1982: that was the year that was…
After the Republic’s quiet exit from the World Cup last October with a spirited but ill fated fight against the French and a lack lustre draw against the Swiss, there is no Irish interest in the World Cup finals. No doubt for some, England is the natural receptacle for our loyalties, and anyone but… for others of us. But for others still the only true compensation will be in looking back to past glories, particularly to a time when the Republic’s glory days were nothing more than a glint in the eye of one gruff Northumbrian called Charlton.
Tags: Sport
“A wee bit of luck indeed, and an English manager who no doubt realised from NI’s team based performances in 82 and 86 that the sum of the parts can indeed be more than the whole.”
Just to pick up on this – I sincerely doubt Big Jack was influenced by NI that much. If you read any of his writings or thoughts on football, he has very strong ideas on how the game should be played and who should be playing it. He is quite tactically asute as well, dating back from his days as a player at Leeds. He took advice from the like sof revie and Jock Stein, too.
Saying he merely played long ball is selling him short. He merely cut his cloth to suit.
“Saying he merely played long ball is selling him short. He merely cut his cloth to suit. ”
I don’t know if that’s really true.
He played basically the same “up and at’em” tactics when he managed at Sheff Wed, Middlesboro and Newcastle, even when he had gifted players like Sounness, Beardsley and Waddle at his disposal
Paul
That is a very disturbing report, first I ever heard of it. Incredible the Gardai pull an “Israel Loves Ireland” poster off the car of visiting fans, tell one jewish guy in an Ireland shirt to move on because he has the temerity to wear a symbol of his religion but they actually allow demonstrators to give Nazi salutes and shout Nazi slogans at Jews! Incredible.
I suppose it should not surprise me that I never heard about it, after all the Intifadists in charge of the Irish Times and RTE would never reveal the nasty vicious underside of their Palestinian poster boys.
Peter,
I would agree with your statement about club first, country second but I would say that was probably true for most fans of clubs all over the world, not just the big boys in England. I am as proud an Englishman as you could find but you could count the number of England matches that I’ve attended on one hand, but I’ve been to hundreds of Arsenal matches since I first started going in the late 70′s. I think that it comes down to whatever floats your boat. As much as I enjoy watching and as much as I jump about and cheer in my living room or down the pub when England score or win, it’s never the same as when The Arsenal score. I wouldn’t say that your average match going English fan has no club loyalties, but I would say that they are a very different breed to most match going club supporters. By the way, I do own a St. George’s cross with Arsenal FC on it, you just won’t see it at an England match.
kensei “Could the generation shift be down to the ROI playing NI in the qualifiers in 1994?”.
I cewrtainly could have a lot to do with it. Fans of neither country were on their best behaviour in both these games. I could never understand how many fans of the Republic expected N.I. just to roll over and not see this as a local derby, with all that entails.
Well, why not give it a go then (if you can get a ticket from somewhere) and judge for yourself,first-hand?
It’s a long way to go to see a team I feel ambivalent – at best – about. I don’t live on the island any more.
I think the poster who said that society had become more polarised in the last thirty/forty years – so making it very tough for the IFA (I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt) – got it right. The process of “seperate but equal” seems to be the one society is locked into.
There isn’t much killing going on but the price being paid is the creation of probably the most divided society this side of Kosovo.
If football were to escape that it would be extraordinary.
There is a way out of it – an all-island team, but I know other will throw their hands up in horror, never mind what it means for the IL.
Actually, I think the other factor in the wilting of nationalist interest (in my experience it is more that than hostility) is the general collapse in the standard of play in the IL.
My father was full of tales of Belfast Celtic and like many in the west of the city took an interest in Distillery. That meant nothing to those of us who grew up in the 1970s and 80s.
Perhaps Donegal Celtic will make a difference, but that’s a lot of weight to put on the shoulders of one little club.
Apparently FIFA and a few other nations get a little annoyed when more than one team from the UK qualify for the World Cup finals. Therefore a positive suggestion. Now and again, in the 1960s I think, the British Home International Championship doubled up as a World Cup qualifying event. Why not suggest to FIFA that in future only one British team will qualify for the World Cup finals? Once that is accepted (assumption) we could all agree that the qualifying team should be the current British champions. That’s us, I think – forever.
Apart from that, the England thing can be difficult – we all follow decent players in the premiership week in week out in support or in opposition but generally with respect. The difficulty for me with England is never the players or even the often hideously enthusiastic press – it’s the hooligans. They change everything.
“Perhaps Donegal Celtic will make a difference, but that’s a lot of weight to put on the shoulders of one little club.”
Personally, i don’t think the DC will make much of a difference with regard to increasing the support base within Belfast.
The standard of football is poor, thats for sure and from speaking to ordinary supporters over the last few weeks i didn’t sense much enthusiasm from people about going to follow a team in the IL.
Cliftonville can only muster a couple of hundred for a home game and i can’t see the DC doing much better.The GAA are very strong in the West of the city with dozens of clubs fielding thousands of players on a weekly basis at all age levels.Ardent football fans will still travel to England or Scotland to watch a decent game.
“tell you one thing Realist, you dont make it easy to support you, or any good work which is being ndertaken by the IFA, with your moronic, borerline sectarian posts!”
Brendan,
Perhaps you will explain your “borderline sectarian” comment?
Thanks.
Kensei,
You tell me that incidents away from the ground don’t count in the “you’re more sectarian than us” slanging match, and then Reg a couple of posts later details an incident in Belfast City Centre involving disgraceful behaviour by a couple of so called Northern Ireland fans on a bus.
Will you be telling him that doesn’t count?
If anyone wants to read about such incidents, they merely have to read the OWC fans site. There, laid bare, is discussion about ANY act of sectarianism witnessed at Northern Ireland games.
It’s not as if anything is hidden, or that the Anti NI Brigade have miraculous powers of detection.
Similarly, let us accept that eyewitness accounts of sectarianism detailed on ROI fans’ sites is similarly noteworthy.
Reg,
Of which “mask” do you speak? Do you struggle with truth?
“You tell me that incidents away from the ground don’t count in the “you’re more sectarian than us” slanging match, and then Reg a couple of posts later details an incident in Belfast City Centre involving disgraceful behaviour by a couple of so called Northern Ireland fans on a bus.
Will you be telling him that doesn’t count? ”
Yup. Exactly so. Assuming it is not directly to or from the game, you can’t be held responsible because some moron is wearing a shirt.
You can’t ban people buying a shirt, wearing a shirt and doing something thick, but you can effect them if they are going to games. Otheriwse every football, rugby and GAA club could probably be tarred with the same brush.
And in terms of football, you ARE more sectarian than us. And as much as that might wind you up, there is no contest. We haven’t threatened to kill one of our own players for start.
“And in terms of football, you ARE more sectarian than us. And as much as that might wind you up, there is no contest. We haven’t threatened to kill one of our own players for start”
Ahh!
Now we’re getting somewhere! Sectarianism is sectarianism. How childish is your “but, you are worse than us” guff.
If you have any information pertaining to the Northern Ireland supporter(s) who threatened Neil Lennon, could I suggest you forward the information to the PSNI.
There would be nobody more pleased than me to see the perpetrator brought to account.
Strange also that you tell me that incidents away from the ground don’t count, and then in the very next breath highlight an incident which took place, erm, in a phonebox.
If you want to join in trying to deal with sectarianism and racism in Irish football, I’ll welcome your participation with open arms. If you don’t, could I respectfully suggest that you remove the plank from your eye.
Can you recall the NI team from 1982?
If only it were not so, eh?
“And in terms of football, you ARE more sectarian than us. And as much as that might wind you up, there is no contest. We haven’t threatened to kill one of our own players for start.”
Yes Kensei you have the proof that the person who called the BBC without a recognised password, was in fact a block booked NI supporter and not someone out simply to cause bother. (such as trolls on this site)
Of course Kensei you have never been at a match in Dublin and witnessed ROI supporters rejoicing about the Holocaust in front of Israel´s national team and fans.
Shame on you all.
“I accept improvements have been made, but I’m sceptical of how deep they go, and I can appreciate if a lot of people simply don’t believe it. It’s not up to us to prove you haven’t changed”
kensei,
By your own admission, the best anyone can be reasonably expected to do is keep sectarianism/racism out of the ground. I readily accept that the FAI cannot be held responsible for sectarian thugs in ROI abusing Protestant schoolchildren in Strabane, no more so than the IFA are responsible fot a nutcase with a 20p piece in a phonebox.
The atmosphere inside the ground at NI matches has been transformed in recent years.
Who did it?
The fans themselves, facilitated by the IFA.
Evidence?
Well, get your hands on the TV footage of any game in recent times involving Northern Ireland, and compare it with that of 5 years ago.
The truth of the matter, which you find awkward, is that the changes have taken place not to placate detractors like yourself, but to enhance the match experience of Northern Ireland fans.
There is no “jump higher, and I might” game being played. Sorry if you mistakenly thought there was.
I think it is the success in recent years, recognised by those that really count, which has you somewhat wound up.
The glory days of 82 and 86 may seem distant, but the “feel good” factor is back big time.
‘kensei also hits the nail on the head when he points out that a team that plays in big tournaments with the flag and the anthem is something nationalists will be more drawn to than one that plays under a Union Jack and GSTQ.’
I accept that in the case of ordinary nationalists – people who are prepared to go into a united Ireland by simply having a bigger current ROI – but I wouldn’t have thought that republicans would have been on for supporting the football team of either partitionist entity. Especially the 26 county one that dares use the flag and anthem of THE Irish Republic as proclaimed in 1916.
IRs continually claim that the 26 county entity and its bodies aren’t legitimate in their eyes, so why would so many IRs support the ROI football team, when they would have no time for the ROI defence forces or the ROI police etc etc?
Maybe some IR group should organize a 32 country team for republicans to support. So that they wouldn’t have to support the 26 county team. But I’m sure as soon as one team would be set up there would be a split and then another split until there were several 32 county teams. And then the debate as to which team really represented the 32 county republic would break out.
I don’t think this is an unreasonable thing for IRs to do. We see from the examples of the Catalan and Basque teams that some groupings of people just set up their own ‘national’ team and ignore borders that they don’t like. So why don’t the Provisionals get a 32 county team going?
In the meantime I think most ordinary nationalists and many who call themselves republicans are quite happy supporting the partitionist 26 county team. These ‘republicans’ are quite happy with this as it doesn’t require any effort on their part and they get to see their flag and their anthem being used.
They seem to be more discriminating though when it comes to the ROI defence forces or the ROI police standing under that same flag and using that same anthem. But I suppose that’s because they have their own army that is in competition with the ROI defence forces and the ROI police. When it comes to football they don’t have a 32 county team to compete against the existing 26 county version for loyalty.
‘If the sum of the parts have to add up to more than the whole’
Mick:
That’s the second time you have said that, and I think it’s backwards. The intention is to fashion a team where the whole (the team working together) is far better than the sum of the individual parts, especially when the individual parts are not of the greatest quality.
That was the case with the NI teams of the 80s. Looking at the squad there were no big stars, and success depended on getting more out of the whole team as a unit than could be reasonably expected by looking at the team list on an individual by individual basis.
For a recent example, see the 2004 Greek team. Think of all those star players on the other teams, and how the sum of the output of one of the teams featuring numerous stars wasn’t as effective as the output of the Greek team as a whole.
‘surely it is likely some of your stars will have to play down as Charlton clearly compelled Brady to do’
I don’t know about playing down, but in such cases where success is built on following a team plan that generates more in total than could be expected from the sum of the output of each individual, there is no use sticking a star player in there if he can’t do what is necessary to meet the team plan. If the star is allowed to do his normal thing while surrounded by players of lesser talent than he is used to, it likely won’t work. Because the rest of the team won’t be able to keep up with him.
How many times have we seen this on football teams? The star of exceptional talent who won’t do what is necessary for the team. Usually leading to a bust up between the star and the manager. It’s no use if the star can dribble past 3 people from midfield if there is no one there to support him when he gets to the penalty area. Or if he does the maverick thing that no one else anticipates.
It might make great viewing, but if you end up losing because the star keeps on doing his thing and moves can’t be finished off due to the lack of supporting talent from the ordinary players, it’s useless.
I’d say most fans would prefer success from a workmanlike team, than failure from a team that features a popular star but doesn’t mesh into an effective unit. That’s why the Bradys of the world get dropped. They can’t fit in. And managers will often take the compliant ordinary talent over the strong-headed star. That’s why the Rodney Marsh and Stan Bowles types are often overlooked by national teams. They don’t want to do what they are told at national level.
‘I hope England reach the final and play Argentina. I hope they deserve to win and end up being cheated out of the match. I hope the German government bribe the Irish referee.’
Second place wouldn’t be bad. I’m sure most England supporters would take that. It would mean they probably beat Brazil in the semis. And if they were cheated out of the title, that would be a moral victory.
It all sounds good to me.