A game of two halves…?
There’s a few things worth returning to in Drew Nelson’s Irish Times interview. This statistic is one of them:
“In the first 20 years of the Troubles four Orange halls were burnt, one of which was in Cavan. But since 1989 there were 240 burnt. It is significant that at around the same time the republican movement started to oppose our parades. There was occasional bother before that but not to this extent.”
So is it a meaningless coincidence? Does it relate to reactionary factors, like changes in the type of Loyalist violence? British countermeasures? Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?
Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?
Mick
The Orange Order and unionist leaders do that quite well on their own, Mick.
It’s hardly a coincidence that attacks on Orange halls would escalate as the Orangemen who frequented them were being widely blamed for organising street protests, road blockages and, by their arrogance and sheer obstinance, cultivating a frightening intimidatory atmosphere across the six counties every summer which led to hundreds of attacks on catholic families and their homes, and ultimately the pyrrhic Drumcree victories and the appalling murder of the Quinn children.
Attacks on Orange halls, like attacks on properties belonging to other political, cultural or religious organisations, are wrong and shouldn’t happen.
But the idea that the poor Orangemen have been the blameless victims of a relentless ceasefre era republican campaign is not only ridiculous, but ignores any factual evidence about the relationship between the loyal Orders and the nationalist community.
That may be fair enough Chris so far as it goes. But why the sharp difference between the two periods? What are the underlying drivers for that change? I mean that’s just four attacks in twenty years. Why the upsurge?
It has since occured to me that there may be a demographic answer, perhaps in regard to shifting territories. But without more comprehensive information, I guess we are left with intelligent guesswork.
I can say that the country is much more obsessed with territory than it was in 1987. I think the figures you have quoted are true, and I doubt that they give the full picture. I’m sure demographics is the bottom line here. Across Northern Ireland and in Belfast, the balance of population is changing. Protestant areas are in population decline which is leading to more and more marches going through disputed areas. Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way. It’s hard for people who live in NI to appreciate, but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north.
It wasn’t so long ago Nationalists wouldn’t put Irish as their nationality on application forms as they knew it would ensure a swift trip to the rejection pile. The Unionist community have no idea how Nationalists were terrified of drawing attention to themselves for fear of sanction, official or otherwise, yet they continually bleat about erosion of confdence. I mean, are they having a laugh. For years our identity was suppressed (by ourselves and others). There has been a sharp upturn in Nationalist confidence in the last 20 years (witness the increase in Irish passports which used to draw a particularly long stare in local airports). The result of this has been long overdue physical manifestation of opposition to the OO.
No doubt Drew longs for a return to the good old days when the Loyal orders could march down the Ormeau Road and gloat over loyalist massacres without fear of censure.
Peel away the rhetoric stick with the numbers.
Have irish national separatists been winding up the ulster natives?
Burning down a vacant orange hall will not carry a heavy criminal tariff. However it might ensure the orangies clutch for their historic baggage, as Hain blows for the political train to leave the station.
Unionists going nowhere fast, as per the Provo plan.
Chris, Adams admitted in his address to supporters in Athboy that the anti-OO campaign didn’t just happen. The Irish government, in the form of Dick Spring, got sucked, wittingly or unwittingly, into the process. It’s not clear from Adams words who dreamt up the campaign but the Irish government seems to have learnt its lesson and backed off from subsequent actions such as the one in Cluan Place. The OO blundered unthinkingly into the trap that was set for it. IMO it was targeted because it represented an expression of unionism and what better time to lay siege than during its 200th anniversary.
Why the upsurge?
Good point . The result of changing demographics in some areas coupled with a larger younger Irish Nationalist population who are a good deal less inclined to tolerate the 3,000 Orange parades that take place every summer across NI than their parents were, particularly those parades that cross or impinge on ‘nationalist’ areas. Given the long acrimonious history of Orange Order parades through Nationalist areas and the inability of the OO to ‘negotiate’ with representatives of nationalist residents it’s probably no surprise that OO halls have become targets.
The failure of the NI political parties to reach an agreement on power sharing is probably also a factor as is no doubt the ‘hoodlum’ element . It would not surprise me if ‘undermining the confidence of the Unionist community ‘ is also a factor .
As to how to stop it ?
Bring back interment ?
It’s obvious that the political differences between both groups in NI are irreconcilable . The idea of power sharing is a nonsense when one half of the Government is determined to end the existence of the State and the other half wishes to maintain it . The whole Assembly solution makes a mockery of democracy in that there can be no proper opposition .
CJ Haughey was right when he said that NI is a failed political entity . It’s time for the 6 county State to be consigned to history and for Irish Nationalists and Republicans to accept that it makes better political and economic sense for the Irish Republic to aspire to a 30 County Republic and leave the British Unionists of NI to a 2 county size State in the eastern coastal area .
A 32 county UI will no more work than the 6 county NI State did ! The latter contains too many people who look forward to the States non survival and a 32 county UI would include too many alienated British Unionists . Anyway the Irish Republic will find it more productive and easier to focus on assimilating the 400,000 mainly eastern european , chinese, and british immigrants than dealing with the slave mentalities of Paisley and his ilk .
Briso,
Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way.
I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with this.
…but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north.
When did you leave? I had friends telling me that community relations got worse almost as soon as the ceasefires kicked in. Yet in actual fact there was no Greysteele or Shankill bombing, or Loughinisland. On the face of it things must have been getting better.
So these figures confirm there was something in yours/their perception. And despite the much lauded peace process Orange Halls are still being attacked as lately as last week in Maghera.
As aquifer suggests it’s low level and low risk but as many Orange Halls operate a multi functional role as community centres, it would be a perfect target for anyone seeking to undermine confidence within marginal Protestant communities.
The geographical locations of the attacks would be an interesting graph to plot over time, Mick.
More recently I’ve noticed, in an off-line way, attacks in what would be consider well integrated communities.
There was one recently which is particularly intriguing.. at Killygullib
I’ll try to track down the relevant reports but, in local papers [the Mid Ulster Mail and the Mid Ulster Observer, as I recall], a SF councillor was contradicting the reports.. claiming that the police returned to the scene with loyalists and attacked nationalist youths.
‘It’s hard for people who live in NI to appreciate, but when I left, it really was nowhere near as bad as it is now, and I’m sure it’s down to insecurity based on a steady retreat from various areas across the north. ‘
It’s part of the Repartition process that’s been going on for 20 years whioch itself has been exacerbated by the fast growing and younger Irish population . At some point the DUP will take out their ‘repartition ‘ card and call a halt to Irish encroachment on British Unionist areas . Hains new Seven Super Councils will help provide a ‘legal’ recognition of the de facto Repartition which is on it’s way.
And the sooner the better IMO- The NI comic opera nonsense has gone on for long enough ! Time to get real .
Easy fellas. While not a prominent supporter of the OO I think that burning down orange halls will damage long term republican aims (and I do not think that the OO is not a particular boon to political Unionism either).
The question is how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong?
‘it would be a perfect target for anyone seeking to undermine confidence within marginal Protestant communities. ‘
Despicable.
It’s just another sick manifestation of the inherent sectarianism which underpins NI’s existence . Northern Ireland as a 6 county State is trapped between two worlds , one dead and the other powerless to be born .
Shay,
stop circulating that it undermines the confidence of a marginalised community.
On a more serious note; for over three decades riots and destruction have been a daily occurrence. And I have seen it myself: A father telling his teenage son to stop throwing stones. The answer was short. You did the same.
Having still a limbo here and a limbo there doesn’t make it easier on any parent. But as pointed out before, two opposing wishes can not be followed up at the same time. Something has to give. But what?
‘The question is how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong? ‘
Well according to Paisley -Irish Nationalists (a.k.a) Catholics are going to hell anyway so fire bombing Orange Halls is obviously a more enjoyable way to get there for some .
Seriously ? Bring back the cat o nine tails and 72 hours in a public pillory on the village green might work.
Whatever we may think of the OO itself it is true that these Orange Halls are also used for band practice for many young Protestants and for other community activities . As such the best way for Nationalists to stop this kind of vandalism is to help local protestants rebuild and or repair their local halls and to let the vandals know that a mandatory 10 year prison sentence will be imposed for destructive sectarian activities of this ilk.
I said :Also, Loyalists are pissing on lamposts in the most extraordinary way.
Mick said: I’m really not sure what you’re getting at with this.
I meant marking territory, nothing literal! The new housing estates in Drumahoe and Newbuildings were good examples. Long long before the houses were ready, the estates were absolutely festooned with UVF and union flags. I’d never seen anything quite like that before. It was saying, “Taigs out!” in such a strident way I felt there was an element of panic there.
Your other points suggest (without quite saying
) there might be an actual low-level campaign to scare Protestants out of certain areas. Pete’s idea of correlating the locations of the attacks with the times and the demographic stresspoints is a good idea to show up something like that. There is another possiblity though, linked to Shay Begorrah’s point: “…how do you persuade young nationalists that fire bombing Orange halls is wrong?” Perhaps the same forces are at work as those which cause Derry teenagers to call an ambulance and fire crew out and then attack them. There are no orange halls around…
Betty Boo said “stop circulating that it undermines the confidence of a marginalised community. ”
Understood Betty.
Kids, setting light to Orange halls is the only way to a satisfactory accomodation with Unionism, by speaking the only language they really understand – Bonfires.
I think Mick’s right with the demographic thing. Although there is also the issue of the anti-OO campaign. The state of the Orange hall on the Whitewell Road over the last say 10 years demonstrates the effects of this campaign. The attacks got so bad they gave up repainting it and cutting the grass, and there are massive heavy bars on the front door.
In fairness, though, part of this I think was a response to the new assertiveness and brutality of the loyalist terrorist groups from the end of the 1980s, and in particular the targeting of GAA members and clubs. This is not an attempt to excuse it, but it might help explain it.
The end of terrorism and the consequent fall in police and army presence freed up energies and makes it easier to indulge in this type of behaviour.
I think also that a new wave of younger nationalists that are the equivalent of English soccer hooligans has also emerged. They insist they have rights, but have little respect for anybody else’s. Hence the trouble in the Holylands, and attacks on GAA referees etc. In my humble opinion.
Such behaviour has also been encouraged with the shift in focus from Brits Out to unionism as the main enemy.
Of course, it could just be we’re getting more sectarian, as the number of people who remember pre-69 falls, and entire generations grow up locked in religious apartheid. But keep those separate schools everybody.
Briso,
What are you on about? I don’t ever remember seeing a UVF flag in Newbuildings, ever? And what is wrong with flying union flags anyway? Plus they used to always fly the Republic of Ireland flag twice a year in the village as well if my memory serves me right.
skinbop
“So is it a meaningless coincidence? Does it relate to reactionary factors, like changes in the type of Loyalist violence? British countermeasures? Or is it simply part of a ‘war by other means’ designed to undermine confidence in the Unionist community?”
It’s obviously the work of securocrats trying to blacken the good name of Irish republicanism.
Garibaldy
Think you have it about right, but it would be a mistake to understate such acts (by either side) as they are evidence of pure hatred.
Strident, dominant and intolerant Unionism is slowly being replaced by equally strident and intolerant Nationalism. Not many lessons seem to have been learnt. You look at Israel and think given their history surely Jews would know better, but no the wrong lessons are carried forward. Same attitude applies here in NI, security through might and numbers rather than cooperation.
Some try to eradicate all evidence of the other community if they can. They despise their very existence. You start on the most disliked the Orange Order or perhaps the offices of politicians and graduate to churches and schools. How long does it take before it becomes houses and businesses. Indeed in some areas we reached that stage long ago. Look at the housing around those euphemistically termed peace walls.
I can see little real desire or evidence of either community being willing to compromise, or accommodate, or acquire an appreciation of the fears and concerns of the other. Cocooned in isolation in their ghettoes frankly I doubt if most give a dam. They all rant about their rights, their needs, their tradition and how they are inconvenienced by themuns. Often I think it would suit everyone here if one side or the other simple disappeared of the face of the earth. That would be just so convenient. Even the political system that was set up institutionalised division, our housing is separate, our schools perpetuate division as do many of our sports. Just what common ground is there? Worse than that what desire is there to create common ground?
In many ways we are living in a fool’s paradise. The portents for stability aren’t good; situations akin to this can flash over very quickly.
>Briso,
>What are you on about? I don’t ever remember
>seeing a UVF flag in Newbuildings, ever? And
>what is wrong with flying union flags anyway?
>Plus they used to always fly the Republic of
>Ireland flag twice a year in the village as well
>if my memory serves me right.
>skinbop
I didn’t actually say there was anything wrong with it skinbop. I was just commenting on my opinion that the way it is being done has changed significantly over the last number of years.
As for the UVF flag, I could be wrong. If so, I apologise. The flag I saw is sort of orange and purple. There were loads of them. I thought it was (perhaps the old) UVF flag? If not, mea culpa.
Dec,
Just seen this:
“There has been a sharp upturn in Nationalist confidence in the last 20 years.”
Whilst I would agree with that, I am not sure what that wider confidence has to do with the rise targeting Orange Halls. A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
This ‘war by other means’ has continued well into the Peace Process™ with very little comment in the wider media. We’ll try to dig a little deeper into this and try to get a handle on some of the detail here.
If any of our readers have had experience of the sharp end this ‘campaign’, or can point us in the direction of figures that can help us get to the bottom of where and when these attacks are occuring, then let us know here, or drop me an email!
I dunno about 1989 but from my hazy re-collection of the early nineties the sight of an Orangeman (could have been Apprentice Boy) holding up 5 fingers while marching past Sean Grahams on the Ormeau Road, scene of a recent UVF/UFF massacre seemed to kick something off.
I am not sure what that wider confidence has to do with the rise targeting Orange Halls. A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
Of course not but there are always those on the fringes of any society/community who take genuine concern and opposition (to OO marches through Nationalist areas – which always was going to be a byproduct of rising Nationalist confidence) to extremes – ie torching Orange Halls. However, I don’t think you can discuss the arson attack on OO lodges in isolation from other related factors: for example, attacks on GAA halls and members over the same period.
Mick
A genuinely confident community would not be targeting the opposite community in such a venal manner surely?
The problem is that neither side is confident. Potentially that makes the situation exceedingly dangerous. Does any of the rhetoric or political manoeuvring suggest confidence to you?
Crat,
That lack of confidence would seem to be the case. But Briso is in fact right to suggest that there has been a substantial rise in confidence amongst NI’s Catholics, which is why I’m struggling to see that, per se, as a causal effect.
However there seems to be an assumption at a senior level within Sinn Fein, for instance, that the undermining of the confidence of the ‘other’ is good for ‘us’. Again that is something I’m struggling to see the sense in. It’s effects are likely to destroy what
bondingbridging social capital outlived the actual conflict. In fact in a small space like NI, with our limited human resources, it is socially and economically bad for all of us.Notwithstanding Dec’s supplimentary request for figures of the burning of GAA clubs (for which the figures would be extremely useful), it seems unlikely that none of this is going to stop unless it consciously addressed in one constituency or another.
Much as the routing of march and the conduct of bandsmen and followers is an issue that ultimately has to be confronted and addressed by the Orange, the burning of Orange Halls is something that is likely only going to be resolved when it is confronted by Nationalism.
However, under the ‘rules’ of the Peace Process™, it may be that they are simply being reserved as a subject for further billateral negotiation.
When I was coming up, it was a dangerous world, and we knew exactly who the they were. It was us versus them, and it was clear who them was. Today, we are not so sure who the they are, but we know they’re there.
From a speech by GEORGE W. BUSH in Council Bluffs, Iowa on 21 January 2000 which I am sure could usefully be borrowed for the benefit of aspiring young politicians of either persuasion in Northern Ireland.
He’s missed avery important point. The burning of chapels and catholic schools.
John,
We started a thread on that a while back: http://tinyurl.com/rt5fl. It it still there if people wish to update it. Perhaps we should pin it to the top of the blog so people can log these attacks each time they occur?
“That lack of confidence would seem to be the case. But Briso is in fact right to suggest that there has been a substantial rise in confidence amongst NI’s Catholics, which is why I’m struggling to see that, per se, as a causal effect.”
But it’s more than just an increase in confidence. There has been a decrease in tolerance of things Nationalism doesn’t like. The attitude to OO marches is “we’re not taking this anymore”, and it’s not hard to see how that spills over, especially if you are forced to take it. It’s a more complex evolution of attitudes that simply can’t be bolied down to “confidence”.
“However there seems to be an assumption at a senior level within Sinn Fein, for instance, that the undermining of the confidence of the ‘other’ is good for ‘us’. Again that is something I’m struggling to see the sense in. It’s effects are likely to destroy what bonding bridging social capital outlived the actual conflict. In fact in a small space like NI, with our limited human resources, it is socially and economically bad for all of us.”
It depends what the goal is. If it is proving that NI is a failed enitity, it does make sense. I’m not entirely sure I agree with your initial statement though, your generalising form Mitchel’s comments which I’m not sure is a solid leap.
“Much as the routing of march and the conduct of bandsmen and followers is an issue that ultimately has to be confronted and addressed by the Orange, the burning of Orange Halls is something that is likely only going to be resolved when it is confronted by Nationalism.”
However, under the ‘rules’ of the Peace Process™, it may be that they are simply being reserved as a subject for further billateral negotiation.”
While this is true to an extent you are subscribing to the idea that Republicanism can switch this off and on like a tap. It simply isn’t so. There are a number of things Republicans could do to make clear this isn’t acceptable, but the genie is out of the bottle to an extent and there are always morons who will trash stuff, be it gravestones, churches or orange order halls.
Kensai,
This has to remain speculative in absence of more substantial facts. In the meantime, I’m keen to keep this conversation as open as possible to all contending interpretations.
Whilst it is fair to construe a general political stance from Mitchell’s comments, it is not fair to draw more specific assumptions from them. For instance one cannot infer that Republicans per se are responsible for these individual actions.
It depends what the goal is. If it is proving that NI is a failed enitity, it does make sense.
Sound reasoning, so far as it goes. Except no one seems willing to argue this much in the public domain, possibly because this strategy comes with a substantive price tag in terms of damaged social capital.
‘Even the political system that was set up institutionalised division, our housing is separate, our schools perpetuate division as do many of our sports. ‘
Full marks for the obvious . Even the so called ‘solution’ for the NI disease of permanent constitutional instability the GFA/NI Assembly was set up to reenforce sectarian division by terming it ‘power sharing’ . What a joke and an expensive one at that.
‘Just what common ground is there? Worse than that what desire is there to create common ground? ‘
This is the inevitable outcome of a community conflict that has continued for more than a generation . I suspect that the vast majority of both sides in NI will be quietly relieved when the Repartition of Northern Ireland becomes the only remaining option.
“Whilst it is fair to construe a general political stance from Mitchell’s comments”
While fair, I’m not entirely sure it is accurate. Mitchell clearly blurted that one out and I’m not entirely sure what he said was exactly what he meant. I can see it in the context of other goals but not a goal as of itself. Particuarly with Adams giving speeches about reaching out to Unionism.
I’m also interested in attacks on churches or homes. What’s the spread over the past 40 years.
It has been said that the Orange Halls are used for a variety of community functions. Maybe if the nationalist/catholic communities were able to use the Orange Hall more often there would be less motive to burn it.
Having said that, it does not address the extremism of the people doing the burning – if the Orange Hall is also used by the local Trocaire group, then they might not burn the Hall down but burn down the nearest Protestant church instead, or call out an ambulance to stone.
Kensei,
Perhaps Adams’ speeches about reaching out to unionists, and the laying of wreaths at WWI memorials, are the gloss on the more aggressive and confrontational substance that Mc Laughlin revealed. I think both the DUP and PSF need instability and confrontation to thrive politically. I think they would prefer if this confrontation didn’t physically manifest itself anymore (e.g. the efforts by the Provos at interface areas and Orange marches to keep a lid on violence) but their whole strategies are based on appearing as the only parties that can successfully and aggressively fight the corner of their respective electorates. Their success in persuading the electorate of this helps explain the demise of the UUP and SDLP. To be successfully representing your side, you have to show the other side is losing. So by saying look at the state of unionism, PSF can distract from the massive compromises and u-turns they have made, and present them as victories.
Mick,
have you tried the OO for statistics? Or the GAA?
I’m not sure PSF does want to prove that NI is a failed political entity so much as they want to make things unworkable without their participation. They have effectively failed to do this with the police, but have succeeded to a much greater extent with the parades issue. FRrom where I’m standing, it’s about ensuring the maximum influence for their party in the longer term. They fostered instability to see off the SDLP, now they want to reduce it to minimal levels so they can get on with exercising power while maintaining their status as the assertors of Catholic interests.
“Perhaps Adams’ speeches about reaching out to unionists, and the laying of wreaths at WWI memorials, are the gloss on the more aggressive and confrontational substance that Mc Laughlin revealed.”
I don’t buy that for a second and it’s far too easy a way out. It doesn’t make sense.
“I think both the DUP and PSF need instability and confrontation to thrive politically.”
I don’t buy this for a second either. SF presents a nationalism that doesn’t feel the need to constantly apolgise for itself, and is clear about what it wants. The SDLP equivocates, and was worse in the past. And the DUP have the advantage of not being a shambles.
“I’m not sure PSF does want to prove that NI is a failed political entity so much as they want to make things unworkable without their participation. They have effectively failed to do this with the police, but have succeeded to a much greater extent with the parades issue.”
Police is both unsatisfactory at the moment and unworkable in Republican areas.
“From where I’m standing, it’s about ensuring
the maximum influence for their party in the longer term.”
This is true. It’s a tautology where politcal parties are concerned.
“They fostered instability to see off the SDLP,”
This isn’t. The SDLP really don’t get it. We don’t want post nationalism. We don’t want to apologise for who we are. We want to ge closer to a United Ireland and want someone who will stand up to Unionist bluster. Which is why the SDLP is in the state it’s in, nothing to do with “fostering instability”.
i think the attacks on catholic churches post ceasefires of 1994 would be considerably more than attacks on orange halls since 1989
rc,
Am in pursuit of same.
Kensei,
What about PSF people saying that the demographics make a UI inevitable, and the unionists should make as good a deal as they can? This can be found in the PSF contribution to a book on the meaning of republicanism for the bicentenary of 1998 (The Republican Ideal ed. N. Porter), and has been made on the television and stuff as well. In this mindset, there’s no need to accomodate unionism, it’s simply a matter of strengthening the position of nationalists within the NI state until the demographics kick in.
This seems to me to be the logic of PSF policy. Thus minor approaches to unionism are good PR, and might even work. They cost nothing, but don’t alter the fundamental approach.
As for confrontation, the anti-Parades campaign helped PSF gain votes and seats in areas where they previously were weak. On top of that, they captured I would say the overwhelming majority of young nationalist voters, thus depriving the SDLP of a renewed vote. That’s why I think the instability was a deliberate political policy. The same reason decommissioning was dragged out for so long. I wasn;’t criticising the Provos for seeking power, I was pointing out that they were not trying to wreck the state, but were simply trying to act as other parties do.
I think your last paragraph proves my point in talking about standing up to unionist bluster. we aren’t actually disagreeing that much. Except of course, I think PSF policy is sectarian and increases sectarianism deliberately, and that this is anti-republican.
“What about PSF people saying that the demographics make a UI inevitable, and the unionists should make as good a deal as they can? This can be found in the PSF contribution to a book on the meaning of republicanism for the bicentenary of 1998 (The Republican Ideal ed. N. Porter), and has been made on the television and stuff as well. In this mindset, there’s no need to accomodate unionism, it’s simply a matter of strengthening the position of nationalists within the NI state until the demographics kick in.”
I think the view has matured, and the last cenusus in particular hinted it might take a little while longer than expected. Moreover, SF wants power in the South, and tormenting Unionism might be fun, be it isn’t going to help that goal.
“This seems to me to be the logic of PSF policy. Thus minor approaches to unionism are good PR, and might even work. They cost nothing, but don’t alter the fundamental approach.”
And thus you misunderstand the Republican mindset. Doing the Poppy Day thing might seem symbollic, but it was a hard thing Republicans and not entirely without cost.
“As for confrontation, the anti-Parades campaign helped PSF gain votes and seats in areas where they previously were weak.”
That may be the result, but I don’t believe it was down to some magic targetted strategy to cause instability. It was simply because large swathes of Nationalists don’t like Orange Parades and that policy for an assertive Nationalist Party is a shoo-in.
“On top of that, they captured I would say the overwhelming majority of young nationalist voters, thus depriving the SDLP of a renewed vote. That’s why I think the instability was a deliberate political policy.”
Again, that’s a result you are pointing out and sthen say that the link is self evident, when it isn’t. Why would instability naturally lead to capturing all the younger votes. The problem for the SDLP has been simple: their policies are wrong. SF produced a more assertive Nationalism and that naturally appealled to a generation who have less hang ups about being irish.
“The same reason decommissioning was dragged out for so long.”
There were a lot of reasons it was dragged out, mainly linked to gaining enough support and using it as leverage.
“I think your last paragraph proves my point in talking about standing up to unionist bluster. we aren’t actually disagreeing that much. Except of course, I think PSF policy is sectarian and increases sectarianism deliberately, and that this is anti-republican. ”
No, standing up against anti-Catholic parades and pointing out the huge hypocrisy of Unionist policy isn’t sectarian. Only when we have removed these form both sides (and I accept republicans also have work to do) can we ever think of coming together. Brushing it under the carpet helps no one.
This suggestion may probably be a bit too radical for some, but here goes.
When parade routes are agreed to everyone’s satisfaction, I think Republicans and even some recgonisable Sinn Fein officials should go along to quietly observe the Orange Parades, in a respectful manner. I am not suggesting that they march and clap to Orange tunes, but I do think it would be politically astute to show some understanding and respect for the traditions of the Unionist community. If we are saying we are looking for an Ireland of Equals, where Unionist, Nationalist and other are respected equally, why not show that? Take the lead!
Perhaps observing a July 12th parade in a less contentious area such as Rossnowlagh? I have been there when the parade is taking place, there is little to object to. Radical I know, but maybe radical is what we need to stop this nonsense of burning down each others buildings?
“there are always morons who will trash stuff, be it gravestones, churches or orange order halls”
True- only these attacks are generally not spontaneous,or in response to a rise in community tension. They are well planned, involving several people, often using heavy industrial machionary to effect entry- Moree in County Tyrone has a JCB driven through the security fence for instance.The preferred method is to break through the roof and pour petrol in- a little bit too sophisticated for your average spide’s cider-muddled head to plan.
“I think the attacks on catholic churches post ceasefires of 1994 would be considerably more than attacks on orange halls since 1989 ”
Then you would be wrong- and not for the first time. Interestingly, when the Chapel in Crumlin was damaged a few years ago one of the first to open his cheque book to help the rebuilding fund was one James Molyneaux of the Orange Institution. Can’t ever recall Gerry or Marty opening the wallet for an Orange hall in their constituencies- and them with all those Northern Bank notes gathering dust.
People need to understand that Roman Catholics do use many orange halls- the creche near Magheragall, the irish dancing classes in a hall near Donemana, the dole office in Randalstown in recent years,the blood donation sessions elsewhere, the DPP meetings in Stranocum, a hundred plays, and other local events. The local Roman Catholics have come along to our Lodge fundraising night and auction in recent years.
It is insightful to see the number of posters from the republican viewpoint trying to deny or minimise or explain these statistics without wanting to overtly justify them.
“It is insightful to see the number of posters from the republican viewpoint trying to deny or minimise or explain these statistics without wanting to overtly justify them.”
you ->
<- point of this thread
Mick
However there seems to be an assumption at a senior level within Sinn Fein, for instance, that the undermining of the confidence of the ‘other’ is good for ‘us’. Again that is something I’m struggling to see the sense in.
Occasionally when we set something in motion it builds a momentum all of its own, and this may be such a case. We become trapped by the consequence of what seemed appropriate at a time. Also within sections of the Republican household there are those who would like to see Unionists suffer in purgatory, if not hell. So irrespective of any over arching political scheme these things happen, and making themuns look humbled plays well to the core supporters.
Of course the current position of the DUP doesn’t help as those that want progress, and be seen to be making progress, are blocked. There are few visible signs of progress so what other outlets? Maintain the policy of attack on the other community albeit at a lesser level, less risky than political initiatives and keeps idle hands busy? After all those carrying out these attacks are likely to have a very different mindset to that of the political class.
I would have thought that the best policy for both sides would be to make this place work and be seem as being involved in that process, but that is me being simplistic. At present it would seem that the politicians are actively seeking redundancy, which is a strange policy.
The side that wins the votes of the floaters is the side that will win some future poll and none of them impress this floater. Burning halls and churches is a real turn off. Today the Orange Order tomorrow well you never know what may be expedient.
>>I was just commenting on my opinion that the way it is being done has changed significantly over the last number of years.
So it has changed for the better or worse or??
>>As for the UVF flag, I could be wrong. If so, I apologise. The flag I saw is sort of orange and purple. There were loads of them. I thought it was (perhaps the old) UVF flag? If not, mea culpa.
Not sure when you actually did see the flag in question. But its a moot point in any case. Not sure I follow if you are saying it is an improved situation or that is how it used to be.
You also stated in a much earlier post that Newbuildings was a “new estate”. You will find that it has actually been there for many years. Although once tagged “is this the most sectarian village in Northern Ireland”, Newbuildings was thankfully free of loyalist gangs.
Excellent thread this.
Not available anywhere else.
Elephant in the house – DRUMCREE!!!
Green Flag, you are neither a nationalist and a republican but an approximately 2 and a half county unionist. Change the treacherous record!
>>So it has changed for the better or worse or??
It has changed for the much more visible and organised. Better or worse is a subjective thing. Personally, I think it is bad that the new estates are being marked out in such a way as to make sure no taigs buy houses in them.
>>Not sure when you actually did see the flag in
>>question. But its a moot point in any case.
Last year.
>>Not sure I follow if you are saying it is an
>>improved situation or that is how it used to be.
See above.
>>You also stated in a much earlier post that
>>Newbuildings was a “new estate”. You will find
>>that it has actually been there for many >>years.
No, I talked about a new estate IN Newbuildings and one in Drumahoe.
>>Although once tagged “is this the most
>>sectarian village in Northern Ireland”,
>>Newbuildings was thankfully free of loyalist >>gangs.
I know, and I’ve no intention of commenting on this as I don’t live there. That sort of comment doesn’t help anyway as the actions of a few are applied to the whole village which is unfair and counter-productive.
Crat,
It’s interesting that you put the DUP in the dock for this as well as Sinn Fein.
It has to be said that the settlement of the Tour of the North parade was evidence that these two (or at least their supporters in the community) can broker a de-escalation in community tensions.
Whilst the detail on the Whiterock parade seems mind bogglingly trivial to an outsider, it may be an improvement that they fall out over detail than major priniciples.
However, despite the virtual disappearance of (Republican) politically motivated criminality in a few short months, church and Orange Hall burning don’t seem to have become subject to any agreement as yet.
It gives the impression (whether true or not) that in the Peace Process™ game every last thing must be brought to a table somewhere and billaterally agreed before it can be dealt with by the defaulting community.
“”It is insightful to see the number of posters from the republican viewpoint trying to deny or minimise or explain these statistics without wanting to overtly justify them.”
you ->
<- point of this thread
Posted by kensei on Jun 20, 2006 @ 05:31 PM”
And there’s another one! Instead of trying to prescribe the limits of debate by your interpretation of the thread, I present to you the alternative option-to free your mind from its chains
Kensei-try it-
” I think it’s wrong to attack the property of people I don’t like,even if the people doing it are people I do like”
See? Not so difficult.