Defining “Victory”
Nationalists have reacted angrily to the Parades Commission decision on the Whiterock. Sean “Spike” Murray of the Springfield Residents Group said the decision was “immoral” outlined what the residents viewed as victories and compromises:
“There is the West Circular route which we would see as a victory for the nationalists over the unionists; Workman gates which we would see as a victory for unionists over the nationalists. Now our position is and has been for the past six years that the parade should be put through the Mackies (site). We would see it as a win/win situation for both communities.”This position contains some revisionism as the parade route has changed before, moving further up the Springfield Road, so do these past nationalist “victories” not make Workman Avenue a “compromise”? The Parade Commission determination has merged two of the options with the vast bulk of the parade (93%) following the nationalist perceived “compromise”, is 93% not enough?
In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?
The DUP meanwhile have embraced the terminology of sharing. The Orange Order has not yet given any formal response.
You people call yourselves grown men? You’re nutters. I have lived in several countries where this sort of thing would under no circumstances be tolerated.
The person who is above such pettiness is the true victor.
The question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?
IMO it will be peaceful, despite the anger, the green shirts will be out in force, they can’t go letting anger from residents upset their plans for stormont.
As much as I dislike this, it *IS* a rational approach, albeit along the lines of Solomon offering to split the baby. The local OO folks can march the local street and those who aren’t stakeholders in the community get to go the long way around. If nobody is particularly happy, then it might just be a just solution.
That said, anyone care to wager on how badly this “split decision” works in reality land? Maybe a pool on how many days of rioting to follow and who receives the lion’s share of the blame? Tie-breaker being the number of sectarian bands prevented from marching due to their violation of the terms of the parade?
DC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london?
No.
Walk somewhere else, stick to your own turf.
The last march in or near ardoyne went thru because it was marshalled heavily, and agreement reached between residents groups and OOs, but the people who lived there DID NOT WANT IT.
What is the issue here. The issue is stick to your own turf. Keep your feet on yer own street.
And when we are forced out of our own streets? It is naive to assume that the OO alters its routes every once on a while to ensure the disruption of majority Catholic areas.
In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly.
It’s all very simple, as Councillor Balls explains. “Victory is when we force themmuns to accept what themmuns think we would never accept in the name of a weak and deceitful so-called compromise, except that what themmuns think we would never accept is actually what we want them to believe we would never accept although we would secretly be delighted, so they would accept it rather than be seen to be accepting what we want them to think we would want to be seen to accept but would secretly loathe. Real statesmanship, unlike the tangled web of deceit that Mr. Blair and Mr. Ahern spin, consists in never permitting themmuns to force you to be seen to disclose your actual interests.”
well you know proud a lot of people have had to accept a lot of changes, and change is difficult and hard, but all of our peoples had to do it.
Up date your traditions to take in the demographic shift and stick to your own turf, that way we can have summers in peace. This decision is a reward for bad behaviour, £3million pounds of bad behaviour. Hugh Orde last year condemned the OOs by saying he saw them as we all did attacking their own police. This is a disgraceful decision. Even Diane Dodds isn’t satisfied with it.
This part of the springfield road is a nationalist area, so don’t walk where yer not wanted, and same applies for the tour of the north.
This decision is not good, since the commission now is stuffed its self full of orange men. Garvaghy road is a sure bet, there’ll be orange feet on that street this summer. Be very surprised if there is not.
Brenda: “DC when was the last time you were on springfield road. As spike murray said on radio this morning, it is now 95% catholic nationalist. And they do not want this march. Would the londoners allow a white supremacist march from BNP thru a black borough of london? ”
I did say I disliked it, didn’t I, Brenda? However, the price one pays for living in a Western democracy is that one occasionally must tolerate speech that one disagrees with. I am suprised that march has been allowed, given that which has gone on before. But is *HAS* been allowed. I would support any and all appropriate challenges. All I have said is that the decision was akin to Solomon’s offer to split the baby between the two mothers. No, there is the small problem that neither of the two “mothers” in this scenario really have the best interests at heart
As for a BNP march through a black borough in London, its not material to this discussion. We are not talking about London. That the British can be hypocritical should come as no shock. Likewise, I would like to think that the Irish can handle such matters as “Freedom of Speech.”
Ultimately, these conversations should not be over “victory,” as that makes the parade (or lack thereof) a triumph, which will only continue the problems. A reasonable accomodation, accompanied by a civil response or perhaps even non-violent civil disobedience, would be more productive.
*MY* main objection is that this scenario has the appearance of a small reward for the OO for last year’s violence, thus my cynical post. I worry that the entirely wrong lesson is being taught and that matters will get worse instead of better.
The question is will it be peaceful, or will there be any bother?
I reckon there will be plenty of disturbances over this one, it’s worth bearing in mind that
a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before and
b) Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none, and
c) Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.
(IMHO)
Proud: “In many cases the demographic shift has altered the makeup of the parade area to an extent where protestants are now marginalised where once they were in the majority. Don’t underestimate the fear this causes among the protestant community and therefore the subsequent feeling that there is a need to reassert themselves accordingly. ”
Any animal, be it reptile, mammal, social or political, that is incapable of adapting to its changing environment will eventually die. Do you really want this to come down to Darwin days?
mmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.
If there is trouble it is the fault of the OO. make no bones about it. If you force yourselves on your neighbours and they do not want triumphalist orange marches outside their homes, would you expect a cup of tea and a card to say call again next year.
The OOs should be made to pay for all disturbances that comes from these sectarian marches.
Don’t go where you’re not wanted, even if the green shirts say you can. It doesn’t make for good relations.
keep yer feet on yer own street.
Alex clearly hit the nail on the head there. the problem and may I suggest the solution lyies with themmuns, if only we could convince themmuns of the benefits of emigrarting to outer mongolia,and take blair bush adams and all the wee orange bigots with them,
‘a) SF are probably now less popular in that particular part of town than ever before’
That is not borne out by the recent Local Government elections, that part of West Belfast comes under the Lower Falls ward. That was the only ward in that election that returned a full house of candidates for one party, 5 SF councillors.
‘Not everyone in that part of town shares allegiance with SF or the RA, in fact a large number of people are in rival organisations, and an even larger number again are in none,’
A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.
‘Don’t take this the wrong way, but there are some nutters up in the West. I’m a Ballymena catholic, now living up there, and I reckon there are a lot of people who do not give a f%$# about SF or their aspirations, and wouldn’t think twice about starting murder.’
I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.
Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.
‘mmc the green shirts will be out in force, of that I am confident. But they took a roasting in particular gerry kelly, when they marshalled thru the orange parade at the ardoyne shops.’
As someone who was there in the capacity of a steward that is a lie. For your benefit I will repeat what i said to the Ballymena cowboy,
‘I have no doubt that there is an element wanting to ‘start murder’, they shift their anti social behaviour from their neigbours front doors to the nearerst point of conflict, once it starts. Don’t try and dress that behaviour up as anything other than a wish to start trouble, it has nothing to do with parades and the O.O. 95% of young people in areas like Ardoyne heed the advice given to them and stay well clear of these situations.’
Pat,
The last elections do paint a different picture, and in my saying that they are less popular in that particular part of town than ever before, I’m reflecting the opinion of many people who I have spoken to who are fed up with anti-social behaviour and the lack of policing of any kind, and who believe that SF are sellouts. This is however not substantiated by a source, it’s only what I’ve heard from ordinary people.
A large number? don’t make me laugh. What there are belonging to these organisations you wouldn’t send to the shop for a loaf.
As I am assuming is that. Between the IRPS the Continuities and any other organisations I would imagine they can get you as many loaves as you could wish for. I am not in possession of membership numbers, and I’m assuming neither do you?
Unfortunately when you mentioned being from Ballymena you kind of gave the game away.
Can you explain that comment?
A lie pat? Well then radio ulster must be very good at dessemminating lies, because they reported it. they interviewed a local business woman who did not want to be identified and also went into the local bookies and interviewed people there on the day the statement about the agreement was issued.
Just because you are a green shirt and fully paid up member of the provo police does not give you the rights to all local feelings.
Maybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts, but told them to radio ulster news.
I invite you to contact them and take up the matter with them, if you are so sure.
nmc,
as stated the support for SF is easily quantifiable, unfortunately the people who you talk to are not.
You stated earlier that their were large number in other organisations, later you stated you are not in possession of the numbers in these rival organisations , which is it?
I wouldn’t send them to the shop for a loaf simply because they would probably be arrested.
Brenda,
Radio Ulster stated that ‘Gerry Kelly in particular took a roasting’ can you provide a link to that. Well if an unidentified businesswoman and the punters of a bookies are your sole areas of proof then enough said.
The people of the area were widley consulted on the march. The people who actually live on the Crumlin Rd, Mountainview and the Dales supported the agreement. As were the people of Cranbrook, Farringdon and Velsheda, the streets that run behind Ardoyne Rd. Father Troy went into the schools to deliver the message to the young people and the staff and members of the various youth clubs and GAA were also consulted.
Teachers from the local schools and youth workers and staff from the GAA were also present at Ardoyne shops on Friday night.
But all this consultation and willingness to try and have a peaceful outcome really does pale into insignifance when faced with the worldly wisdom and rationale of a punter whose last £5 went on the second favourite at Leopardstown.
Your comments about provo police etc really are quite pathetic.
Maybe the good people of ardoyne were afraid to voice their true opinions to the green shirts..
Brenda, this is just the case! The hot-heads wouldn’t look favourably on those who see things differently.
Pat, you are right. Many of us, (IMO the majpority) are just busy getting on with life and couldn’t give a rats ass about the political success of the Green Shirts! You can bury your head and think it ain’t so but, that’s just the way it is!
Pat you are dilebrately putting together two of my posts in order to cause confusion. that is the sign of a man who has no argument.
there was plenty of comment about gerry kelly marshalling the orange men thru ardoyne. Everyone remembers it, we all saw it, there is no doubt it was contentious not only in one area but a lot of areas.
You are deliberately trying to give the impression that there was universal agreement on the agreement, when clearly there was not. As I said, this was radio ulster news interviewing, and the local business woman and the people in the bookies are members of the area, just as the teachers in the schools WORK there. It was quite clear from the interview broadcast that there was NO UNIVERSAL agreement.
On the issue of springfield road, which is what this thread is about, there does seem to be universal agreement that the march is NOT wanted. This has also been reported on radio ulster news.
Why is one broadcast true and the other not. Because you say so? Why are the punters in the bookies who pay their £5 bets members of the community when they are murdered on the Ormeau road or bottom of the whiterock road, but not when they are being interviewed to say they do not want an orange march.
Is the desire for stormont that strong?
Pat Mc Larnon
It is your arrogant, sycophantic support for the PROVOS which is truly pathetic
It is obsessive opinion like this that is turning people away from SF. Catch a grip!
Much as the spat about who has the greater insight is enterntaining I would appreciate it if you could focus more on topic. I’d especially be interested in your comments about
“In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?”
The Metropolitan Police, Brenda, would no longer countenance a white supremacist march through London today largely because I, along with many others, stood up in violent confrontation with the National Front and the Met when they tried to force their march, that was sanctioned, through Brixton in the 70′s.
A close friend and comrade of mine, confronting the Nazis, had his picture large on the front cover of The Sun with a huge underlying strap “THE FACE OF HATE!!”. With good old London directness and wit, when his friends and family expressed horror at this depiction, he responded, “I don’t mind. It’s true. I do hate those effin’ Nazi bastards and I’ll keep hating ‘em and keep kicking ‘em while there’s breath in me body”.
Hi Brenda,
“Don’t go where you’re not wanted”
Is that not a bit of a dangerous precedent to set? One only has to think back to Ahoghill last summer to realise that some of the headcases from the opposite side of the fence to you might be listening…
don’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides.
Fair_Deal: (quoting) “In broader terms on the use of rhetoric is defining particular outcomes as victory and implicitly a defeat for someone else wise? The selling of the last Agreement fell apart as each side claimed victory and as another deal edges closer is there a need to examine what language can be used to sell it without a process of upmanship?” ”
Ah, but this year, in Whiterock, upmanship should not have been a question, FD. Last year’s debacle *SHOULD* have put paid to this year’s parade — why should they be allowed to march when, last year, they demonstrated they could not be counted upon to control their marchers?
On a broader note, the electorate is polarized, so we’re going to be burdened by the score-keepers for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, with the UUP climbing into bed with the thugocrats, the number of potentially less polarized players is diminishing. The credibility of the UUP will be further diminished if the UVF/LVF feud heats up, as has been predicted in some quarters.
Its a crooked game at the moment, but its the only game in town.
Hi Brenda,
“don’t go where you’re not wanted IMO applies to all sides”
And that’s exactly why it’s so dangerous!
For example, should Catholics not have been allowed to build Churches, schools or houses in what were perceived Prod areas?
Hi Dread,
“Ah, but this year, in Whiterock, upmanship should not have been a question, FD. Last year’s debacle *SHOULD* have put paid to this year’s parade—why should they be allowed to march when, last year, they demonstrated they could not be counted upon to control their marchers”
I agree with you. However, the restrictions on the march last year were seen as a reward for the violent protest at the return of the 12th parade past the Ardoyne shops. So, it should never have been restricted in the first place. Essentially, the message was given out that violence pays. We’ll be reaping the reward of that for years to come…
‘Pat you are dilebrately putting together two of my posts in order to cause confusion. that is the sign of a man who has no argument.’
Which two ,you are lying again. You stated Gerry Kelly got a ‘roasting’. I was there on Friday night, you were not at the O.O. parade, nothing like that happened. If you are talking about 2 years ago on the Ardoyne Rd then clearly state which parade you are talking about. I don’t think you know yourself.
I am not stating, nor have I ever, that there was universal agreement on this parade, to claim that I did is yet another lie. I spoke of widespread consultation during which those in attendance agreed that the course taken on Friday night was the right one.
Your trailing up of the dead at Whiterock and Ormeau to strengthen your argument is quite sad.
Poddy Pie,
does your mother know you have the computer on, also stay away from the fire.
FD,
the process of oneupmanship was taken to extremes by the political and paramiltary wings of unioinism when they brought violence, guns and bombs onto the streets of Belfast last year. What where they after if not victory, they were prepared to kill for it.
Congal, when poleglass estate on the edge of west belfast was first opened up, the council in lisburn refused to empty bins etc, its a wonder they were given permission at all to build catholic homes, or schools. these are necessary things, marching past peoples front doors with flags from organisations that murder members of their community is not necessary in any society in this day and age.
what is dangerous is the out dated notion that these parades should be allowed to march past ppls front doors who do not want them. It is this that constitutes a danger as was seen last year. At great cost to the tax payer.
Its time for a new perspective. These triumphalist marches cannot go where they like without objection, and changes to their routes being made in the interests of peace. OOs should set an example, violence should not pay.
The DUP meanwhile have embraced the terminology of sharing.
FD
Care to provide examples of this? Such terminology was missing in the run up to last year’s Springfield parade, when Ian Paisley all but promised the violence which followed that parade.
The facts of the Springfield Road parade are simple: the West Belfast peace-wall, separating the loyalist and nationalist districts in that part of the city, have to be opened to facilitate a loyalist parade through the nationalist side of the fence.
Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed? Firstly, no Parades Commission- never mind one packed with Orange Order appointees- would support it; Secondly, violence would be unleashed on the marchers, supporters, local residents and anyone else whom the loyalists could associate with such a provocative procession- and, furthermore, the general consensus in the media/ political circles would be that they brought it on themselves.
So what exactly is it in the Orange Order/ Loyalist/ Unionist psyche that insists on arranging and persisting with such provocative and triumphalist gestures?
Perhaps it’s to do with a desire to return to the days when the collective morale of the nationalist community could be consistently undermined by assertions of unionist supremacism within the state?
‘I am not stating nor have I ever that there was universal agreement on this parade’
You certainly tried to give the impression there was. You tried to take me to task for saying there wasn’t universal agreement on it. Which is it I don’t think you know yourself.
As for trailing up the dead, can you answer the question put, why do you disdainfully describe the ppl in the bookies when they say they do not want an orange parade? Surely ppl wo frequent bookies are entitled to an opinion, so why put them down because they are in a bookies, or why put down another poster for being from ballymena. What was it you called him a ballymena cowboy.
As for the Kelly comment, if you weren’t sure which parade I was speaking off all you had to do was ask me to clarify. No you’d rather call ppl liars.
So now you have moved your position and agree, the radio ulster broadcast was not a lie, and there was no universal agreement on this parade.
Make up your mind Pat, you’re all over the place. LOL
CD
“Care to provide examples of this?”
That sentence was referring to a mention of a DUP statement provided near the bottom of the story linked above.
“In a statement, the DUP said the ruling recognised that this section of the Springfield Road should be shared space,”
“The facts of the Springfield Road parade are simple: the West Belfast peace-wall, separating the loyalist and nationalist districts in that part of the city, have to be opened to facilitate a loyalist parade through the nationalist side of the fence.”
It is a fact that at Workman Avenue there is a pedestrian gate that is open everyday. Also at the junction of Workman Avenue/Springfield Road there is a gate not a wall.
“So what exactly is it in the Orange Order/ Loyalist/ Unionist psyche that insists on arranging and persisting with such provocative and triumphalist gestures? ”
Maybe moving away from the stereotype e.g. “provocative and triumphalist gestures” might help you in your search to understand the psyche.
BTW I had hoped to use the local to encourage a broader discussion about language and its use but so far comments have remained on the particular. So I would be interested in hearing your view of language that could be used around future deals.
Hi Brenda,
“build catholic homes, or schools. these are necessary things”
Yes. But, and an important but, they are not necessary in Prod areas. Therefore, should Catholic schools, churches, etc be exclusively built in Catholic areas? Or as you put it…
should “don’t go where you’re not wanted” apply to the building of Catholic schools, churches, etc?
Heya, Congal!
“I agree with you. However, the restrictions on the march last year were seen as a reward for the violent protest at the return of the 12th parade past the Ardoyne shops. So, it should never have been restricted in the first place. Essentially, the message was given out that violence pays. We’ll be reaping the reward of that for years to come… ”
I hate to use this analogy, since it will offend someone, but I fear we’re going to work this like Pavlovian conditioning. The more we “reward” a certain behavior, the more we’re going to see that behavior.
That said, the amount of rioting last year was excessive — sufficiently such that it should have driven a stake through the heart of this year’s parade. But then, that would assume the political and police bureaucrats were worth something.
‘You certainly tried to give the impression there was. You tried to take me to task for saying there wasn’t universal agreement on it. Which is it I don’t think you know yourself.’
I simply related the series of widespread consultations that took place in the area, compared to your boys in the bookies argument. Radio Ulster looking for an angle to criticise against the very widerspread consultation that actually happened
You quite cynically brought up the massacre of people killed at Ormeau and Whiterock, these people are no more than a prop for you in order to win an argument, obviously you hold them in high esteem.
The boy from Ballymena came on trying to bluff about knowing the mood on the ground at Springfield, my factual representation of who people actually vote for in that area and the scale of that vote knocked that particular angle on the head. I have a habit of calling bluffers cowboys.
It was you who linked the roasting of ‘Gerry Kelly’ and then tried to bluff that the interviews at the bookies etc were an indication of widespread dissension on the ground. I quite clearly told you that no such confrontations took place, I was there you were not. It was then you tried to come off with ‘we all remember it’, indicating to me that you were a little bit confused.
Stick to hurling insults like ‘provo police’ when you get into the detail you are just plain dumb.
Fair Deal the language is clear and precise and unambigious.
‘No orange feet on our street.’
‘If you want to walk then do the talk’.
Congal, the issues you speak off, is a side road off topic, i’d prefer to stick to the topic of contentious orange parades. My opinion is these marches are contentious and not necessary, the other issues you raise belong in a different category.
Hi Brenda,
“Congal, the issues you speak off, is a side road off topic, i’d prefer to stick to the topic of contentious orange parades. My opinion is these marches are contentious and not necessary, the other issues you raise belong in a different category.”
But I, and a wager a lot of other unionists/loyalists would disagree. It’s completely related. If Catholics homes had not been built in areas that were originally considered Prod areas there wouldn’t be any contentious marches as the areas would still be Prod.
I don’t agree with that as I think you should be allowed to live were you like.
However, I would like to know if you apply the same logic to both? If not, I’d like to know why…
Brenda
I am sure that is an answer to a question but not the question I asked.
Also on your second quote talks were held last year and this but with no change in the residents position. So I am afraid the second one as well as clear, precise and unambiguous it is bollox.
Nice filibuster, Fair_Deal…
Now, if you could answer the man’s question:
“Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed?”
This is pertinent, insofar as its not really “shared space” unless it works both ways.
Fair_Deal: “Maybe moving away from the stereotype e.g. “provocative and triumphalist gestures” might help you in your search to understand the psyche. ”
The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization, is it not? Are they not still demanding that they and its friends, the Loyalist / sectarian-affiliated bands, march through an overwhelmingly Catholic neighborhood? Given these two facts, how is this *NOT* a “provocative and triumphalist gesture” on the part of the OO and their Loyalist fellow-travellers?
Fair_Deal: “BTW I had hoped to use the local to encourage a broader discussion about language and its use but so far comments have remained on the particular. So I would be interested in hearing your view of language that could be used around future deals.”
Calling a dog’s tail a leg doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t a leg. Not acknowledging last years riots and calling them “poor marshalling” does not make them any less destructive or any less violent, any more than a pile of filth slopping into the street, guarded by drunken thugs is simply “a poorly managed bonfire site.” Your gift for euphemism and verbal slight of hand adds nothing beneficial to the conversation, Fair_Deal — if anything, it detracts from the point you are trying to make.
How do you know I wasn’t there, FYI my fathers family are all from ardoyne, it could be the case I have more relatives there than you. that is a silly argument.
Your post at 3.43 no 18 clearly shows how much you hold ppl in bookies in high regard I merely inquired did your disdainful regard of them also include those that were murdered? Its a simple enough question. Or do you only disdainfully regard ppl in bookies when they disagree with an orange march?
You clearly tried to give the impression that the radio ulster broadcast was of no consequence, and that the report that the ppl in the bookies and an unidentified business woman who gave different views to you where out of whack. Then in your post no 4 at 4.20 you said different. ‘I have never stated there was universal agreement on this parade’. Then why question the radio interviews? If you’d done that much consultation you should have known there wasn’t universal agreement, you clearly tried to give the impression there was.
Congal it is a mute point, if the houses are there.
Hi Brenda,
“Congal it is a mute point, if the houses are there”
I refer you to your earlier line “don’t go where you’re not wanted”.
Is this really what you want?
It is my suggestion that OO marches go only where they are wanted. It is also my suggestion that marches from republicans go only where they are wanted.
that is my suggestion.
DC
“The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization,”
No, it is a Protestant organisation.
“Now, I ask, can anyone imagine the response from unionism/ loyalist paramilitarism were the situation to be reversed?”
There have been a variety of responses over the past few years in terms of the Whiterock parade. Public rejection but compliance with the rulings. One year it was similar to this years parade except all Orangemen were allowed through the gate and the bands went through Mackies. Last year it degenerated into violence.
Also elsewhere different responses have occured to PC decisions so to imply that there is only a singular and always violent response to PC decisions is false.
“Not acknowledging last years riots and calling them “poor marshalling””
I just did a search for the phrases “poor marshalling” and “fair_deal” and no thread of with me saying that comes up. Instead what comes up is two posts by you claiming I said it (your 8.20pm to the Bonfires thread and now this thread). I also don’t recall denying riots occured last year either. I would appreciate it if you could substantiate these.
That is a terrific suggestion, Brenda.
Shall we demand that it be applied to foreign military marching into lands other than their own?
I am sure that Mr Tony Blair would find it a most compelling argument and ardently convince his American friend of its merits – except that the doctrine of moral eqivalency is only intended to flow in one direction.
Now, we can’t go against the (new) laws of nature, can we, Brenda?
rory, I am specifically talking about orange marches.
it is my suggestion that orange marches go only where they are wanted, and the same for the republican side. Not tony blair, or where to build houses, the orange marches, which i think are totally unnecessary, and can be violent at great cost to the tax payer.
‘FYI my fathers family are all from ardoyne, it could be the case I have more relatives there than you. that is a silly argument.’
I simply don’t believe you, I have identified you lying a few times, you could be again. i dare say if we discussing Garvaghy your grannies second cousin passed through there on the bus.
Your cynical use of dead people showed the depraved nature of your argumment and the fact that you really haven’t got a clue of what is going on in the area.
You used this so called interview as evidence that Gerry Kelly ‘was roasted’ and tried to indicate it was indicative of some sort of groundswell against those who help prevent trouble at these parades, trouble for you that it never happened and you were forced to make up a case that you think happened nearly two years ago. Last Friday; two years ago, one can see how you could mix both up.
You were even forced to use the old chestnut of O.O. parades marshalled through nationalist area. Again it never happened, again stop lying.
If you hate SF just say so. If you want to see no stewards trying to prevent trouble at these marches, also just so . Although any deaths occurring at these marches would be another useful prop in one of your circular arguments.
Can anyone point me toward maps of the sectarian divisions in Belfast and the 6 counties in general. I have seen the old CAIN ones and they are not great in detail.
Fair_Deal: ““The OO is still an anti-Catholic organization,”
No, it is a Protestant organisation. ”
Are you telling me they have excised the anti-Catholic language from their by-laws? Or is this just another one of your euphemisms?
Fair_Deal: ” just did a search for the phrases “poor marshalling” and “fair_deal” and no thread of with me saying that comes up. Instead what comes up is two posts by you claiming I said it (your 8.20pm to the Bonfires thread and now this thread). I also don’t recall denying riots occured last year either. I would appreciate it if you could substantiate these. ”
A thousand pardons, Fair_Deal…
The euphemism you used was “parade management,” not “poor marshalling. You have, however, cited poor marshalling as the culprit in parades taht suffered less-than-desirable outcomes. Likewise, you have sought to divorce the riots from the parades that have instigated them — a curious, if not understandable, given your beliefs. Poorly phrased on my part, I confess.
“You are straying into parade management issues which is different from the right to parade in itself. Parade management does need to be improved and various initiatives are underway to do so. ” (the 48th post on the “Sinn_Fein_Reject_Tolerance” thread)