a Faustian pact – redux?
I was sceptical of this story when BVG mentioned it on this thread last night, and it’s still speculative, as well as being highly cyncial and highly risky for the UUP if true, but the BBC report that PUP leader David Ervine has been approached to join the UUP within the Assembly [while remaining leader of the PUP outside? - Ed] in order to secure an additional ministerial post in an executive that may not be formed for some time.. There’s currently no indication that the PUP’s Dawn Purvis will follow suit on the Policing Board Update Press Association report that the PUP have confirmed that David Ervine will join the Ulster Unionist Party Assembly Group. More Young Unionist blogger, and Slugger contributor, Michael Shilliday defends the move.
Dissent People! Vote for the Ulster Unionist Paramilitaries!!!
Has Reggie been sold a pup?
reader,
you are wrong.
Trimble agreed that all of us unionists would not go into discussions unless sfira decommissioned.
He reneged and used the pup and udp to scrape through a majority (which was required) to negotiate away our position.
Bear in mind also, that the negotiations were confined to the framework documents, – yes, the same framework docs which were rejected by the UPP,PUP,UDP,UKUP, and DUP asany basis for talks, or any parameters of same.
Now, as for prisoner releases, all they had to do was to object and NOT agree.
Simple.
Thats why they are almost dead.
AND GOOD RIDDANCE.
I wonder what her Ladyship’s view on this whole episode is. I would hardly imagine that Sylvia would have nasty people like Ervine on the invite list for one of her candlelit suppers in Donaghadee.
Yet another issue to divide the UUP. I would imagine that David Ford is probably the happiest man in Stormont today though. All those pseudo-Alliance voters that the UUP were hoping to attract are hardly going be thrilled at the political representatives of murderers and drug dealers sitting in an alliance with the UUP.
What on earth will Alex Kane’s ‘garden centre prods’ think of this one.
they think its all over…..lol
If Sylvia had any sense she would jump ship to Alliance. Could hold the seat with garden centre Unionists and Alliance support. Otherwise DUP gain next time out.
Sorry just thinking very good week for Alliance with this and Women’s Coalition winding up. But they don’t have the personalities in place, or a compelling vision, to fully gain from the opportunity and there is no other party positioned to benefit. So the largest beneficiary (as with Labour support in England) will be the stay at home brigade and that may have consequences that are difficult to predict. It will be interesting to see how Alliance position themselves, do they obtain defections etc.
IJP was quick to see the opportunity presented by Empey jumping into bed with the UV’s – check out APNI website.
crataegus, spot on the money.
Sylvia will only survive if she joined the Alliance, (hardly a big leap as they didnt stand last year to get her in), she could harness the ‘garden centre’ prods and those who value tips on how one should dress one’s salad…etc.
To whoever was speculating what would happen if both Bob McCartney and Paul Berry joined/rejoined the DUP grouping (unlikely though the scenario is):
After 3 nominations the DUP’s
34/(3+1)=8.5
beats
after 2 nominations the UUP’s
25/(2+1)=8.333
So the DUP would regain the seat they lost when Berry resigned.
I think that despite having potentially one less seat, SF will be laughing at all this. The DUP have lost a seat as just desserts for their homophobic attitude re: Berry; UUP have regained one they would have had in the first place if Donaldson etc hadn’t defected because of their refusal to take a harder line on the ‘No Guns No Government’ policy, only to regain it by cosying up to a terrorism-linked party. All of which, to this outside observer, makes Unionism as a whole look breathtakingly hypocritical not to mention highly inept.
Incidentally, if the DUP’s position on ‘UUP/UVF’ is really to be consistent with their position re: Sinn Fein, then as of now we should expect the DUP to refuse to negotiate with or even talk to members of the UUP!
Two unionist parties combine forces to gain political advantage for their supporters, to increase their influence in the assembly and to strengthen the unionist voice in Stormont. Is this a problem? Has a law been broken? At last we see unionists choosing to agree and co-operate and other unionists throw a tantrum. Hello?
Lets get real and start to make politics work constructively. Well done David Ervine and Reg.
So as long as the unionist voice is strengthened and it isn’t actually against the law, anything is justified!
Ulster Unionists and Progressive Unionists have co-operated to bolster the Unionist position within the assembly. That has to be good news for the Unionist community.
Let’s not forget that The DUP were on the verge of doing a deal with Sinn Fein not so long ago and but for a few polaroids the power sharing executive would be already up and running.
There are those who will say that they will not play ball with terrorists or terrorism and that is a fine and noble position. Or it would be if it were not also hypocritical. Did the DUP not seek to open channels for discussions with Loyalist paramilitaries in recent times about the prospects of their decommisioning.
Indeed, if it were not for the fact that I have seen Senior DUP members stand in the middle of a PUP office I would assume the very proximity of these nasty terrorist would in someway render a DUP man to dust.
And if the distaste for Progressive Unionism is so rife amounst the DUP then why am I left to ponder the invitations to PUP party members to join the DUP and why such invititions are made – I do not doubt the source of this remark on this occassion.
It is without doubt a hypocritical position the DUP take in a bid to mask the public and paint a picture of hardline opposition in the face of a deal they must be preparing to do. I only hope that the UUP/PUP group can muster enough support and maintain an influence to pick up the pieces of Unionism when the deal goes down.
F*ck the DUP, you snivelling UVF apologist – this isn’t about them. I’m a UUP member disgusted by the fact that my party is now playing footsie with scum like David Ervine. If you can’t see what’s so very wrong with that, I can only assume that you were one of the braying fools who never saw anything wrong with Trimble’s leadership either.
It is precisely that sort of hysterical language that has caused so much death and hurt in this country for years. I do not apologise for the UVF. Nor do I turn my back or close the door on my fellow Unionist who wish end the crisis of confidence in the Unionist community.
I can only assume your comments are an emotional displacement of guilt for the action or inaction you have taken in the past.
I trust you will not be playing your part in helping loyalist working class communities for fear of contamination by those who are or those who know the scum like David Ervine to which you refer.
It is not the language that upholds anti terorit standards that has caused the death. It is the bombs, bullets and battons of the likes of the UVF.
The crisis of cinfidence in the Unionist community is exacerbated by such an onslaught on what many of them hold dear.
It is some reassurenace to me to think that despite the front that so many of the UUP are putting up and trying to pass this off as a principled stand that there are a few to proclaim that the Empey had no clothes
I find it interesting that the people who know David Ervine don’t consider him ‘scum’ but find him to be a reasonable and thoughtful unionist who is genuinely committed to working for peace and prosperity for the whole community but with a particular bias toward disadvantaged working class communities.
The UUPAG (UUP & PUP) could only be justified if it delivered UVF decommissioning. If it was intended to do that then Reg & David would be on the podium right now patting each other on the back.
Of course, the dogs in the street know it has nothing to do with delivering a more peaceful NI. It has everything to do with ensuring a unionist dominated executive.
It is without doubt a squalid deal and Reg will probably believe “that’s politics folks”.
Is it? Is this what Reg thinks unionism is about – the grubby grappling for power to run a devolved administration that has no power to either weaken nor solidify the union?
There was a time (not so long ago) when unionists worried about the RC high birth rate and the prospect of becoming a minority. This danger has rescinded but in its place comes a unionist minded electorate not turning up at the polls. Add to this mix the collapsing public sector dependent economy of the north, looking south and waiting the Direct Rule axe to fall on.
Failing restoration there’ll hardly be a family in NI not adversely affected. It would be no bad thing if it cleared the way for regeneration. It won’t; enterprise will still be held back by the more favourable fiscal regime in the south.
So how has Reg strengthened the union?
With an even larger number of unionists now driven from the ballot box while watching a gathering circus in Stormont, a disregard from Westminster and an economy over the border that’s over-heating will these “garden centre unionists” mobilise for a border pole?
SF is showing a lead that isn’t going unnoticed. If their few seats can bargain for power – how much better would the British/Irish identity be able to do so?
Reg – through throwing aside principles – has presented a greater danger to the union than SF ever did. His UUPAG has no chance of nominating ministers. Neither the DUP nor the SDLP will wear it.
It’s time for a border poll. The 7 years are more than up. I don’t suggest this with any wish for a UU but recognise unionism of the DUP and UUP variety is unable to work for the benefit of the people.
A close result might just focus minds. It could be VERY close (thanks to Reg & Dave).
I find it interesting that the people who know David Ervine don’t consider him ‘scum’ but find him to be a reasonable and thoughtful unionist who is genuinely committed to working for peace and prosperity for the whole community but with a particular bias toward disadvantaged working class communities.
Oh please, spare me the ragged trousered philanthropist schtick.
For the record, I am a working class unionist,and I am an ex PUP member who is in a position to know exactly what type of person Ervine is.
I really am offended by the notion that the UVF or the PUP are in any way the voice of working class unionism.
Says who?, by what mandate?.
Working class unionist communities have been held hostage to paramilitary scum for too long, and whilst it was bad enough that the likes of the UUP turned a blind eye to that, they now turn around and join up with the bastards that have been blighting working class unionist communities?
David Ervine, like others in the PUP wouldnt know working class politics from a Royal garden party.
It wasn’t that long ago that Ervine was fawning over Camilla, gushing about how gracious she was, despite having had a rough time of it.
If your idea of working class politics is being happy that the daughter in law of a billionaire allows you to gratefully lick her arse, well then Ervine is up there with Che Guevara.
What Unionists need is real working class politics, not these posturing plastic proles.
SJK – get close to any side and you’ll normally find individuals who present well. David is one who has a charm and family tragedies that one can’t but sympathise with.
David as an individual has to be differentiated from David the politician. He represents a working class view that tries to achieve progress but he also represents the UVF. In doing so he is the political underbelly of foul sectarianism, murder, gangsterism that makes his own area a ghetto, denies it a future and – just in case – it corrupts its children.
These are the unacceptable sides of David Irvine that until Monday last the PUP were being slowly squeezed for. The PUP lost a seat and halved its representation in the Assembly at the last election.
Reg has now given them a helping hand (or so Reg says – difficult to believe when he markets the extra unionist seat on the executive as the 1st reason).
It has nothing to do with whether particular representatives are ‘likeable’. It’s what they represent that matters. The UUP are likely to learn that lesson at the next election. UUP constituency members in E. Belfast are signing off – can David supply a few tattooed gorillas to replace them?
I agree TAFKABO – working class ‘unionists’ deserve much better – and they’ve just been shafted.
Empey was ETI Minister and before that had responsibility for the economic development of Belfast in the city council for years. Just take a look at E. Belfast!
Jesus! If I could forgive SF for what they supported (and I’m just too old to do that) I’d vote for them now. In E. Belfast the UUP have benefited from an anti-DUP vote. I won’t vote for that party again – even though I did so for negative reasons.
The cops raided Reg’s offices on the suspicion of there being ‘links’ to terrorism. An informer being arrested took the Assembly down. That informer worked for the British. Who is Reg working for? The British – or himself?
Even in local politics Reg is a failure. He keeps his seat because “he’s decent” (remember the UUP campaign?) and – much as I can’t vote SF – others can’t forgive the DUP.
Some might conclude Reg has got away with murder. He has – until now. Being a complete incompetent hasn’t damaged him. As the UVF continue its business Reg’s new allies won’t be held to account. He will be.
If Reg gets elected again then unionism and terrorism will be a finished argument.
THAT could be a good thing!
UUPER – you are incorrect. I can assure you that the UUP have lost my vote (you only got it since the DUP looked like they were going to shaft you). I’ve no idea who I will now vote for – but it won’t be the UUP or DUP.
I’m sure you’ll think me no loss. Fine – that’s politics. Unfortunatlely for you guys – this criticism is just the beginning. It’s enough for me – others might require a child dying from a drug overdose, a gang rape, a Catholic pensioner murdered etc etc.
I doubt it though. I voted UUP to register a vote against the DUP. I was wrong. UUP have shafted E. Belfast whilst advancing themselves and have weakened the union.
Whatever about the score of history the last vestige of unionism representing anything decent has gone.
A unionist majority on a devolved executive has nothing to do with strengthening the union.
Pissing unionist voters off by corrupting the trust they mistakenly vested will cause a serious re-think. That re-think will be at grass-roots and Reg’s filthy little deal delivering nothing will move NI politics on. It adds an honesty that has to be faced.
Honest Reg has come out, Will unionists? Who do they vote for now – or, more importantly, what do they decide not to vote for?
TAFKABOWhat Unionists need is real working class politics, not these posturing plastic proles.
It’s not just Unionists that need proper politics.
Crataegus – fair point.
The difference here is that the UUP has signed up to terrorism, drug-dealing, criminality etc for reasons of political expediency.
The UVF, UDA, INLA, LVF – none have succeeded in getting the poorer a better deal. SF has – take a drive around the west of the city.
Can you blame the likes of Reg for dismissing the existence of an intelligent politic within working class unionism? Reg simply doesn’t give a shit about poverty within unionism. What has he done to alleviate their plight?
NOTHING!
He is representative of the interests that shaft the working people. I’m pleased he has now come clean on that.
It’s not that “decent people” need unionism. Unionism can’t now mobilise the vote it targeted. “Decent” unionists will have none of this – I hope. But, if they buy it that too will be progress.
The entirety of the UUP argument for law and order will no longer be a matter of debate. They’ll do what they get elected for – keeping the croppy down. But the DUP are doing that better.
Where is the “decent” unionist is all of this?
I guess shrubs are going to be expensive this summer – but only due to an over-supply of vegetables!
TAFKABO: “Working class unionist communities have been held hostage to paramilitary scum for too long, and whilst it was bad enough that the likes of the UUP turned a blind eye to that, they now turn around and join up with the bastards that have been blighting working class unionist communities? ”
they’re whores, TAFKABO… oops, I meant politicians, but its essentially the same thing…
all I know is this move is starting make Paisley’s band of merry marauders look like responsible grown-ups.
TAFKABO: “well then Ervine is up there with Che Guevara. ”
Two lawless butchers… its an apt comparison.
Rubicon: “I agree TAFKABO – working class ‘unionists’ deserve much better – and they’ve just been shafted. ”
The joy and pain of a democracy is that the voters always get the government they deserve. If they are going to elect those who hold them cheaply, do they deserve any better?
Rubicon: “The entirety of the UUP argument for law and order will no longer be a matter of debate. They’ll do what they get elected for – keeping the croppy down. But the DUP are doing that better. ”
The UUP’s hypocrisy stinks to high heaven. Law and Order? Don’t make me laugh — so long as that malodorous, malignent muppet Ervine travels with the UUP, like a cancerous remora on a crippled shark, how can anyone take UUP’s position on crime and terrorism?
Sir Reg has finally revealed the true soul of Unionism – UVF sectarian terrorism; its been around since the OO was formed; the Law and Order brigade – Loyalist Law and Orange Order; good enough for Craig good enough for Reggie. Good enough for Paisley good enough for Empey. Paisleyites, Empeyites, tear yourselves apart we’re in the pound seats enjoying the spectacle. Jeez how Tony would like to see the arse end of you all. Some British Province this is.
On another conflict now; who is DV – descendant of Esekiel who shopped the idealistic Presbyterian UI at Antrim in 98; the fight for good over evil started then.Think we should be told.
Dread Cthulhu – I don’t think I can disagree with you since the evidence is clearly in your favour. I wasn’t posting support for the UUP position as being one genuinely in favour of law and order.
Many UUP voters were led to believe that was what they were voting for though.
Sure, we’re responsible for the politicians we get. The UUP got votes on a certain basis. Could they get them again?
Time will tell ….