Martin McGuinness, on the heels of Brian Rowan’s report in the Belfast Telegraph has categorically denied being a spy, and has even accused certain elements within the DUP of promoting the idea. Though it has come to Slugger’s notice that private speculation is not confined entirely to that quarter. Gregory Campbell’s only comment was that he didn’t know, and that no one would likely ever know for certain.
The oft-quoted verse from the book of Proverbs, ‘where there is no vision, the people perish,’ (chapter 29, verse 18) opens a new book by Gerry O’Hanlon, A New Vision for the Catholic Church: A View from Ireland (Columba Press, 2011). That verse could be considered an apt summary of the current state of the [...] read our review »
John Laird (Lord Laird of Artigarvan) is unionism’s jester. His memoir A Struggle To Be Heard ” by a True Ulster Liberal” (from Slugger’s shop on Amazon here) might serve more as a heavy stocking filler than anybody’s idea of a main present. In it he wears the masks of comedy and tragedy to turn the [...] read our review »
World by Storm has a nice piece up on the IRA’s role in helping MK, the armed wing of the ANC, in the 1980s. In particular he sees a strange alchemy at work there: …if one can think of a clearly legitimate contemporary struggle it was that against apartheid and it is to the credit [...] read our review »
Any critisism is for all leaderships that reach their natural plateau.
Tony Blair is about to leave the stage within the next year or so, George Bush will leave office Jan 2009.
To take the Irish peace process to an ultimate conclusion there must be “new” leadership for all the main participants. E.G. Ian P Jnr to be the new young leader of the DUP, “New DUP” is a good soundbite.
In my opinion the final settlement must be negociated by “players” who come to the table without historical baggage.
Senior current leaders can play an advisory role, but leave the direct talks to those with “New” vigor to argue their cause with youthful passion.
A romantic notion maybe, but if successful a beacon of hope to hold up to the world.
I fear no one here could be as much of a man as your good self Karl. You are a shining example to all and reading your fact laden and cleverly argued prose gives me real satisfaction.
Anyway whether Martin McG was compromised or not what could the reasons be for airing this particular allegation at this particular time?
Is the motivation political (reducing Sinn Fein’s clout, surely still a British intelligence priority) or does MI have more personal motivations?
Educated guesses only please.
The assumption in this new leadership argument is that such a leadership exists. A large part of the problems of both the SDLP and UUP is that they had no strategy in place for replacing their ageing members. To be honest, I’m not sure PSF is doing too good a job of this. Murphy is I’d say in his 40s (and I’ve never thought him baggage free) and Mary Lou a lightweight, never mind someone like Catriona Ruane and some of the other MLAs. Eloquent people like Eoin O Broin seem to be in the wrong place – he stopped being an elected councillor to work in their international department, and some of their younger people seem to have dropped off the radar in the south. As for the DUP, the young fella who’d been hand picked to carry the flag for the next generation turns out to have been a bad bet. Robinson, Dodds, Adams, McGuiness et al have another ten to fifteen years in them minimum, so it’s a moot point anyway I’d say.
“A young, dynamic, honest looking, consumer friendly, Connor Murphy fits the bill of the new 21st century dynamic young leader of Sinn Fein”
It will very probably be Mary Lou McDonald that leads Sinn Fein next. She will be a TD in Dublin within 12 months and she is already the National Chair.
bad news for mcguinness that people are already openly talking about his replacement!! lol
The ten, fifteen years vote of confidence sounds like a pre-curser to mass resignation of the old guard.
Hi,
Belfast Telegraph Home > News > Opinion
Shadowy world
By Gail Walker
30 May 2006
Can it really have come as a surprise to the republican movement that
the MI6 agent operating at a high-level in their ranks has been named
as Martin McGuinness?
I don’t think so.
After all, those creatures known for years as the republicans’ best
friends – the dogs in the street – have heard that rumour circulating
for some time.
The fact it has now come into the open will have actually come as a
relief.
The man once described by Alan Partridge as “a clown without the
make-up on”, but who was never by any stretch of the imagination a
clown, now appears even less amusing.
Everyone knew there was a high-ranking spy. It was accepted. It was
intimated at the time of the late Denis Donaldson’s unmasking that he
had been sacrificed by his securocrat handlers to protect the real Deep
Throat – just as Freddie Scappaticci had been outed earlier.
Now it can at least be dealt with in the traditional way: Deny. Deny.
Deny.
(Though I hardly think Martin will be paraded by Gerry Adams in front
of TV crews with a solicitor to rubbish the allegations. Been there
before, with Freddie, and it didn’t work.)
But the Brits can always be accused of ‘dirty tricks’ (with some
justification, it must be said) – dark forces in British intelligence
attempting to de-rail the Peace Process, sullying the good name of a
Hero of the Revolution, trying to split the Movement. Or ‘movements’.
Problem is, all the arguments SF have mustered over the years to
protect McGuinness from the accusation that he was a member of the IRA
only appear to fuel the suspicion now that he was a double agent.
The security forces never had evidence that he was even a member of the
IRA. He never did time for membership in Northern Ireland. Was never
formally connected with any murder, bombing, kidnap, robbery, or
anything more serious than scowling.
Clean as a whistle, in fact.
How could that be? Especially when everyone knew exactly how lofty his
position was within the paramilitary group.
Republicans have made much of alleged collusion between the security
forces and loyalist murderers. But they have been less sprightly when
it comes to exposing collusion between the security forces and their
very own republican murderers.
In all the agonising about Scappaticci, Donaldson and now McGuinness,
republicans seem reluctant to accept that many of those dreadful,
vicious massacres which were meant to be absolutely necessary to free
Ireland may have been managed by MI5.
And that Sinn Féin’s electoral success was bought at the price of
selling out – in some cases, killing – IRA comrades, practically one by
one.
Whatever the reality, there’s no going back now from the implications
of the weekend’s allegations.
Even five years ago, such suspicions about McGuinness would have been
laughed out of the newsrooms of Ireland, let alone out of the front
rooms of SF voters.
But not now. Not after the long list of confirmed informers and agents
and the roster of horrible murders – including those of IRA men by IRA
men – carried out simply to cover the backsides of those higher up.
No doubt further allegations will be made. And there will be further
denials, ever more frantic and more unbelievable. Because this time,
with Martin, it’s the End Game. It would really mean that everything
was for nothing.
Everything. And everything has been a lie.
Everything.
If these suspicions about one of the two main men in charge of SF for
20 years take root in republicanism, then it really is Game Over.
For good.
Never met the lady but she certainly puts the story into perspective.
poor lamb,
The fact is that the subject of the future leadership of Sinn Fein is a regular topic on this and other boards. It’s generally appreciated for instance, that the emergence of genuine 32-county politics will require that any future leadership will be Southern based.
Sorry, plenty of aspiring fiction novelists, even a few dour-faced Unionists/Loyalists ready to crack a smile.
Still no proof!
Dublin SF supporter,
Can you really have a person as party leader who started off in FF? I doubt it personally. It would stick in a lot of craws.
Hi,
Quote.Still no proof!
LOL
Yeah, I can’t see Mary Lou being accepted by the party – comfortable upbringing away from the war-zone? Not taking the piss but if I was a SF supporter from South Armagh, North, West Belfast, East Tyrone etc how could i feel even remotely secure thinking she could empathise with what I had been through.
I don’t know much about Eoin o’Brien but he seemed very articulate and intelligent, cogniscent of the fact unionists had some justifiable concerns. The Sinners need to get him back from Europe, where he serves no discernible purpose.
Failing that though I thought Conor Murphy is alright. I have heard Pearse Doherty’s name mentions but don’t know much about him (and at the mo he has a fairly low profile).
Hello Martin, welcome back. Assuming your correct about all of this (for the sake of argument I mean), does that mean that MI6 instigated the murder of Patsy Gillespie? What else did they instigate?
“if I was a SF supporter from South Armagh, North, West Belfast, East Tyrone etc how could i feel even remotely secure thinking she could empathise with what I had been through”
Well lets not forget that Sinn Fein need to expand beyond such areas.
Already this leadership is gone!!
This debate occoured after the Donaldson affair right here on slugger. The general thrust of the argument was that SF would always be at the mercy of securicrats with this old guard leadership. The only way to get the DUP to work with SF is to entirely replace the present leadership with a new younger dynamic leadership, but with the old guard will go loyalty. There would never be the same loyalty to SF with a different leadership IMO.
”It’s time to go” takes on a whole new meaning now.
As for Martin Mcg and scap, there is such a thing as karma, what goes around comes around.
“This debate occoured after the Donaldson affair right here on slugger. The general thrust of the argument was that SF would always be at the mercy of securicrats with this old guard leadership. The only way to get the DUP to work with SF is to entirely replace the present leadership with a new younger dynamic leadership,”
I agree and this is where Mary Lou McDonald would fit in perfectly. She will lead Sinn Fein in the Dail from 2007 and she has already taken over from Mitchell McLaughlin as party chair.
This Martin Ingram chap claims to have the inside track????
Well perhaps he can convince those with the stolen Vermeer painting from Boston, (deposited in Ireland by Whitey Bulger before he was ordered out of Ireland)to place it in a confession box to be discovered by authorities and returned to Boston, U.S.A.
The Irish Authorities blocked the recovery of the Vermeer in Dublin 2002, letting “sleeping dogs lie”
Not only will Irish Republicans recieve credit but will also enjoy the graciouis thanks of Irish America.
I can say with authority that Irish Republicans HAVE NOT, and ARE NOT involved in any way with the theft, or subsequent handling of the paintings from the Gardner art heist, Boston St Patricks Day 1990, but they do possess the ability to reach out and influence those with the Vermeer.
This is the concensus of all authorities trying to recover the Gardner art, including Vermeer’s “The Concert”
All experts on art theft agree the Vermeer is in Ireland.
This backed up by various public media articles and already in the public domain.
I am a private individual trying to recover the Vermeer in memory of Harold Smith.
MI5 and MI6. Were they operating to different agendas? I’d have thought MI6 would have been more interested in easing NI out of the UK and therefore a sort of natural ally of the rather gormless Comical Marty.
Mary Lou lacks the gravitas to be a party leader. I can’t even see the Cavan/Monaghan FF bank manager making way for the FF TCD Dubliner in the Dáil. She’s icing on the cake, but not the cake itself.
I don’t buy the DUP doing a deal with the younger people only. Look at Gregory Campbell on McGuinness. He said the party as a whole is lonked to criminality, so changing the faces won’t matter. Once the DUP feel able to say to their electorate with no danger of being outflanked that PSF is clean, it won’t matter whose in charge in the stampede for ministerial office.
PSF does neeed to expland from the traditional areas, but the notion that the south will take over is nonsense. perhaps a southern leader, but a party that is the biggest nationalist party in the north, and a minor player in the south, will automatically be weighted in a northern direction.
On top of this, the military wing will to continue to control the political so no more embarassing motions on abortion, coalitions etc are passed.
“Mary Lou lacks the gravitas to be a party leader. I can’t even see the Cavan/Monaghan FF bank manager making way for the FF TCD Dubliner in the Dáil. She’s icing on the cake, but not the cake itself.”
Nonsense. Mary Lou is very well qualified with a degree from TCD and well experienced with her time as an MEP and her previous career in public policy. She is clearly very intelligent and does not lack the gravitas to be Sinn Fein president. She will undoubtedly lead Sinn Fein in the Dail in a short time. She has already replaced Mitchell McLaughlin as party chair.
The DUP is more in danger of being outflanked by London and Dublin; the Sinner parapoliticians need only sit on their hands – unless their popularity plummets in the south.
Dub SF Supporter,
I guess we’ll have to disagree on Mary Lou. Surely though her replacement of Mc Laughlin as chair is due to the desire to promote her chances of being elected rather than any intrinsic quality of hers as potential leadership material.
A party under marylou won’t take in the north. People in nationalist areas will ask who is she? We don’t know her up here, it’s like Catriona Ruane in the down constituency, she got in, but there is a lot of resentment against her, especially after the donaldson affair. She was known in northern circles due to her involvement in colombia, where she did do a good job PR wise. BUT mary lou, never. De Brun, did reasonably alright, but she lives in Stockmans near west belfast, and works here, altho in Europe at present. Infact her house got hit with ball bearings as did fra mc canns etc.
NO a southern SF with a southern leadership, with its base in the north, thats unworkable.
People
This talk of a new Sinn Féin leadership is premature in the extreme, there won’t be a vacancy for a long time yet.
I have said before however that I doubt if Mary Lou will be that new leader, more likely it will be someone like Conor Murphy.
A lot can change between now and then so let’s jusr stick with reality for a change.
Dub SF Supporter.
The fact that Mary Lou has a degree does not make her leadership material, this is no slight on Mary Lou but Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness didn’t have degrees.
That is a dangerous type of middle-class thinking that has no place in the party.
Mary Lou, when she is elected to the Dáil will not be replacing COC as Group leader.
As for Ingrams allegations, they aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.
‘As for Ingrams allegations they are not worth the paper they are printed on.’
How do you know Chris? How do you know there is not more to come. According to Brian Rowan there are other journalists with stuff to print.
Where was Gerry kelly and Gerry Adams today? Why weren’t they with martin mcguinness??
Did they not want to be seen with him?
Do you know for sure, and can you say absolutely categorically that mcg is not dirty?
I don’t think you can. You are going on the word of mcg. He could tell you lies like he did Rose Hagerty.
So not one Slugger Republican has the courage to post anything even remotely critical of the Republican leadership. Well done sheep! Baa, baa, baa!
Chris,
I agree this is a long time off. But I don’t see where the next generation is coming from (by the time the handover takes place, Murphy might be too old). It’ll be interesting to see how far the PSF MLA team changes over the next 5 years or so as an indication of how well it is regenerating.
All this Ingram stuff reminds me of all the conspiracy writers who made a bit of money with their books exposing “Who really killed JFK”.
And there are hordes of people who will insist something must be true because they “read it in the newspaper”.
William Randolph Hearst must be having a good chuckle wherever he is.
So not one Slugger Republican has the courage to post anything even remotely critical of the Republican leadership#
If there was something to critise I would but there isn’t.
If you think I am going to buy the unsubstantiated ramblings of a fomer/current spook then you have another thing coming.
Garibaldy
But I don’t see where the next generation is coming from (by the time the handover takes place, Murphy might be too old).
We have huge numbers of young people who will be more than capable of taking the reins when the time comes.
It’ll be interesting to see how far the PSF MLA team changes over the next 5 years
It will be changing, we have more than enough capable young people who will be able to step up to the mark when the time comes.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!
Karl, how about this.
Harold Smith the now deceased, famous American art sluth,(and my mentor) personaly asked, by phone, Martin Ferris to try and help facilitate the return of the stolen Gardner art in 2003.
Martin Ferris was very gracious in his offer to try and see what he could find out about the Gardner art.
Martin Ferris came back with the answer: “The Vermeer is in Ireland but I cannot do anything about it at this time, it is a delecate subject (2003)if I can do anything in the future I will contact you” (Harold Smith)
Unfortunatly Martin Ferris never conracted Harold Smith before Mr Smith died Feb 2005.
My critisim of the current Republican leadership is they have not afforded Irish America the thanks for their support over the years by facilitating the safe return of the Boston Vermeer.
The influence Irish Republicans have within underworld circles is well documented and by facilitating the return of the Vermeer, Irish Republicans can demonstrate their committment to the peace process and the rule of law.
No one is asking for arrests, (the statute of limitations expired many years ago) all that is asked is the Vermeer goes home via a confession box.
This subject is being talked about among the Washington Belway and will be a constant “stone in the shoe for the Americans”
So, let the undoubted influence of Irish Republicans be used for good by returning a much missed priceless work of art to Boston, and by this gesture recieving a “chip” for the big table along side the Americans.
Chris,
Fair enough. We’ll see what happens on the changes. The thing on not fixing it if it ain’t broke is fine, but I’m not sure that all the MLA’s (and I’m thinking of a few from Belfast here, and one or two from elsewhere) come into that category. Having young people floating about is fine, but it’s a matter of getting them to the forefront at the right time.
I’m not saying that Mary Lou having a degree is the factor behind her leadership potential, it nonethless is an indicator that she has a good training and is no lightweight.
I would say that Mary Lou certainly has the edge over Connor Murphy who although solid enough is to be honest not nearly as good on TV and a bit bland at times.
I also think that being in the Dail is a big advantage and I think Chris Gaskin is wrong when he says Mary Lou will not be leader in the Dail.
She will.
Having young people floating about is fine, but it’s a matter of getting them to the forefront at the right time.
Agreed and it is something that the leadership have taken on board.
Hilarious – ‘If there was something to critise I would but there isn’t’ – you couldn’t make it up. Truth to tell, Provettes actually have I.T.W.S.C tattooed on their right hand’s knuckles, and I.W.B.T.I. on their left. Let this then stand as testimony to the sheer courage of Slugger’s Republicans: If there was something to criticise, I would, but there isn’t. Sounds just as good in the original Russian too. And positively musical in its German version. Doesn’t it sound a like Mel Brooks lyric to-be? “If there-a was something to crit-a-size”, you could easily see a stage Mafia hoodlum trilling in his next musical, “I-a would, but-a there isn’t, so I WON’T!”.
Mary Lou has been put to the fore at about the right time. She does seem to me to represent leadership quality. By the time the leadership election comes round, which as Chris says is not for a few years yet, Mary Lou will be in a really strong position, with her position and experience by that time in the Dail.
it nonethless is an indicator that she has a good training and is no lightweight
No it isn’t, being a leader in the Republican movement does not rely upon a degree. A degree doesn’t show anything other than you went to college and got blocked for a couple of years
(and this is coming from a student who has just finished a 3 year law degree)
I would say that Mary Lou certainly has the edge over Connor Murphy who although solid enough is to be honest not nearly as good on TV and a bit bland at times.
That is not how the grass roots and party membership at large view the situtation.
I also think that being in the Dail is a big advantage
You are assuming that by that stage our MP’s will not be granted speaking rights in the Dáil.
I think Chris Gaskin is wrong when he says Mary Lou will not be leader in the Dail.
I am not wrong, just wait and see
Karl
Are you drunk?
Thank you for asking, but no. Back to you: ever had a critical thought about Gerry or Marty McG? Go on, become a man.
Let whoever stand, then support can be put to the test.
How was the document procured by ‘Ingram’ and how did ‘Ingram’ confirm the coded agent’s identity?
Stolen by, or fed to him for circulation? What is the reliability of a second hand identification passed on by a British FRU operator?
I think if anyone is an agent involved in collusion they should be exposed, so will Ingram come clean as a much hyped ‘whistleblower’ – tell all?
Or will he continue playing his masters’ tune, sliding between fact, fiction and half-truths.
A lot of wishful thinking about the desired effect on the repulican movement, how many touts will the British sell out trying to acheive that effect, and who will profit most in the long run?
Any English Language scholars out there who would care to comment on the similarities between Karl Rove’s and martin Ingram’s prose.
ever had a critical thought about Gerry or Marty McG? Go on, become a man.
How does having critical thoughts about Gerry or Martin make me a man?
Maybe ‘critical thoughts’ was a euphemism?
Turbo Paul said:
Senior current leaders can play an advisory role, but leave the direct talks to those with “New” vigor to argue their cause with youthful passion.
A romantic notion maybe, but if successful a beacon of hope to hold up to the world.
Posted by Turbo Paul on May 30, 2006 @ 08:44 PM
You’re not the republican Paul Berry are you?
…sorry, couldn’t resist.
Oh, and when I read Karl’s posts, all I could think of was Stewie from Family Guy.
all I could think of gonzo was Mrs. Doyle-
ah go on go on
To be sure of a fact is to know something is 100% accurate.
One cannot be more than 100% sure it is just not possible.
Therefore Martin was wrong in his statement that he was 1,000,000% sure, is it therefore not possible that he is also wrong in his declaration of innocence?
A ‘fact’ in this sense, is an objective and verifiable observation.
The is a subjective and unverifiable assertion.
‘Ingram’ may suggest how his assertions may be verified, objectively.
Mary Lou: Sinn Fein boss in the “Dail”. Sinn Fein should merge with Labour or some other Free State party. It has no future as a radical party. The “criminal” element – ie the pre GFA IRA element – wil lbe flushed out asm ore criminality and more MI6 dealings emerge. Same thing happened to SFWP. I wonder how Sean $100 Garland and Tomas MacGiolla felt to see their hard work go into the Labour Party.
YES Gonzo, Rove=Stewie…however, the cartoon, toddler knows when to let a point drop.
Which is Whichwho, whom?
Meanwhile, Slugger’s equivalent to Big Brother is well under way: who will be the first Provette in the House of O’Toole to break cover and actually [gasps] dare to disagree with Marty McG? Stay tuned!