New York’s GAA dilemma…
Interesting times for New York’s successful hurlers. So successfull that they’ve made it to the Ulster final in Belfast on 4th June. Except, the New York board are requesting a postponement and change of venue since up to half the playing panel, were they to travel outside the US, would possibly not be allowed back in again. Several Irish Americans are already charged with encouraging New York Gaelic football player, Shane Lawlor, aka Shane Russell, to come into the US illegally.
God be with the days….
There was a time, and not so long ago, when getting yourself legal in the States was nothing more than one of the options to be considered.
I remember a family in Woodlawn where the parents only considered citizenship when the oldest daughter wanted to get married in Ireland. Up to this point, they had lived, worked, bought a house, paid taxes, sent kids to school and college and being legal hadnt been an issue.
Obviously 9/11 has been the denominator here, although there has always been a low level conversation about illegals, but more particularly if they were Hispanic. The Irish really always felt that they were above such minor details.
For myself, I never had to worry about it, although I did get married once to let someone have a Green Card. What can I say, it was in my young and reckless days.
This is a continuation of a wake up call that living and breeding in a country comes with the responsibility of ensuring you have a right to be there. That right is not conferred because your ancestors built the raliways.
Agreed, missfitz – on the ensuring the right to be in a country.
There’s also the argument that the GAA needs to take a good look at itself.. and start ensuring that only eligible players are taking part in, at least, county level games.
It’s a very complicated issue. But as it’s a one-off, unprecedented success, surely the GAA can stump up to send Antrim to New York. It’s a great opportunity to boost the games amongst the exiles left out there.
I could be wrong Pete but I don’t think citizenship is a necessary pre-requisite (in Ireland or the US) to play gaelic games.
There’s also the argument that the GAA needs to take a good look at itself.. and start ensuring that only eligible players are taking part in, at least, county level games.
How so, Pete? Production and official verification of documents in the changing rooms? This issue certainly isn’t limited to the GAA. A few years ago Derby County signed an Argentinian player with a Spanish passport (Esteban Fuertes) who made several starts in the Premiership. However after a mid-season break with the club in France he was refused re-enty to the UK as his Spanish passport was a forgery. Consequently he was sold to a French club. Similar instances occur every year in the Italian league.
When was it decided that New York was part of Ulster (and London also?)? I must’ve missed that meeting. Is it because Ulster hurling is in the doldrums and no other province would ever have countenanced such a move? The whole thing is farcical.
Daisy,
“Is it because Ulster hurling is in the doldrums and no other province would ever have countenanced such a move?…”
I’m certainly not against having London and NY in the Ulster Champs (e.g. London are a reasonably good Div Two team and have more all-Irelands than the province of Ulster put together!).
I’m much more concerned and exasperated by the repeated failure of the other Ulster counties to even drag together 15 guys to take part in the USHC! Tyrone, Armagh, Donegal etc….where are you?
missfitz,
It seems to me that you obviously aren’t of or familiar with the younger Irish emigrant generation because you appear to be completely ignorant of their views.
They are doing what illegals have always done, living with the realities of the situation.
All they are saying is that they won’t be coming home for the match because they can’t. I don’t know one person who believes they are “above such minor details”.
You are the one who has read this view into the situation.
For them it means not being able to go home when the can where 30-150 years ago, they either didn’t want to our couldn’t afford to.
There was a similar problem last year, with some of the layers from the err..”Sinn Fein” GAA club in Melbourne
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/10/17/story953343694.asp
A telling quote in the Irish Times -
Head.. say hello to sand..
And on the illegal status issue -
Not by the GAA it would seem…
So what, if you don’t produce a passport at training your excluded from Gaelic games?
How is the GAA not showing respect for US immigration law Pete?
At a time when many GAA clubs in New York, i think the GAA should move the game to the States, and make it a major occasion for the Irish in America. I think it would be a fantastic shot in the arm for the games in the States.
George
The NY GAA board are, tacitly, admitting that many of the players have entered the US illegally.
Rather than deal with the issue they are instead seeking to facilitate the avoidance of the implications for those players of their disregard for US immigration law.
Bringing the Ulster Hurling final to New York is a great idea
Although different circumstances prevail, if the GAA can bring the All Ireland football final to New York as they did in 1947 they can do this now for the exiles.
Also – on a related theme – why not provide reciprocol Irish visas to Irish Americans in exchange for American visas to Irish People.
I know of many Irish Americans who have trouble obtaining visas to work and live here.
Piebald
Pete Baker
NY GAA was set up and continues to be a bridge from the past to the present. It is through our games that we are able to keep a link to our culture.
It is also a support structure to help guys find jobs and a place to live. Importantly, the NY GAA have been pro active in liaising with US Immigration and providing local lads with information on the immigration process, and have be actively canvassing congress to introduce the guest worker program. (A US immigration officer has be assigned to team up with the Irish institutions)
Lastly, NY want to field their best team who will represent the players playing in their league, and that’s who took the field against Derry. The Gaa have funded All Star trips all around the globe to promote the game with meaningless games, now is the time for them to put their money where there mouth is, and promote the GAA with an Ulster Final in the big apple.
Pete,
the GAA is an amateur sporting organisation, not the INS.
If they were employing illegals, like lets say the British Home Office has with cleaners (breaking British immigration law), then I would say they are disregarding US immigration law.
But to say they are disregarding US immigration law by not asking people what their immigration status is before deciding whether they can play an amateur sport really is stretching it.
George
Read my earlier comment again.. having tacitly admitted that many of their players entered the US illegally, the NY GAA are now seeking to facilitate the avoidance of the legal implications for those players of disregarding US immigration law.
O Donnell
“..the NY GAA have been pro active in liaising with US Immigration and providing local lads with information on the immigration process..”
They’re clearly being very successful in that endeavour..
I’ma abit worried for these las either way. Isn’t there a worry that a high-profile event, especially staged so illegals in America could play ‘in America’ might just attract a little attention for the US immigration authorities? Just a thought.
Pete,
“the NY GAA are now seeking to facilitate the avoidance of the legal implications for those players of disregarding US immigration law.”
The GAA says some of its team won’t travel. That is an accurate description of a situation not an attempt at facilitating the avoidance of the legal implications.
If they said they would smuggle them back in, for example, that would be facilitating.
Nothing the GAA is doing will facilitate the avoidance of legal implications for these people.
Pete, your holier-than-thou attitude on this really surprises me. US immigration is far from a clear-cut area, and a lot of people who have contributed to that country’s economy are being punished as a result of political whims.
Perhaps you could focus on the feel-good sporting aspect of this story? The NY GAA deserves a moment in the sun.
George
While no doubt of interest to some, I’ll not engage in a discussion on degrees of culpability.. but I will point out that what you’ve suggested, if followed through on, would amount to the GAA actively breaking the law. Hence my use of the phrase “seeking to facilitate the avoidance of the legal implications” in this instance.
Aaron
My “holier-than-thou attitude” on this stems from a very simple belief that no-one should be above the law.. neither anointed sportsmen nor Secretaries of State.
Pete,
the GAA saying players won’t turn up isn’t so can we play it somewhere else isn’t “seeking to facilitate the avoidance of the legal implications”.
There are no legal implications even if they did travel. Their legal position would be the exact same. The only difference would be that they would be in Ulster and not New York.
What you seem to want is for an amateur sporting organization to take action against its own members because of their legal status.
Should we be asking the thousands foreign children in the schools of Ireland to show their residency permits before letting them pick up a hurley?
George
That’s a strawman.. and you probably know it.
The NY GAA are saying the players won’t travel because they’ll not be allowed back into the US because they are currently there illegally.
And we’re not talking about excluding people from playing Gaelic games.. we’re talking about an inter-county championship.
The NY GAA are no more responsible for the immigration status of these players than they are if they have parking tickets. Unless they are being illegally employed by the GAA or something like that, the GAA have nothing to be ashamed of.
Pete
Actually they are being successful, Senator McCain and Kennedy are championing a bill to grant illagals guest worker status, which George W is pushing for too. The big problem here is that another bill wants to classify the undocumented workers as felons, in the same class as murders, which is the big debate over here.
In the case undocument workers, there are 11 million such workers in the the states. That’s what the real political problem is at the moment.
Getting back to the match, it should be played in NY
The game should be played where it was originally planned to be played. If that was in Casement, so be it. If New York get to the quarters or semis, will they demand that those games are switched to Gaelic Park too?
Ridiculous.
I would have thought the Ulster final should be played somewhere in Ulster.
Aaron: “Pete, your holier-than-thou attitude on this really surprises me. US immigration is far from a clear-cut area, and a lot of people who have contributed to that country’s economy are being punished as a result of political whims.”
Actually, US Immigration is painfully clear-cut. It just that, given, what, thousands of miles of land borders and thousands more of shore, its impossible to control them all, all the time. As for “contributing to the (U.S.) economy,” I think you will find that it depends on the state the scofflaw lives in. Those states that rely upon sales taxes have less to complain than those that rely upon wage taxes. As such, they are a drain on a number of federal level programs, not to mention state-level aid programs. On the net, my suspicioun (and its no more than that, although its a well-founded suspicioun) is that these scofflaws are a net drain on the U.S. economy.
The reason that there is a crack-down is not a matter of political whim, it is that its not only Irish and Mexicans being caught at the border, but Iranians and Saudis trying to slip in unnoticed. Given recent unpleasentnesses, there is a suspicioun they may not be trying to get low-wage positions as day laborers, but may have some other ideas. The other matter is the depressing effect they have on some wages. Prior to widely available “undocumented” day-labor, skilled trades – carpenters, wall-board workers, etc, made a good living. Today, not so much.
So how many games did they have to play before getting into the final?
Where were these games played?
Is it not unfair to let one team play all its games at home?
Surely other teams won’t be able to bring their full strength? like the NI football team is currently touring with a weaker side than normal
I see the NY’s fellow American Gaels in Chicago have been doing their bit against Irish understanding, harmony, mutual friendship and unity in the past few days.
Howard Wells was truly shocked by all accounts.
Aontroim should go to New York and have the PSNI v NYPD as a curtain raiser.
Dread Cthulhu on May 23, 2006 @ 04:12 PM wrote…”Actually, US Immigration is painfully clear-cut….” Mightn’t the Federal Govts substantial expenses on illegal immigrant hunting be better spent on searching for criminal immigrants as a priority rather than face saving cases which will be highlighted in the media? Start by clearing out the illegal immig criminals in prison and their financial drain on the economy. No they won’t just come back over a border if they’re locked up over there (assisted with per criminal capita funding). When the media hungry politicians have this sorted then they should look at non criminal immigs – ‘net blogs will be obsolete by then.
“…these scofflaws are a net drain on the U.S. economy.” As that comment is unsupported than all I need to say is that you’re talking thro your hat. Immigrants bring more to a society that mere financials (even tho’ my estimates would be that illegals are a net fiscal benefit). All you need to do is tour the southern states of the US and experience the Mexican culture of the illegals and those of immigrant origin and compare this with the Bush-ites of Connecticut and/or Maine and/or Texas. Have you ever been to Miami to experience Cuban culture?
“…The other matter is the depressing effect they have on some wages…” Strong unions such as the mentioned carpenters etc will maintain wage levels which shouldn’t suffer from scape-goat illegal bogeymen. However strong blue collar unions which are not corrupt in the USA can be as rare as chicken teeth.
Glen Taisie – yours is def the post of the day. LOL.
Realist on May 23, 2006 @ 05:30 PM wrote “I see the NY’s fellow American Gaels in Chicago…
Howard Wells was truly shocked by all accounts. “
How did anyone in Chicago find out that OWC were playing in the Windy City…there didn’t seem to be much advance notification that they were coming Stateside? I believe there was hardly a green shirt compared to Uraguay’s light blue in Giants Stadium at the weekend.
Will the new chat U – R – A – Gay be reviewed by FIFA in light of the latest UEFA ruling re rangers that reprehensible behaviour tolerated by society has to be accepted by footballs governing bodies
that of course should read…”Will the new chant U – R – A – Gay be reviewed…”
Anonymous: “Mightn’t the Federal Govts substantial expenses on illegal immigrant hunting be better spent on searching for criminal immigrants as a priority rather than face saving cases which will be highlighted in the media? ”
It might, but I doubt it. First of all, until they commit a second crime (either first being crossing the border illegally) and get caught, there is no way to seperate the sheep from the goats. Additionally, why should the American tax-payer spring for their healthcare, their education, etc.
Anonymous: “Start by clearing out the illegal immig criminals in prison and their financial drain on the economy. No they won’t just come back over a border if they’re locked up over there ”
Assumes facts not in evidence (that their home country would lock them up). Some nations are far better than others on this front.
Anonymous: “As that comment is unsupported than all I need to say is that you’re talking thro your hat.”
Seeing as your contention they are net contributors is equally unsupported, all I need to say is you’re talking through your fourth point of contact. For starters, there is the small matter of disparate impact — California is far worse impacted than, say, Texas — a result of differing tax schemes. There is the cost of educating their children, providing healthcare — its gotten so bad in some areas that hospitals are closing emergency rooms — too many unpaid bills / claims, and housing the more criminally minded among their number.
Anonymous: “All you need to do is tour the southern states of the US and experience the Mexican culture of the illegals and those of immigrant origin and compare this with the Bush-ites of Connecticut and/or Maine and/or Texas. Have you ever been to Miami to experience Cuban culture? ”
Ah, yes, their “culture”… anchor babies, crowded houses, sports in the streets until four in the morning, children begging in the streets… been there, done that, got the over-priced t-shirt.
Oddly enough, the illegal population has drifted as far as Connecticut — Danbury, CT, has reported problems ranging from people turning single family houses into military barracks-style hostels charging $5 per head per night, resulting in the predictable ancilliary difficulties.
Lastly, those Cubans in Miami are all legal immigrants — definitionally. Its strange bit of policy, but Cubans get different treatment from the rest of the Carribean states.
Anonymous: “Strong unions such as the mentioned carpenters etc will maintain wage levels which shouldn’t suffer from scape-goat illegal bogeymen. However strong blue collar unions which are not corrupt in the USA can be as rare as chicken teeth. ”
Its not scape-goating if its the truth, as much as you might not like it to be. Unless the contractor is doing business in a union “owned” city, a lot of the job is done by illegals. Such places as Home Depot have gone so far as to accommodate these scofflaws, creating places for the fellows to hang about, waiting for citizen scofflaws to hire them.
Im assuming after all this exposure, that the US immigration service will be targeting all Gaelic games….. sounds like they will certainly make their monthly quotas ?
If they need to make their monthly quota they’d just raid the Irish pubs in South Boston.
Declan writes:
London are a reasonably good Div Two team and have more all-Irelands than the province of Ulster put together.
if you don’t know your stuff don’t go quoting statistics. you are very wrong on this one.
If New York want to enter the Ulster Hurling Cahampionship good luck to them, but they are aware of the rules, the fixture timetable and the venue for the final well in advance. when the played and own thier semi final in New York at the weekend i guess they knew that would lead to a final.
Visa for living in the US are not a GAA issue and certainly not an Ulster Hurling issue. If New York don;t show up in Casement on 4th June they should be thrown out.
Blame Ted Kennedy who in 1984(i think) introduced a bill that took away the preference in immigration given to Irish and British immigrants.
I see that the game is going ahead in Casement.
I think many of the posters here have missed part of the point, and I want to go back and say that Pete has had it on the money.
There’s keeping the law and breaking the law.
If you go to America and work illegally, its not a cute thing that Irish people do, its illegal. Thats one of the reasons people are called illegal.
If you apply for a green card, or other legitimate form of visa, thats legal. You tend not to get into trouble that way.
For OC, who says that the GAA in NY have no reseponsibilty over this, I disagree. There is stiff competition among the clubs, and to this day they try to induce players to come over and play for the club or county in return for board lodging and a job on a building site or similar.
To the poster who thought things were different today because people could not get home in days gone by, I beg to differ. Things havent changed in that respect, but a culture of acceptability of this soft crime has grown.
I accept its a bitch when personal preference meets head on with legal requirement, but thats the way our world works.And it is personal preference now as opposed to economic neccesity or asylum.
There’s no excuse for the illegals in the States, just excuses
“How did anyone in Chicago find out that OWC were playing in the Windy City…there didn’t seem to be much advance notification that they were coming Stateside? I believe there was hardly a green shirt compared to Uraguay’s light blue in Giants Stadium at the weekend.”
Anonymous,
I watched the game on Uruguayan TV, and Northern Ireland were well represented and made a lot of noise. In the region of 100 supporters travelled from home, and they were joined by many ex pats.
The total crowd was only 4,000 odd.
The tour was only notified at short notice and I believe that it has not been well publicised at all Stateside.
No excuses for the shameful bigotry displayed by certain Chicago Gaels…these are people whom I presume support the notion of a United Ireland. They’ve a funny way of showing it.
Dread Cthulhu on May 23, 2006 @ 10:21 PM wrote “until they commit a second crime…” sorry but you seem to have mis interpreted what I’d written. There are numberous illegals in prison in the USA for a variety of crimes. These should be repatriated first. “…American tax-payer spring for their healthcare, their education, etc. “ I think you should have written the minimum of health care and educa as state supported versions of these are so poor that anyone with any cash has private hea;th and sends the children to private schools. Should the govt tackle the proor equality but expensive public health and educ rather than just blame the illegals for the poor service.
“Assumes facts not in evidence (that their home country would lock them up). Some nations are far better than others on this front….”I addressed that with ‘(assisted with per criminal capita funding)’ although you like me to add monitoring although I thought that could be assumed.
“…all I need to say is you’re talking through your fourth point of contact….” I think my posting was merely to show you were initiating unsupported opinion; you’ve highlighted your lack of reference again.
“For starters…and housing the more criminally minded among their number. “ again can I point out that Fed Govt might address the issue of poor return on invest from these depts. Rather than bitch to the media and rabble rousers about the illegal immigrants
“Ah, yes, their “culture”…” WOoow, don’t you like the rabid right wing theories of the Rep party or are you a David Duke voter? I won’t comment on the rest of your posting as it’s just plain, generalizing, moronic, bordering-on-racism, crap.
“…as Connecticut” Hartford was always a shit hole
“…—Danbury, CT, has reported problems…” those god damn gardeners. I wish the perfectly manicured lawns didn’t need to be maintained and therefore we could throw all those people darker than me out of the state.!??!
”… the predictable ancilliary difficulties…” and I thought the demand of drugs in Conn. was maintained by the Kennedy offspring?!?!
“Its strange bit of policy,…” like it’s the first time the US Dep of Immig had a screwed up policy? I’d be surprised if they had a policy that wasn’t screwed up.
“Its not scape-goating if its the truth, as much as you might not like it to be….” Again you come out with unsupported generalizations and yet blame me for not accepting your opinion.
“…a union “owned” city…” no such thing. You are displaing your ignorance of the construction indust in USA.
”…a lot of the job is done by illegals…” not disputed and usually a damn fine job done too.
“Such places as Home Depot have gone so far as to…” provide nice areas for people to get in out of the rain.
There’s plenty of laws broken in the USA from the Prez down to an illegal. Lets work on this in a priortised manner rather than feeding the prejudices and attack the weak or disinfrancised for the sake of vote and/or media satisfaction.
Realist on May 24, 2006 @ 09:29 AM “…The tour was only notified at short notice and I believe that it has not been well publicised at all Stateside. “ that was my point. Why?
“ No excuses for the shameful bigotry displayed by certain Chicago Gaels…these are people whom I presume support the notion of a United Ireland. They’ve a funny way of showing it. “ I’ve searched but can’t find to what you’re referring. Any chance you might post your opinion of the new OWC homophobic chant or what might be FIFA’s action on said chant?
missfitz on May 24, 2006 @ 08:54 AM wrote ”There’s no excuse for the illegals in the States, just excuses” nice pithy little line but a total load of bollocks. Illegals, whether they be Irish in the USA or not, are a fact of life. Self proclaimed wits and opinion blog posters are not living a life but posting like geeks on the ‘net. You should get out more often.
I see that the Irish newspapers ran big articles about illegals coming over the Canada borders into USA last week…guess what it was a media hype. A few couriers and the papers and Fed’s made it seem like the sky was falling down.
Those coming into the States are generally doing so for work or family reasons. There are pelenty of other crime the govt might tackle first before wasting the time of the border guards looking for their Irish cousins.
Anonymous
You’re right. Illegals are a part of life, like all the other people who break the law. Like muggers, rapists, robbers, thieves, prostitutes and other such breakers of the law.
What, in your opinion, makes this crime NOT a crime? Is it like black marketeering? Or insider trading?
Why is not adhering to the law of the United States of America on immigration policy not a crime?
Go on, I’m dying to know.
And your cheap insult doesnt sting, I’m known to get out at least once a month.
Anonymous,
“I’ve searched but can’t find to what you’re referring”
Blessed be the peacemakers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/i…als/5011608.stm
I would also refer you to the headlines in the Belfast Telegraph today, and to the lunchtime edition of Talkback on Radio Ulster.
“Any chance you might post your opinion of the new OWC homophobic chant or what might be FIFA’s action on said chant?”
FIFA are going to be busy in every country of the world, aren’t they?
Once they’ve dealt with homophobia around the world, they can start on anti fatism.
“What, in your opinion, makes this crime NOT a crime? ”
you are agreeing with me. It is a crime. But, and this is my point…on the greater scale of things the mentioned muggings and rapists should be dealt with first.
In the States there is a heirarchy of crimes. Humna trafficing is and should be a federal offence. Working illegally in the USA should be.
Heirarchy, heirarchy, heirarchy is my point. Comprende?
Brendan, Belfast
if you don’t know your stuff don’t go quoting statistics. you are very wrong on this one.
Not sure what you’re on about. Declan is correct – no Ulster county has ever won a senior hurling title and London have.