Hi boy, listen tae this…
TALKBACK in five minutes will be live from Ballymena, with, no doubt, plenty to say about the usual ‘Ballymena’ topics – sectarianism and shopping. And don’t forget funny accents, dopey DUP councillors excusing the bigotry that does occur and angry republican callers lambasting the entire town to feel some kind of collective guilt. One-dimensional analysis that reinforces the stereotype again, or will there be any surprises this time? Imagine Dunseith finding something positive to say about the town!
kensei
how, exactly, is damaging the reputation of one of your constituencys’ largest employers in the electoral interests of th SF MLA?
“Ziznivy-extreme anti-catholicism manifested itself in the murder of michael mcilveen.if it was the other way about imagine the consequences.my apologies for poing that question but such is the level of hatred in b’mena”
The consequences would have been similar. They may have been magnified due to force of numbers. Still the net result would have been gangs of youths in the area attempting to cause trouble, congregating outside schools with intent and with weapons, vandalising local property etc.
Wrightbus is based in Galgorm, which is an affluent part of Ballymena, and no more than two miles from anywhere in the town. It is farthest away from the most loyalist part of Ballymena, (South of the Bann, Harryville, Ballee and Ballykeel). The fact that they have a max. 6 percent catholic population is a disgrace, and it is amusing to me that some people think that the response – what about [insert name here] group, they employ x% more catholics – is good enough. So what we’re saying is if one place employs 95% catholic, then it’s ok for another company to employ 95% protestant? Why not go the whole hog, and have catholic workplaces, and protestant workplaces? Or catholic restaurants/cafes/bookshops etc. and protestant ones.
Why if we work hard enough at the segregation of our community we can live side by side for a lifetime, and never have to meet each other at all. What a fantastic idea.
nmc,
surely we have all that for the majority of our population de facto already?
Ziznivy you keep watching those badgers with their pendulous…… ; }
Fermanagh county is 44% Protestant and 56% Catholic
The Sperrin Lakeland Trust employs 34% Protestants and 66% Catholic
The Western Education and Library Board employs 37% Protestants 63% Catholic
The makeup of a workforce does not necessarily mean that discrimination is taking place.
In the same way, it would be wrong to say that the almost total absence of Protestant elected representatives within Sinn Fein means that the party is sectarian, for that reason alone.
Does anyone know of any examples where WrightBus has been in breach of any equality laws? I live in Southern Nevada which has just signed a $50 million with Wrightbus Ltd.
”
Ziznivy you keep watching those badgers with their pendulous…… ; }
Posted by neill armstrong on Jun 15, 2006 @ 05:53 PM”
It is my belief that Ballymena needs more Slavs and less Teutons. I was encouraged to hear that Mr Wright has been recruting Slavs due to their excellent coach-building skills. Soon Ballymena North will shed its deadwood councillors and return a strong NBP candidate, prepared to advance Limonov’s ideas at Ardeevin and the Town Hall.
Nevada_Resident
Lets be absolutely clear about this: Wrightbus is in contravention of absolutely no equality or discrimination laws.
There may be an under-representation of the Catholic comunity in its workforce, but the company complies with all measures to increase this – if they were not compliant then action would have been taken against them.
Anyway, to seek to remove the contract from this company wouldnt just damage protestants/unionists. Surely SF should care about all of Ballymena and the money which this company puts into the local economy – into businesses owned by Catholics and Protestants.
Its a disgraceful attack on a company which is doing what a lot more people here should be doing: getting out there and winning world class contracts and showing that NI can lead the world in a particular enterprise and generating wealth instead of relying on Government subsidies etc etc.
FYU:
I did a quick check from the 2001 NI Census and I suggest that you are using the total population figures when you post the 44%/56% split.
But, as far as I can see, the breakdown in the economic activity groups is 37% Protestant and 62% Catholic.
If this be so, then the employment breakdown you cite would be right on target, wouldn’t it?
Wrightbus is in Galgorm…..it is surrounded by Protestant villages, Cullybackey and Ahoghill and close to Harryville.
The company no doubt recruits on merit and most probably doesn’t attract applicants from Catholics.
Its a nonsense to blame the company for the lack of catholic employees. Perhaps it would be interesting to know if its numbers were increasing or decreasing…
Bob
“If this be so, then the employment breakdown you cite would be right on target, wouldn’t it?”
Perhaps FYU is suggesting we put more protestant pensioners back to work.
Carson’s Cat,
“Anyway, to seek to remove the contract….” Nobody is trying to remove the contract as you are correct that it would not be in anybodies best interest to do so. With a contract of that size ($50 Million) and taking into account the new employees that WrightBus will hire to fulfill that contract, RTC of Southern Nevada can push for an environment more representative of local demographics.
not sure if this is relevant, remove if you like (think the ball is in there somewhere)
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2006/sw259/sw-259-6.htm
“Another Paisley supporter, William Wright, is the richest man in Ballymena and one of the biggest capitalists in the North. He is Chairman of the bus manufacturing company Wrightbus which employs around 800 workers in Ballymena and supplies buses to Bus Eireann. One of his last acts as a member of Ballymena council was to wave an Orange sash above his head and declare: “The Ulster Protestants are being treated like the Jews under Hitler.”"
Nevada_Resident
Go tell whoever is in charge of procurement of this $50 M bus deal, that the chairman of the board for the vendor is a member of the equivalent of the KKK. That should put it in context.
When the people of Northern Ireland realise the rest of the worlds opinion of them is more important that the opinion we have of each other, only then will things really change.
McGrath
you obviously have no family working at Wrightbus or earning a living in the Ballymena area.
Think about what you are saying, and in what context, before you come out with libelous crap like the KKK crack.
Or are you happy to join the Sinn Fein smear campaign and help damage the company?
I don’t think McGrath is the first (or will be the last) person to see the glaring similarities between the OO and the KKK.
As far as I am concerned, Wrightbus are free to run their business what ever way they like. It is up to their customers to judge them.
Maybe when money and livelihoods are put on the line companies like Wrightbus will give serious thought to what their business profile looks like.
BTW, its only libel when it isn’t true.
Ah limonov i wondered when he would be brought into the debate.As for Mr Wright i have the highest admiration for the man,to build up a company to the size he has deserves a healthy level of respect.
McGrath
I know my way around the defamation law, thank you very much.
As I said, libelous crap.
“how, exactly, is damaging the reputation of one of your constituencys’ largest employers in the electoral interests of th SF MLA?”
Well, you are the one proposoing they are “stirring up” things. If it isn’t for some sort of electoral or strategic reason (I believe in the US this is known as 2energising your base) then presumably you think they are going it out of malice, or something, which would make you some kind of insane raving bigot, and I don’t want to believe that.
Also FYU – that backfired somewhat spectacularly, no?
kensei
they are doing it because of malice directed towards the owner, see the above posts. Anything else is a bonus for the Shinners.
“As for Mr Wright i have the highest admiration for the man,to build up a company to the size he has deserves a healthy level of respect.
Posted by neill armstrong on Jun 15, 2006 @ 10:22 PM”
I actually agree with that, maybe the man will become so successful he will realize the orange culture around him and his company could actually pose a great risk to his business. Maybe this large contract will be a catalyst to bring about fairness in his business.
People, dont get me wrong, I would view any republican business with the same disgust, except there are no significant republic owned business’s. (except of you are warped enough to count diesel laundering and cigarette smuggling as real business’s).
McGrath
you implied some knowledge of the defamation law.
Why then did you post “Maybe this large contract will be a catalyst to bring about fairness in his business.”?
Now justify the allegation of implied unfairness.
McGrath:
“…he will realize the orange culture around him and his company could actually pose a great risk to his business.”
What danger? I don’t know what authority you think ‘slanderous’ gossip carries on an internet site – even a well read one like this.
I’ve seen a lot of punches thrown on this thread, but have yet to see one land.
I might also say that constantly drawing pejorative parallels between the Orange and the KKK doesn’t make it true – except in the feverish imaginations of those who constantly assert it – without in the least ever offering a shred of evidence.
It comes over as a tedious pyschodrama in which the same (Orange) demons are conjured up over and over again – and we’re back in “Unionism/Orangemen ate my baby” territory again.
The only way to avoid the tedium is to get down to detail, and come up with figures and evidence of contravention of equality legislation. If you can’t do that, then I suggest you take the personal pyscho battles and live them out elsewhere!!
Mr. Fealty:
“…he will realize the orange culture around him and his company could actually pose a great risk to his business.”
What danger? I don’t know what authority you think slanderous gossip carries on an internet site – even a well read one like this.”
The RTC of Southern Nevada is a US public agency and as such in its bidding process it must confirm if the successful bidder complies with the McBride principles. If RTC of Southern Nevada assessed that this bus manufacturer does not indeed comply with the McBride principles, that would be a great risk to their business.
“I might also say that constantly drawing pejorative parallels between the Orange and the KKK doesn’t make it true – except in the feverish imaginations of those who constantly assert it – without in the least ever offering a shred of evidence.”
I have read everything I can find relating to the OO and the KKK. I even have had some discussions with members of each. Short of writing a thesis on in, publishing it here to bore everyone to death with, a reasonable person can recognise the same supremacist doctrine both bodies subscribe to. I will keep looking, someone must have wrote something of substance on this issue.
“It comes over as a tedious pyschodrama in which the same (Orange) demons are conjured up over and over again – and we’re back in “Unionism/Orangemen ate my baby” territory again. ”
I despise Orangeism and Republicanism equally. What does that make me?
“The only way to avoid the tedium is to get down to detail, and come up with figures and evidence. If you can’t do then I suggest you take the personal pyscho battles and live them out elsewhere!!”
Sorry, I will try to be more detailed in future.
McGrath
now be so good as to justify “unfairness”.
“…it must confirm if the successful bidder complies with the McBride principle”.
That may be so. Picking out the religious/political convictions of its owner does not consistitute a breach. Don’t get me wrong, I’m interested in the story. But if equality legislation worked on the simple basis people are calling for here, NI PLC would be even deeper trouble than it currently is.
If there is a real story here, I want to hear it. I’m not interested in the demonisation of people or even groups of people in place of scoring real political points.
PS, I wasn’t exclusively pointing at you with those pyschodrama remarks McG. It has been a recurring feature of discourse here for far too long.
This thread is extremely alarming and is indicitive of how much ground we still need to cover in this country. The poster named McGrath appears to be suggesting that Wrightbus be boycotted because of the political and religious opinions of it’s proprietor. It is disappointing, but unsurprising, to find republicans apparently expressing this point of view.
It’s disturbing that there are those who think that the future of this country should be based around trying to obstruct entrepreneurs who provide a livelihood to hundreds of people over their expressed political or religious views. Wright has a right to be bigoted – this isn’t a crime for him, any more than it is a crime for republicans. If anyone has got any evidence that he has broken discrimination law, they should present it now or shut the hell up.
“McGrath
now be so good as to justify “unfairness”.
Posted by pakman on Jun 16, 2006 @ 12:11 AM”
Please note the following post from earlier, I feel its fairly clear.
“The Equality Commission’s monitoring report for 2004 (the most recent available, it seems), states that
Wrightbus Ltd has 710 employees, of whom 662 are Protestant (95.3% of those stating a religion) and 33 are Catholic (4.7%). 15 declined to answer the question on religion.
A model employer in a 20% Catholic town?
Posted by Stephen Copeland on Jun 15, 2006 @ 03:38 PM”
Mcgrath
I don’t see any evidence of unfairness.
Perhaps you could explain.
Explain the employment imbalance? Catholics just dont want to build buses? Not likely.
What proactive measures are Wrightbus taking to remedy the imbalance?
MacBride Principles – Artical one – “A workforce that is severely unbalanced may indicate prima facie that full equality of opportunity is not being afforded all segments of the community in Northern Ireland. Each signatory to the MacBride Principles must make every reasonable lawful effort to increase the representation of underrepresented religious groups at all levels of its operations in Northern Ireland.”
If an employer is not “making every reasonable lawful effort to increase the representation of underrepresented religious groups”, they they are in violation of MacBride Principle #1.
Is the manufacturer in question a signatory to the MacBride principles?
The buyer is.
Look at the following link:
http://www.irishnationalcaucus.org/pages/Articles2002/Kentucky Fried Chicken Forced By Caucus and Others to Take Down Anti-Catholic Mural.htm
I realize its probably old news, but the message is still clear.
I understand it relates to a Loyalist Mural, but any Americans I talk to cannot / do not distinguish between Loyalists and the Orange order.
Further, the people in question were private American citizens bailing out of a retirement fund. Consider this, the decision maker(s) for the public agency buying these buses are even more conservative that the private citizens bailing out of the KFC retirement fund. Ask any one of these public agency employees how long they have left until they retire, and they can usually give you an answer to within one month. Their buying decisions are based on fear, uncertainty and doubt, meaning, they won’t do anything that could reflect badly on themselves or possibly jeopardize their retirement / pension. Consider further if they are presented with two fairly equal products, but with one product there is a possible question of unfair employment, a remote possibility that there could be a violation of the MacBride bidding principles, which product option do you think they will chose?
This is very sad. A thread about Ballymena has now jepordised a contract for a local company. Wrightbus have a very low % of catholics relative to Ballymena. The other gripe is that the former owner is an orangeman.
While Wrightbus do not appear to be in breach of anything (and no-one has provided any evidence) maybe there are other factors affecting the % of catholics in Wrightbus, such as:
1. The location among protestant villages
2. The fact that the ex-owener is an orangeman – he may not be biased to his employees, but the perception is there that an Orangeman would favour protestants over catholics for promotion etc.
3. Discouragement from political representatives – Sinn Fein don’t like this company, so they are hardly going to encourage catholics to join.
4. Skills. Maybe for the job type (engineering) catholics are less likely to be trained than protestants
These seem to me several factors that could affect the workforce breakdown in most companies, never mind Wrightbus.
Maybe they can be addressed before the thread manages to lose the company more contracts.
pakman,
‘Or are you happy to join the Sinn Fein smear campaign and help damage the company?’
You have yet to produce an iota of evidence of any smear campaign and any attempt to damage the company.
Religious imbalance in the workplace is still very much a live issue. Now if you have any evidence to suggest that the figures supplied by Philip Mc Guigan are wrong then please give alternative figures.
Philip Mc Guigan is an elected representative for that area, an area that has seen a steady sectarian campaign by unionists in the past number of years that has concentrated on Ballymena and surrounding villages. A campaign that has culminated in the death of Michael Mc Ilveen. If anything is ‘in your face’ it is that camapign.
I suggest that you are well aware of this and your shrill attempts to divert attention away from this fact and towards the SF statement (not challenged as factually incorrect) are bogus.
Of corse you will apply this logic to another coach company in bellaghy wont you pat,who employ next to no unionists?
“they are doing it because of malice directed towards the owner, see the above posts. Anything else is a bonus for the Shinners.”
I read the above posts, seen the accusation but, er no actual evidence.
“I might also say that constantly drawing pejorative parallels between the Orange and the KKK doesn’t make it true – except in the feverish imaginations of those who constantly assert it – without in the least ever offering a shred of evidence.”
You cannot deny that the OO is an anti-Catholic organisation. I have never drawn parallels between the OO and the KK, and have been 100% clear on my problems with it – but if you really want to get down to it, there quite clearly some worrying parallels there if you wanted to draw them.
“Of corse you will apply this logic to another coach company in bellaghy wont you pat,who employ next to no unionists?”
Yes I will. Now stop the whataboutery, and stick to this case, ta.
McGrath
you posted :
“Maybe this large contract will be a catalyst to bring about fairness in his business.”?
When and how was the corporate governance or employment practice at Wrightbus ever anything but fair?
Pat McLarnon
if you have any evidence to suggest the employment figures at Wrightbus have contravened any law or regulation please post accordingly.
If not I suggest you do what McGuigan has singularly failed to do and congratulate this local success story on a job well done.
My Mum (73) was almost going to ring in to Talkback yesterday.
She was a bit miffed at all this Nationalist North Ballymena and divided town stuff.
She was brought up in the Dunclug area (admittedly when it was just fields)
She says what is wrong with Ballymena can be summed up in 4 words.
It is the answer to the following questions-
Who divided the Presbyterian Church?
Who divided the Orange Order?
Who Divided the Unionist Party?
Who divided the people of Ballymena?
Step forward…
The Reverend Ian Paisley
McGrath
If you have evidence of discriminatory policies at Wrightbus then you must contact the Equality Commission forthwith to solve the problem! It’s your public duty. Or perhaps you have already.
Please remember that they require evidence and neither hearsay, conjecture nor circumstancial evidence.
pakman,
you seem not to want to confront the ongoing sectarian problems of Ballymena preferring to see some SF bogeyman in the shape of Philip Mc Guigan. You attribute a factual statement (not challenged by you) about a local company as ‘in your face, while ignoring murder, bombings and intimidation.
You seemingly prefer to confront imagined problens rather than the very real and ongoing sectarianism that is rife in Ballymena. An indicator perhaps of why sectarianism contains to flourish in that part of the world.
Pat McLarnon
you are late to the party. I sugest you read what I’ve posted.
Here’s a factual statement “Wrightbus has not fallen foul of Northern Irelands’ employment legislation which is amongst the most stringent in the EU.”
Here’s another “Sinn Fein appeared on BBC Radio Ulster the day the Nevada contract was announced to attack the companys’ employment figures despite there being NO suggestion of bias or unfairness in Wrightbus’s practices.”
“I sugest you read what I’ve posted.”
No, I suggest read what has been posted. Being within the letter of the law doesn’t stop it being an issue worthy of debate. As I said, Wrightbus could kill this stone dead by saying we are aware of it and have done x,y,z about it.
larneman
Tell your ma to do a bit of homework before she rings Talkback and embarasses herself too greatly.
“Who divided the Orange Order?”
I can only assume that you mean the Independent Orange Order, formed in 1903, some 23 years before the birth of Ian Paisley. I’m not sure whether someone should be pleased or not to be credited with something from before their birth.
“Who divided the Unionist Party?”
The answer to that one is probably David Trimble. The UUP was trundling along with 10 MPs to the DUP’s 2 until Trimble came along and gave the DUP a helping hand.
“Who divided the people of Ballymena?”
Nearly 55% of the people of North Antrim would seek to disagree going by the results of the last General Election.
However, on second thoughts. With such a superficial analysis of the situation and a complete lack of basic information it sounds like your mum would be quite at home on Talkback.
kensei
you must have missed my 0313pm from yesterday where I confirmed that Wrightbus had sought advice from the Equality Commission and had an affirmative action plan in place.
Are you happy that this has now been killed “stone dead”?
pakman,
It might be useful if you could put some flesh on the bones of your assertions. You are an anonymous poster making claims without linking them to verifiable evidence. You can surely see the problem?
If Wrightbus are involved in affirmative action this is good news. So why is it impossible to demonstrate with a press release, or something similar? I presume Wrightbus are pleased to be taking the action you claim, so they must have publicised it somewhere.
James Andrews-would you be willing to name the coach company in bellaghy who according to you employ next to no unionists?