More on the McGuinness theory…
According to P O’Neill (the blogger, not the IRA) the accusation that Martin McGuinness was a spy first emerged officially through Commons previlege. It has of course been a topic of conversation here on Slugger since ‘Martin Ingram‘ floated it about the time of the outing of Donaldson as a British spy before Christmas. It’s clear he is still out to ‘get’ McGuinness. However, investigative journo Michael Smith has an interesting line on Ingram’s theory:He goes back to Ted Heath:
It was Heath who sent the experienced MI6 officer Frank Steele into Northern Ireland in early 1971 to “talk to the street communities” – a euphemism for contacting the terrorists and finding a way out of the deteriorating situation.
Why an MI6 officer? Well during the retreat from empire, MI6 became expert at “parallel diplomacy”, setting up secret backchannels to the terrorists/liberation movements who were attempting to secure independence from Britain.
Then he quotes a senior MI6 officer from his own book, The Spying Game on the subject of back channels:
“Firstly, if you have an undeclared back-channel, which carries with it the kind of trust which a front channel of politicians meeting openly in order to move one step forward in negotiations can’t possibly carry – because each knows the other has his own agenda – it is easy to develop that to the point where you can have some basis for trusting what the other person’s telling you. Because they’re not completely committed to it. If they say, ‘Look, this is the way it’s going to be as far as our party’s concerned. I’m telling you this off the record. There is no comeback on me if it doesn’t turn out as well,’ then it’s much easier to develop a concept of both sides going a little further than it is possible to go in an open negotiation. Secondly, you can verify what is being said because you have got the intelligence. So when you are in quasi-negotiation with the other side in fact you are also running intelligence sources into them and penetrating them, and when they say, ‘This is the situation,’ you also have some means of judging whether or not they’re telling you something that isn’t a lie. It makes it a little more solid foundation to help to resolve conflicts.”
He goes on to argue that McGuinness remained in contact with MI6 from the failed the Cheyne Walk talks right up to the early nineties, despite the scepticism of other branches of the Intelligence world. It is this closeness, he argues, that has nurtured rumours throughout the years of McGuinness working for the British.
However, Gail Walker in the Belfast Telegraph goes further in reading around the known (and unknown) facts:
…all the arguments SF have mustered over the years to protect McGuinness from the accusation that he was a member of the IRA only appear to fuel the suspicion now that he was a double agent. The security forces never had evidence that he was even a member of the IRA. He never did time for membership in Northern Ireland. Was never formally connected with any murder, bombing, kidnap, robbery, or anything more serious than scowling. Clean as a whistle, in fact.
How could that be? Especially when everyone knew exactly how lofty his position was within the paramilitary group. Republicans have made much of alleged collusion between the security forces and loyalist murderers. But they have been less sprightly when it comes to exposing collusion between the security forces and their very own republican murderers.
Here I go again
Am I the only one who is concerned about the implications of this leak? While I have doubts about it authenticity (I think the “securocrats” are trying to set up Ingram and McGuiness at the same time), if it is true it shows the British government to be capable of a level of savagery which even I find hard to believe. It is one thing to plan to murder your enemies, but to take one of your employees, strap him to a car bomb and use him to blow up more of your employees takes the definition of evil to a new level. Neither loyalists nor republicans descended to this level in 30 years of war.
That everyone else on this site and in the media seems to think that the possibility of J118 being McGuiness is the story suggest to me that, either you are all sick in the head, or I am missing something. The only rational I can imagine for the reaction is that unionists and their amen corner in the media know the leak is false and are just using it as a hook to target MMcG.
I am still waiting for some answer from the Sunday World or its apologists explaining why they spun the story this way. Either they believe the leak and they are sick bast***s because they think the alleged actions of the British agents are normal and that mcG being a tout is more important than mass murder by the government, or the know the leak is false and they are complicit in setting up MMcG for murder, in which case they sick evil bast***s. I say this having had the highest regard of the editor Jim McDowell and his brave stand for press freedom.
Somebody help me out here –what am I missing?
freindly creggan,
at what wesite, pray tell, are ingrams ex colleagues laughing at him.
Following the outing of Denis, Gerry Adams said he tends to be philosophical about these matters. So should we. Let’s look at some of the facts:
1.PIRA was infiltrated from day 1. Think Joe Cahill: giving an interview as O/C PIRA Belfast, fleeing south, and being captured with the Claudia.
2.Dave O’Connell, messing around with Maria McGuire and being caught smuggling weapons. Just how many of these were Southern agents, we might never know.
3.John Hume: The advances he made did take a lot of the steam out of the Derry PIRA.
4.Derry PIRA: they were supposed to be part of an overall team but punched very much beneath their weight. This is unlike South Armagh who are as near to the 26 cos as Derry is.
5.Stakeknife: The Wrong Man, who had an Italian name, was shot dead instead of The Right Man, who had an Italian name. How come no bells rang, especially when there were years of speculation?
6.Loughall: Those guys were asking for it and their demise is not evidence of collusion.
7.Hard liner PIRA/ Softliner PIRA: All of Adams’ group sang from the same hymn sheet and there were no real differences between them. The entire PIRA was wrong and, if Martin just decided to get some advance payments for his recent and current work for the Crown, so what?
8.The British, as part of their terror campaign, have always built some leaders up and demonized others. Think of Michael Collins or your favourite Provo. Their other trade mark has been divide and conquer and they did that, again, in 1970, at the start of the whole nonsense.
9.PIRA hijacked the Civil Rights movement and, as someone posted, Sunningdale for Slow Learners will resonate much longer than not an ounce, not a bullet. Good riddance to them.
I’m guessing Friendly Creggan is thinking of this.
Friendly Creggan.
The site comments were taken down because of comments made against a leading Journalist who asked for the comments to be removed. To remove the comments you must drop the whole section. Simple Eh but thanks for asking.
To all those who take a contary position to me please explain one thing.
Why should Martin McGuinness receive protection from the British state ? what is the public interest in protecting him first 1982 then 84 and then hegarty and then after cook ( Op Taurus) go on give one sound but un-motive reason for the IRA chief of staff to be protected from the courts.?
And now that he made public comments about Mr Tohill`s abductors placing themselves at the courts mercy should he too place himself before the same courts so that he can clear his name, the same courts he now recognises and respects.
Marty.
Friendlycreggan.
Just checked out your link.
The phrase “plausable bullshit springs to mind”
However after reading most of it I honestly believe that it has more than a touch of spook. I know this guys background, but this looks like a psyche op if ever I’ve seen one. slipping in things like I’m really one of you and want a proper Nationalist party. SHITE. Then as witnessed above and elsewhere very cogent articulate pieces that had all the resident cheap novel readers ooohing and ahhhing at his every word.
To spell it out this man/organisation has sinister intentions for destabilising Nationalism in general and Republicanism in particular. Any repercussions aid the DUPES in the short term, and if the brits think this will help them exit stage left gracefully, they are wrong. Unionism will not settle with trained Taigs, any more than they will with untrained. Britain must remove the sectarian veto.
It is a sign of weakness in a conspiracy theory when people mutter darkly about “more to come” in terms of revelations. It is an admission that what has been produced so far is not significant.
Calls for Martin McGuinness to make illogical and ridiculous statements add to the impression.
Failing to produce anything but still refusing to get off the pot.
It’s long been a bore and it is still a bore.
I wonder if Martin Ingram hs any thoughts on what happened at the NI Police Fund?
I was following the whole Simpson, Dawson etc thing – rollicking good fun BTW – So I checked out Simpson’s Westminster entries on theyworkforyou. I see he has got a flee in his ear about the NIPF and has been asking about police investigations into it.
This thread, and others attempting to legitimize ‘Martin Ingram’s vicious attempts to ‘get’ Martin McGuinness in order to subvert the peace process completely are so destructive that I am breaking my self-denying ordnance never to frequent this place in the hope of defeating it.
The claims by Michael Smith, Jim Cusack and ‘Martin Ingram’ are just intended to offload the spying by ‘Steak Knife’ aka DUKE, DUKE and apparently Padraig Wilson – who was so effective in ending the IRA’s actions around Derry by outing its members and starving it of heavy weapons – on McGuinness.
The tale fits McGuinness until the 1989 incident – after ‘Steak Knife’ went off the reservation because of Downing Street, the FRU and the SAS trying to set him up for the cull on the Rock in 1988. He then organized a most effective retaliation against British forces until he was finally persuaded to give up his efforts in 1991 – what then resulted in his going to the Maze and working on the hardliners to accept the GFA.
In sum, how do Smith, Cusack and ‘Martin Ingram’ explain what happened from the summer of 1988 until 1991 if McGuinness was working for MI6 all the time?
It’s difficult to comprehend how anyone could drop a bomb shell like that and then expect the ra to oust him for you. It is indeed indicative of a weak case.
Everything needs to be put on the table, including mcguinness him self. His background and the role he played. The ‘efficency of the derry brigade’, all that is out now.
What is needed is for the accusor/s to put anything more they have on the table. Hard evidence. Otherwise its all talk.
The shelf life is coming to an end. It’s not sensationalist anymore. I agree with henry, its time to shite or get off the pot.
Couldn’t have said it better myself oh busty one.
the cull on the Rock in 1988.
Noticeable indeed how those who hide behind issues about criminality to prevent democracy, so casually display their support for it in the form of state murder.
I wonder why people on this board avoid the questions posed.
Busty , Henry , RORY AND OTHERS Please explain why the British need to protect a senior IRA man from the courts for over 2 decades . Nothing too difficult in that request now is there.
In respect to the wider issues. Once Mr McGuinness and others go on the record more information will follow but only when we have them on the record.
Martin will be challenged formally to debate this issue in a public venue Life and with no PRE- CONDITIONS.
Let me remind some posters on here of the vitriolic attack upon me when I exposed Freddy, the response on here and on other Boards was of a similar Ilk was it not?
Freddy and the Sinn Fein Leadership on one hand was denying the allegation and yet in SECRET they were engaged in a legal battle with me to stop me and Freddy even asked a British court to arrest me for , WAIT FOR IT Breach of confidence that I owed HIM. Can you believe that I owed him a duty of confidence.
Well that was a fundamental mistake which took time to tease out, he went to the High court and swore an Affadavit which was a Lie and whats more he now faces a perjery charge which is not covered by the Goood Friday agreement. He is going to do time and at the same time the victims will be able to go for his criminal assetts.
In time Martin will make a fundamental mistake of that I and my team are in no doubt. When that happens, cards on the table.
In between the Ra will hold their investigation which is on going and let us not forget they are working with live material and will I am sure recognise the true position.
I note Mr Adams statement was hardly a ringing endorsement nor have we heard from Gerry Kelly or Mr Morrison.
Come on lads do not be shy, you may have got the last one wrong but have another go this time you never know you may just lucky.
Anyway back to the original point boys and Gals , what is the public interest in Martin??
Martin
That should have read Live venue.
‘Martin Ingram’, it is you who are avoiding the most important questions posed, preferring instead to ‘go’ after ‘Stake Knife’ aka Freddie Scappaticci as if this diversion is the real issue.
So Ingram if McGuinness doesn’t make ‘a fundamental mistake’ or go on the record, then you/your team won’t release further evidence? Hard to wonder what McGuinness’s response will be to that, eh?! All he has to do is keep his big yap shut. So all this was a big waste of time? You know what is on the table now isn’t enough to convict.
Ingram.
What level of education do you and your ops team have.
The romance novel set have bit. That is your whack!
“Why should Martin McGuinness receive protection from the British state ? what is the public interest in protecting him first 1982 then 84 and then hegarty and then after cook ( Op Taurus) go on give one sound but un-motive reason for the IRA chief of staff to be protected from the courts.?”- Ingram
Ingram
You’re the one that’s calling it ‘protection’.
Are you now saying that everyone who is not charged with offences here is being ‘protected’?
TP, what’s this New Sinner AC all about? We have a partially and, perhaps, mainly disarmed Da’s army, an organised crime wing, a political leadership in some disarray and a ‘civic justice’ system trying to get blue flashing lights fitted to their baseball bats. Have I missed something out? Oh yes, the Kick the Prod bands that have given us the new-fangled duck-waddle slow march.
friendly Creggan.
No the NIO said so. They said the prosecution was not in the public interest.
Shall we once more ask posters to reply : what is the public interest ?
Answers on a post Card Box 850
Ingram.
I wouldn’t put it past your ops team to have planted some republican dissenting voices on here. Who will gradually see the light of your persausive comments.
What is your angle is it for the good of anyone?
“No the NIO said so. They said the prosecution was not in the public interest”
You’ll have to show a link to that, where the NIO said this in public
I can’t remember
By the way, I was chatting to a few people in Derry last night about these latest ‘revelations’ of yours and the main response was ‘who gives a f#ck if they’re true or not?’
As many others have pointed out, how does MMcG prove that he’s NOT a spy and if he was/is, surely HMG has a lot more questions to answer than MMcG?
Prince EUNUCH
LOL
MI are you saying that you want to wait until sf go on the record with a denial, and then hit them with something, and that you have more that will satisfy those who are saying there is no hard evidence.
BB SF has already gone on record with a denial, McGuinness at Stormont with his million percent of hooey and Adams calling it rubbish (see Irish News today), so what more is Ingram waiting for?
PS see Cryptome for photos of the Traitors at Connolly House
hooey
Ingram’s playing ‘the long game’, building up to his new book LOL
IMO- he’s messed up big time, unless he has more ‘documents’ and ‘confirmations’ of codes etc
We are all helping him write his next book on here, I wonder will Greg get involved this time?
Perhaps denial was the wrong choice of word, but according to ingrams post,’once mcguinness and others go on the record more information will follow but only when they go on the record’.
So yes hooey, you are right, there was a denial.
Perhaps my question to MI then should read,
what sort of comment from sf or mcguinness are you waiting for? What constitutes going on the record?
AND what if they say no more from this point on? Will you then keep what you have got and forget about it?
There is an article in the Irish Examiner today worth reading “IRA has good historical reasons to be obsessed with spies in the camp”
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=opinion-qqqm=opinion-qqqa=general-qqqid=5068-qqqx=1.asp
Busty.
Prince EUNUCH
Please stop flirting with me, but if you must don’t castrate me again, and talk sense while you are at it.
No worries EUNUCH, but can you blame me for not talking sense when talking to you? It must take balls to come on here and spout like you do LOL.
hooey, see cryptome for Traitors at connolly house.
LOL
Busty
I take it you read romance novels then?, and gonnie leave my tackle out of it, I’m getting para.
EUNUCH, you’ll have me blushing. LOL. anyway enuf eunuch, or we’ll get banned.
Busty.
Phew, close one.
Busty , Henry , RORY AND OTHERS Please explain why the British need to protect a senior IRA man from the courts for over 2 decades . Nothing too difficult in that request now is there.
This is a fairly tranparent attempt to take attention from the fact that long promised evidence has turned out to be worthless. People are laughing at it.
In respect to the wider issues. Once Mr McGuinness and others go on the record more information will follow but only when we have them on the record.
As people have already pointed out they are on the record. It looks like a bluff
Martin will be challenged formally to debate this issue in a public venue Life and with no PRE- CONDITIONS.
This is simply pathetic. Trying to set a guy up to be shot is one thing but to then expect him to respond to an invatation to debate is unhinged.
Even if anybody is exposed as an agent now it is a tragedy for themselves and their family but the political impact is almost zero.
Only in an analysis where the peace process was “sold” to the people by the leadership is any of this relevent.
The reality is that the people were behind the process from the start but were happy to let the leadership set the pace. We will not be giving it up no matter what happens.
You guys are all sick. I feel like the boy yelling that the emperor has no clothes
Read Ingram’s J118 document. If the document is real (and I don’t think it is ) the big issue in not whether or not J118 in MMcG, but what it says about the actions of the government.
MMcG is one man. The actions the leak describes shows a whole government system which is evil.
I have read you guys whine and cry about smuggling cigarettes, “the rule of law”, “criminality”, support for the PSNI/UVF, and other such shite and you are ignoring murder by your government.
I think my basic assumption that you are only concerned about crime when it is committed by fenians is proven. If the government murders its citizens (and its employees) then you just don’t care.
I guess the focus on the McG part of the allegations is because he is a fenian.
Heck
I don’t agree with your analysis.Yes, if those documents are true it raises questions just as, if not more important than Martins alleged role as an agent.
But I don’t see a direct link to the government.I hold to the opinion that there is a distinction between the British government and the British establishment.
b TAFKABO
I hold to the opinion that there is a distinction between the British government and the British establishment.
That may be true but they come as a pair and we need rid of both.
TAFKABO
eh?
if the allegations are true then MMcG is a bad man-but he is an individual
if the allegations are true then the british government/establishment is an evil, savage criminal conspiracy.
If the allegations are true then the brits are worse than the nazis. The nazis only murdered their enemies and people they did’nt like. The Brits murder their employees.
Heck,
If the allegations are true,then yes it is about more than mcguinness, it has HUGE implications for republicanism. It will force a revision of irish history, interpet a struggle that was meant to be for independence, in to nothing more than a staged show for the British.
This is a catrostrophe for republicanism.
FYI the SW has advertised and is promising another exclusive tomorrow.
the struggle was nothing more than a staged show for the British ??? !! ??
Not even the fictional one dimensional stereotyped provo would accuse the British of being so evil.
Henry,
“Even if anybody is exposed as an agent now it is a tragedy for themselves and their family but the political impact is almost zero.
Only in an analysis where the peace process was “sold” to the people by the leadership is any of this relevent.
The reality is that the people were behind the process from the start but were happy to let the leadership set the pace. We will not be giving it up no matter what happens. ”
You summed up the reality very well there.
I think people used to bashing republicans as evil incarnate are struggling a little to understand that community seeing peace as the successful desire of their tradition.
It seems that it is easier for such people to believe the whole community have somehow been duped into peace, or that their struggle must have been defeated. The truth is that Republicans have been very happy, for a long time, that the troubles are over and the resulting politics, government, employment, investment, tradition and police is (or will be) based on equality.
Apart from Creggan the issue of Public interest is avoided like the plague?
That does say sonmething.
The venom today was no different to the venom at the time of Freddy, I said then and I repeat now.Time will sort this out, you may not be gifted with patience but I most certainly am.
My in box is flooded with pictures of new Grafitti on the walls of Republican areas. A new one in Carn Hill is most amuzing, they have managed to improvise the PIRA slogan by putting a M above the I and a figure 6 below the same I.
Marty.
Creggan. The NIO influence in the Martin McGUINNESS case reflects back to the leaked secret document authenticated by the police stemming from Operation Taurus ie the cook report file about the Hegarty and other acts titled directing terrorism.
So Martin, are you claiming that the British came up with the ‘human bomb’ concept in NI or just encouraged something that a provo dreamed up ?
And how high up in the British setup was this concept developed / encouraged / known about ?
Who knew those soldiers were going to be blown up / targeted ?
Source cook report. Freddies own words.
Scappaticci doesn’t deny that he was a leading figure in the IRA’s Internal Security Department ? and the tape would suggest that that’s where his expertise lay. He referred to the murder of Frank Hegarty, implicating Martin McGuinness who has always denied having anything to do with it.
AUGUST 1993 AUDIO RECORDING:
Scappaticci: So McGuinness got on the phone and says, `Look, you’ll be ok, blah, blah, blah’. Convinced him he’ll be ok and convinced the mother. Then, came home and McGuinness was the instrument of him being taken away and shot.
Clive Entwistle: That’s right. I mean, do you know that story because we know it?
Scappaticci: No, no, no.
Clive Entwistle: Because, the family have told it, I mean you know it, because McGuinness told you?.
Scappaticci: Well, I know it because, if we want to be straight here, I was at the heart of things for a long time, right? I’m no longer at the heart of things, right? I haven’t been for two or three years, but I know what I’m talking about, right?
Clive Entwistle: You say you were at the heart of it. How close were you to McGuinness?
Scappaticci: Well, let’s say I served on the same thing that he is on.
Clive Entwistle: The Army Council.
Scappaticci: No. Northern Command.
Protecting this man : Public interest any offers?
i take it, you don’t want to elaborate on the more important part of your claim Marti ?
Martin,
Is your mate Kevin Fulton lying when he says he was interrogated by Scap in 1994?
Elfie,
Quote”Is your mate Kevin Fulton lying when he says he was interrogated by Scap in 1994?
Why do you ask ? concerned for KF?
abacus,
who appointed you as spokesperson for republicanism. You have deliberately misposted what i said. I said it would force a re interpetation of irish history, that a struggle for independence could turn out to be nothing more than a staged show for the british.
Are you saying YOU believe it will not force a reinterpetation? Are you saying this is irreleveant to how this phase of the struggle will go down in history.
Of course this is irrelevant, there is peace and prosperity, therefore lets all be happy cos abacus says so? Don’t you think all nationalists and republicans every where are entitled to know that one of the key players could be a british agents. Didn’t we read a news paper article posted by mick fealty of a lecturer from UU in a conference in Spain, claim the leaders to be ethnic entrepeneurs? Don’t you think interpetations of the last thirty years are relevant?
The peace is not the issue, how it was achieved is a matter of dispute, and for many people it is important.
Quote”i take it, you don’t want to elaborate on the more important part of your claim Marti ?
Not really mate, sitting tight but thanks for the advice.My point is well made and you know it.
Marty
marty, theres no doubt your colleagues Hitler Breslin and Hopalong Hassan will be out with their paint pots removing the one in Carnhill. After all, they are firms men. Theyll be there standing shoulder to shoulder with their pals in mi6/sinn fein.
Martin,
According to your logic, which (if I understand correctly) is to make the guilty pay for their crimes, your mate Peter (aka KF) should be brought to book for the murder of Eoin Morley.
Any thoughts on the Haddock shooting, Martin? Is Bunter an intelligence asset? I’d be interested to see you shine some light on these issues. But your ‘quest for truth for the sake of the victims’ is in reality a psy-ops operation aimed at destabilising republicans.
It’s not big for me Busty.
I’m not saying it’s irrelevant or there shouldn’t be any interpretations made. Did i ?
Henry summed it up much better than me.
Not sure if you’ve read Leo Tolstoy’s War and Peace ? But the question arises there as to who is leading who.
In the end, the people are the one’s leading. It’s not different here.