 230,000 non-respondents, NISRA suggested that 60,000 were catholic and 125,000 were protestant. 45,000 they could not specify.
Are they saying that protestants are twice as likely to call themselves atheists as catholics? What exactly were the methods used to arrive at these figures? I have heard something about postcodes but little else and the census report itself provides little by way of enlightenment.
James;
‘wold’….. I assume you mean WOULD.
Never comment on anothers education until you learn how to spell, it not only means you are a protestant bigot but a stupid one also.
Brian Robinson was a loyalist killer who is now a folk hero with the OO in the Shankill. They march behind a banner dedicated to him as part of their annual ‘religious festival’.
Probably they will soon dedicate a banner to the killer of Constable Arbuckle.
Yes Harry i would say that when i filled the form in i stated i was a athesist,i have no religious beliefs whatsoever,however i have a unionist outlook many people of a unionist persuasion have been deeply embarassed by our so called religious leaders to have any faith in them or their views.
Simple typing mistake my old fruit still i dont have to resort to swear words to defend my case,unlike you my poor derprived fellow ulsterman.
Thought this was interesting from today’s Sunday Life regarding the potential for internal paramilitary violence over the 12th period.
“It could kick off at Eleventh night bonfires and spill over into the next day’s parades.
While each faction insists they don’t plan any incursions into the other’s territory, the Eleventh night brings revellers from different parts of the city into other areas to meet up with friends.
Most years see at least one serious incident involving rival paramilitary groups or figures from different elements of the same organisation.
While, in Belfast, supporters of rival UDA brigades are separated behind district lodges from across the city, the danger of confrontation arises when the demonstration reaches its destination at Barnett’s Demesne and Orangemen and bandsmen have three hours to kill before the return leg.
Said one senior loyalist source: “That’s the danger time – it mightn’t take too much for some words from someone in south Belfast or north Belfast to spark a fight, to say the least.
“Everyone in the organisation knows what bands are UDA-associated from each area and, unless there is a clear commitment from all to ensure that nothing happens at the Belfast field, then there could be chaos.”
The breakdown of the 230,000 non-respondents using the proportions of those who actually stated their religion would be 95,000 catholic and 122,000 protestant, with 33,000 unspecified. So we seem to be missing 35,000 catholics, with the numbers of protestants in line with the expectation by proportion. Perhaps there are cogent reasons for this but it does seem somewhat unsurprising that a report by the british government into such a sensitive issue ends up underreporting the number of catholics.
That Sunday Life report sounds like a psy-ops piece.
James
‘athesist’… I assume you mean atheist. This spelling lesson is getting boring. I know only 5 pupils on the Shankill passed their 11+ this year but I assume that you are a grown man and have access to some form of literature other than comics.
In relation to ‘defending your case’ why not present a case for defending your OO friends marching behind the banners dedicated to murderers of innocent catholics?
I suspect the reason you don’t is that you and the vast majority of your OO friends supported the campaign of murder against your catholic neighbours.
Without getting as emotive as 50%+ on this occasion, I’d just like to point out that a reasonable consideration of the statistics from NISRA would give an absolute majority to unionism of around 135,000. On this figure the ‘right’ to corral almost half the population rests, on this figure the constitutional future of 6 million people rests.
Dear me. What a rubbish discussion.
50%.
Gie youself a break, I forsee some spelling mistakes in the future.
50% its really nice of you to have a pop at the educational problems on the shankill it must make you feel big.I never supported anybody being killed in northern ireland i deeply resent that comment and i think you should withdraw that comment,afterall when people begin to be taken in by idiots mass murder becomes possible.A quick question for you does everybody who votes for sf believe in violence against their unionist neighbours,i dont think so why should supporting the orange order mean you support murder of our nationalist neighbours.
“Loyalists delivered absolutely nothing.
Posted by Pat Mc Larnon on Jun 24, 2006 @ 07:50 PM”
…while republicanism delivered one of the funniest exposes of their hypocrisy ever. Come on Pat, don’t tell me even you blushed a little at the sight of Eddie Copland -who m’learned friends will recall has been named as a leading provisional in the area in the past- standing with a poster saying “Violence pays”-didn’t cause you the teensiest embarassment?
Harry
“What exactly were the methods used to arrive at these figures?”
In the census they asked what religion people were and they asked people about what background they were from. The first set of figures you mention are based on the first question the second set of figures are based on the second question
dear darth of course violence pays I dont konw about the bould Eddie or Spike or the boyos but it sure paid stakeknife ,and I am sure the same applies equally on the loyalist side also
TAFKABO
You mention nationalist “hateful reaction” to a peaceful parade. If the OO is dedicated to religious liberty for all, why are they followed by bands openly supporting the UDA/UVF/LVF? In the case of the Shankill Road lodges, there are at least 2 banners dedicated to Brian Robinson – for anyone who doesn’t know – this “hero” shot dead an innocent Catholic man coming out of a bookmakers shop. Unfortunately for our “hero” – as he made his cowardly way back to the Shankill – he ran into someone who could fight back (an army patrol) who quite rightly shot him.
I would imagine that if someone paraded up the Shankill with a banner dedicated to the IRA Shankill bomber – it would (quite properly) provoke a “hateful” reaction.
The same as if a National Front parade went through Brixton.
If the OO genuinely paraded only for civil and religious liberty, I would have no issue with that. However, anyone who has lived in NI and seen these OO parades is aware that very few (if any!) of them do not have “loyalist” terror group banners, bands etc attached to them.
A few years ago – a “compromise” was reached on the Ormeau road to have an OO parade. Unfortunately – rather than practicing “religious and civil liberty” – the band parade stopped outside a bookmakers shop where “loyalist” terrorists had murdered 5 Catholics – the parade had NEVER!! stopped at that point before. They stopped for approx 5 minutes – the band played as loudly as they could and many of the OO supporters raised 5 digits to the nationalist residents (clearly representing the 5 innocent victims) – so much for respecting the rights of others!
You paint a picture of supposedly harmless and inoffensive parades inspiring a “hateful reaction” from Catholics. The reality is the Catholics simply don’t like people parading past their houses who celebrate loyalist terrorist atrocities and the scum who carried them out.
In the past, Catholics simply had no choice and were denied their democratic rights. Now, times have changed and they are asserting their rights not to have an avowed anti-Catholic organisation parading through a Catholic neighbourhood.
“Brian Robinson – for anyone who doesn’t know – this “hero” shot dead an innocent Catholic man coming out of a bookmakers shop. Unfortunately for our “hero” – as he made his cowardly way back to the Shankill – he ran into someone who could fight back (an army patrol) who quite rightly shot him. ”
Well done to the army.
I think the larger point is that the whole concept of dressing up in kilts, massing the bands and marching around to commemorate ancient victories is bloody absurd, provocative and entirely unhelpful when it comes to community relations that even pretend to approximate to civilized behaviour.
How is N.Ireland supposed to move forward toward a new societal model of integration, when you have people who insist on digging up the past and parading it in the faces of their neighbors.
Since people of both stripes in N.Ireland obviously feel the need to march (perhaps it’s genetic), why not ban explicitly secetarian marches and replace them with festivals that have themes that are about unity and dare I say it … a good time FOR ALL. I’m sure Bono and the boys would be delighted to lend their talents to such an event free of charge.
I come from belfast originally. I’m a prod and my grandfather was an orangeman, so I know all about it. People like Ted who go on about the legitimacy of the Orange Order are missing the point. I’m sure there are people in Tennessee who would argue the legitmacy of the KKK – but none of these positions addresses the core issue – namely that marching and parading by people who are intent on exhibiting triumphalist sentiments deepens the divide between communities and poisons the atmosphere.
Both the Orange Order and Hibernians need to be banned from marching in built up urban areas. If they must parade around – let them hire some fields from a farmer in Donegal and parade around in circles on private property. They could even have King Billy doing a “hi ho Silver” routine on the Giant’s Causeway. But spare us the sight of these bigots trying to force their way onto streets in order to antagonize their otherwise peaceful neighbors.
Ithink P J has got it about right on thr orange order, we should remember why this orginisation was set upand by whom, the brits set this orginasition up as a milita to supress their catholic neighbours, and when the order became an embarassment to the English goverment they outlawed the order, there can be no rational argument for parades whose sole purpose is to intimadate and frighten, the order used to march up finaghy road in days gone by and they still have an Andersonstown banner I dont see the boyos trying to march through A/town, is it because A/town is just a little bit to much to handle,
Fair Deal:
“I must admit that today made me genuinely hopeful. I don’t care about “They only did it because….” or “But what about…” . Both sides delivered. After just missing total success at the Tour of the North and a total success at the Whiterock two good precedents have been set.”
Yeah, but would there have been the same peaceful outcome if the Whiterock parade had been re-routed? Going by last year’s disgraceful scenes, I somehow doubt it.
A question for anyone who might know the answer:
Did the Parades Commission determination include a bar on the carrying of ‘ceremonial’ swords by the Orangemen? Given that said implements were used to attack the security forces last year, they should have been barred along with UVF banners, etc.
I read in todays newsletter that they want to march in full next year.
Dream on bhoys…………..LOL
So Aidan, was your granfather a bigot then?….
Martin,
your enthusiasm leads you to avoid the unpleasant business of havi ng to read history. The Brits didn’t set up the Orange institution- they banned in on more than one occasion, and many other organisations too when they perceived them to be a radical threat to the establishment-and of course the purpose of parades is not to frighten or intimidate, otherwise I imagine there would have been a long history of orange parades in A ndersonstown, Forkhill etc. Parading has a long his tory in Ireland, from religious processions to those by-for example – the masons, who were hardly a gang of deadly cutthroats (they were act ually mostly RCin the 18th century anyway). The order is simply doing what most fraternal societies did for centuries, but people like you are so mad keen to demonise that you can’t admit that.
I might indeed be mad darth mo cara, but with due respect, can you explain why it is so important for the orange order to parade where they are not wanted,after all who cares when and how long they march around their own areas,except that of course offends noone and that just would,nt do would it,
“The order is simply doing what most fraternal societies did for centuries, but people like you are so mad keen to demonise that you can’t admit that.”
What like marching in celebration of a sectarian killer like Brian Robinson, having lodges who commemorate mass murderers like the Shankill butchers (Bobby’Basher’Bates etc..) , have members like convicted Shankill butcher eddie McILwaine within your ranks & organise parades which are awash with paramilitary flags and terrorist bands.
True, the masons, were hardly a gang of deadly cutthroats unlike those commemorated and who are members of the present orange institution.
well chalk, I’ve repeatedly asked this question elsewhere, but maybe you’ll be the first to answer it- do you support the banning of ex-paramilitaries from all organisations, and bodies. Cos if the Orange has a few ex- or current paramilitaries, that’s a drop in the ocean compared to Sinn fein. And Brendan Mckenna obviously can’t be in a resident group. Go on- be consistent, and tell me they should all be kicked out of everything, put in a big compound (lets’ call it–I dunno..Long kesh) and forgotten about. Then I’ll take all the deserved criticism for being out of step with society in general.
If there is a parade to commemorate Robinson,there shouldn’t be, but in any event that’s one in 3000 or 0.00033%. You’ll obviously want all the Hunger strike commemorations to stop because they are 100% commemorating paramilitaries I suppose.
Martin- you might not be mad, but you are deliberately obtuse. If I parade up Balmoral Avenue on the 12th, those awfully nice middle class people not on holiday might’nt want me on “their” road but they understand the concept of tolerance. I had a friend who was a virtual prisoner in his flat last week when the Fat Boy Slim concert took place in Portrush. Now he’s pretty pissed off, but he’s not going to form a residents’ group to sit down in the East Strand car park next year, nor is he arguing that concerts should be banned.
You know, beyond any doubt, that orange parades are local and traditional, organised by local people in their areas. True, the demographics of many areas have changed, but should that mean their right to do as they’ve always done is removed? And if so when? Does the community have to be 50%+1 RC? or 66.66%? What’s the population of Springfield Road? I’ll guess 1500, and there weren’t 150 protesters on Saturday-some not from the road. So 10% maximum object to the extent of getting up off their arses. And what is the defined area of a community BTW? One road? a DEA? a Parliamentary constituency?
Fair_deal: In the census they asked what religion people were and they asked people about what background they were from. The first set of figures you mention are based on the first question the second set of figures are based on the second question.
What was the format of this second question? Was it yes/no or did it ask for a more discursive answer? Where are the statistics on the answers to this second question? If you read the report you’ll find that no stats are given about this second question and its alleged answers, we are simply told its results were ‘added up’ with the first question to arrive at the unexpectedly low numbers of catholics reported.
As I pointed out, if we use the proportions of those who actually stated their religion to calculate the likely proportions of protestant/catholic among the non-respondents, we actually arrive at a figure that is the same as the one given for the numbers of from a protestant background. Yet mysteriously we have a figure for catholics that is 35,000 less than expected.
No statistics for the second question are available and the manner in which they arrived at these figures is not transparent. Given how sensitive an issue this is, given that how exactly they arrived at these figures is glossed over in the census report, given how a statistical analysis of the available figures according to known proportions yields an unexpected and statistically unexplained absence of 35,000 catholics, then I would say a highly suspect fudge would appear to be going on that needs to be explained.
There is a net increase in the population over a ten year period of about 50,000. Given an alleged brain-drain amongst protestantism (2/3 of those who go to university in britain don’t come back), given that birth rates amongst catholics are still higher than among protestants, given that more protestants are older and therefore the rate of loss to protestantism is higher through death than for catholics and given the fairly slim majority of around 135,000 – then the prospects for unionism vis-a-vis a united ireland over the next 15 years don’t look too good.
The distribution of the vote between nationalists and unionists is even closer one presumes, perhaps just some tens of thousands in the difference by the time of the next census in 2011.
So those who talk about a united ireland as being some sort of distant, fairyland ‘pipe-dream’ are unaware of the real facts and are deluding themselves. A united ireland is every bit a real possibility on ‘democratic’ terms by 2016.
What counts is the number of possible nationalist votes over the next decade or to put it another way the number of people from a Catholic background already at school whether that school is church-run or state-run. Yet this was precisely the number which was fudged.
What community could possibly be being reassured while their position is being destroyed?
darth rumsfeld,
If there is a parade to commemorate Robinson,there shouldn’t be, but in any event that’s one in 3000 or 0.00033%
Well, you’ve made me laugh anyway! You’re not exactly a rocket scientist, are you? Or if you are, god help NASA!
One in 3000 is 0.033%
If the OO would agree to limiting contentious parades to 0.00033%, then we’d be well on the way to a solution of the world’d problems. [Hint: based on a total of 3000, it would mean only 1 thousandth of a parade, or about 2 metres of contention! From the Lodge door to the edge of the pavement ... we could all live with that.]
The orange order have continually refused to address the problem of the large number of paramilitary bands who take part in, and who are hired to lead lodges during orange marches.
Why are lodges paying bands who are connected to illegal organisations and why are the orange order so willing to use bands who are connected and support paramilitary organisations?.
The point, which oo apologists deliberatly ignore, is that people who profess to march as part of a ‘religious festival’ do so behind UFF colour parties and banners dedicated to the killers of innocent catholics. To compound the hyprocacy they demand the ‘cultural right’ to parade through catholic areas.
There is also an interesting observation to be made about the tone and content of the posts in Slugger.
It’s that when protestants are unable to logically defend an oo ‘cultural practice’ such as marching behind oo banners dedicated to loyalist killers they attack the educational standards of the catholic posters/protestors.
I think it is a subliminal belief that taigs are sub-human – it therefore makes it easier to accept that they can be treated as an inferior race.
But there are a lot of uppity taigs about these days – SO GET USE TO IT!
But there are a lot of uppity taigs about these days – SO GET USE TO IT!
Sorry, I can’t but help feel superior to you, can you guess why?
“The point, which many oo apologists deliberately ignore, is that people who profess to march as part of a ‘religioud festival’ do so behind UFF colour parties and banners dedicated to killers of innocent catholics. To compound the hyprocacy they demand the ‘cultural right’ to parade through catholic areas”
Any comment from the master race?
TAFKABO
Isn’t it great that you’ve someone to feel superior to – you’re easily pleased.
That’s all you oo apologists need – a march, abuse a few taigs, a chinese take-away and you’re culturally satisfied for another year.
Just think in the good old days you could have become a member of the B Specials.
50+
You’re exactly right. Neither TAFKABO (nor any of the other OO apologists) have answered the 2 pertinent questions. They’re obviously either unable or unwilling to do so.
Q1. Why is the OO obsessed with forcing a very small percentage of their marches through predominantly Catholic areas rather than concentrate on organising and enjoying the vast majority of their parades in predominantly loyalist areas?
A1. The whole “raison d’etre” of the OO is anti-Catholicism. The “tradition” as they call it is that, on the 12th, they can march where they pleased as “We are the people”. That is why the routes of so many OO marches have “traditionally” passed through or near Catholic areas. It was to show the Catholics that they were second class citizens and had to lie down and let the representatives of the supposed “Protestant Ascendancy” march through their areas in an offensive manner.
Q2. If the OO is truly dedicated to “religious and civil liberty for all”, why does it have many members who are convicted “loyalist” terrorists and associations with “loyalist” paramilitary organisations?
A2. The “religious and civil liberty” is for Protestants and NOT for all. The whole thing is really a demonstration of supposed “Orange/Protestant Supremacy”.
When questioned about the terrorists in its ranks – the OO spokesmen (btw – can’t they get someone who would be better than the pathetic Saulters or the idiotic Baillie?) simply claim that it’s an individual lodge matter. No action is taken and none of these people are expelled.
They have many banners celebrating “loyalist” terrorists and continually hire bands connected with the UVF/UDA/LVF.
When they don’t get their own way, their drunken supporters (in their Rangers or NI Shirts) attack the police and property (preferably Catholic owned but anything will do really).
This is hardly in keeping with its supposed “principles”.
Frankly, I don’t care if they parade twice a day every day in the areas where they are welcome. The OO needs to wake up and realise that times have changed and that Catholics will no longer just lie down and grovel as our “Orange masters” pass by.
Until they do this, they’ll just be banging their heads against a brick wall as illustrated by the pathetic charade played out regularly at Drumcree.