A ‘warm-up’ for the marching season
SDLP MLA John Dallat’s description of the on-going loyalist campaign in Garvagh against catholics; The Daily Ireland has more details of the Ballymena attack and catalogues similar incidents in Ballymena in the past year, which occurred during the height of the marching season.
With both nationalist parties identifying the loyalist marching season as the spark for sectarian tensions and attacks across the north, are there unionists/ loyalists who accept this line, or have they a counter-thesis to explain the pattern of sectarian behaviour?
Unfortunately, given some of the vitriol we have seen here recently at Slugger’s, the typical counter-thesis, coming shortly, will be that themmuns started it.
Sectarianism exists all year round, it isn’t a seasonal state. People who conduct these crimes don’t love their neighbour in December and then hate them in April.
Crimes of a violent nature rise in the summer months e.g racist crimes rise in the summer months too and there are no racist parades in NI. Criminal damage cases rise in summer months with the school holidays especially.
This pattern is basically common in the Western World e.g the car brunings that plague the French suburbs always rise at the weekends.
Basically there is greater opportunity for violent attacks and criminal damage in the summer months so they rise.
Didn’t say them’muns once even if the DI is trying to blame us’uns.
Fair deal
I always respect your opinion, although I often disagree.
We are having this discussion on the night a young catholic child had his head kicked in like a melon in the middle of a prosperous town after an Orange parade.
There is no room for humour or excuses. Are you so desensitised that you cannot accept the unacceptable?
Everyone on both sides is wrong in some way. Thats where the future lies, in accepting that.
And also, we can work on international figures tomorrow, but I strongly suspect you are wrong about our levels of violence. Please do not try to minimise the enormity of this tragedy
Fair Deal
Good points.
The warmer weather brings them out of hibernation I guess.
Of course sectarianism exists all year round. The problem is that the marching season appears to raise the level of it for some unionists/loyalists as they seem to believe that they can put us’uns back into our pre-1969 box.
I see unfortunately that the young lad in Ballymena has lost his life so that must be the union secured for another year at least for the neanderthals that reside in Ballymena.
What worries me is that this might not be the last murder of the summer. My opinion of Northern Ireland has changed dramatically over the last two years, the first summer was fine, last summer was dreadful, what of this summer?
I am fortunate enough never to have experienced the troubles, but I am wondering if reducing the military presence is a good idea now – and not because of the IRA. I do not feel that the IRA are a threat at present, but they could be if Loyalist thugs continue to provoke and murder. I can now in a way see why IRA membership spiraled in order to protect Catholic communities. The present behaviour of Loyalists must stop, they are not doing Northern Ireland any favours, some Loyalists they are!
missfitz
“after an Orange parade”
There WASN’T an Orange parade in Ballymena. the parade in the town on the day of the murder was the Ballymena’s Lord Mayors Show!
http://www.paradescommission.org/parades/Parade.cfm?id=13845
“Please do not try to minimise the enormity of this tragedy”
I didn’t hence my comment on the other thread.
Denial, denial, denial. Northern Ireland is forever in denial. It seems that few here have the courage to face up to realities. Only then will there be an end to this madness, of a young boy’s life being brutally snuffed out as if he were an insect or rodent. And the marching season has barely begun.
Only today on Talkback I heard yet another example of denial. The presenter spoke of “marches”. Oh no, sretorted an Orangeman, they’re “parades” not marches.
For crying out loud, if men walk in step they are marching! If, as in Rio, people cavort down the street (where they’re wanted) and everybody has a jolly time, it’s a parade.
But no, we’re in denial that the “parade” is a very thinly disguised military march, complete with kettledrum and fife, and banners to put the fear of God into the enemy.
Do get a life, people, before your endless denial costs more lives.
Is the mayor of Ballymena a nationalist?
Or would he an ….um….Orange man?
You know what I mean, it was not an inclusive event, and unless we start to control the militaristic themes of these parades, this is not the last murder we will see.
See, there you go too, Missy: “parades”.
No, they ain’t. They are MARCHES. Why the euphemism?
From one look dictionary:
Parade; noun: a ceremonial procession including people marching
March; noun: the act of marching; walking with regular steps (especially in a procession of some kind)
Sort of the same.
But there are parades and there are parades.
missfitz
It wasn’t an OO parade end of story. The attempt to twist it into something else is pointless.
In Ballymena, there have been a series of sectarian incidents predating the Lord Mayor’s show, they predate the first Loyal order parade in the town and they predate this year.
Unfortunately the positive signs of the cross-community deal have not flourished. Hopefully these contacts can prevent any further escalation sadly too late for this poor child and his family.
FD
I admit to being quite emotional about this. I have stood up for the right of people to march in their parades for the past 6 years here, and have engaged, studied and worked with all sorts of people to bring light into the corners of darkness. I have never posted a bad word about the OO, indeed I have good relations at many levels there.
It just makes me so sad and angry and frsutrated to see this utter useless waste of life. And to read those Bebo sites where half literate children are spewing venom and slogans that they cannot understand.
I think it may be time to vote with my feet, and I dont mean a march
Here’s an idea. Why not put all marches on hold for a year or two. If less violence ensues then the marches are clearly to blame. Then consider doing away with the wretched things altogether.
On second thoughts, that’s probably too sensible a suggestion for Northern Ireland.
I think there was a period during the 70′s when all marches were banned for a year or too.
Didn’t take obviously.
Shouting from a certain reverend that people should not be denied their god given rights (or something like that)
David
I posted on this recently…. that was tried in 1836 and was a disaster. People were finding any excuse to come together and process, and funerals were gargantuan affairs! The ban was lifted after several years as it was unworkable.
Anyway, the parades arent the problem, they really arent. Look at the Bebo sites and you will see that the depth of hatred goes way beyond that.
Missfitz
I’m acronymically challenged.
What’s a Bebo site and do I really want to go there?
This years Mayors Parade is set to be quite a sight, be prepared – on Saturday 6th May you’d be advised to get a great vantage point to watch the Parade go by.
Starting off from Ballee Playing fields at 11.00am the Parade will make its way down the Antrim Road, Queen Street, North Road, Linenhall Street, Bridge Street, Mill Street, Wellington Street, Ballymoney Street, Thomas Street, past the Fairhill Centre, Broughshane Road and finishes off with a party at the Ecos Centre.
Floats of all shapes and sizes will be taking part including a host of vintage cars, and basically anything that moves !
A few special guests will also appear throughout the Parade including of course the Mayor himself with the visiting Mayor of Gibraltar.
There will be a few surprises you wont be expecting so get yourself a seat and a picnic and come along for a great spectacle – Floats of all shapes, sizes and sounds, Vintage and Classic Cars, Tractors, Bikes, Music, Princesses, Dancers, Pirates and a whole lot more !
You’d be mad to miss the Mayors Parade.
Surprises?
The parades/marches (to me it’s the latter) sustain a sectarian view of the world. It is a visible expression of “them and us”, peopled by sectarian organisations and used as soap-boxes for partisan political speaches.
Is the the cause of the murder of a young Catholic? Directly, probably not but the sectarianism that motivated these thugs was probably ingrained early – by family, friends, neighbours, churches, other oganisations, ‘parades’ and indeed the sectarian murders of the ‘other side’.
Making ‘parades’ “family friendly” is a very high risk endeavour. What is the point? To improve the political socialisation of sectarianism?
Michael McIlveen is now dead.
A bit off topic but is there any word on wtf happened on Cave Hill last night? I can’t find out anything about it. Another tragic waste of life and possibly two lives. I only hope there are no sectarian / political overtones. Body found on Hightown Road is a gruesome reminder of very dark days and even darker nights.
When organisations like the apprentice boys organise a march, as they did on Easter Monday this year in Ballymena, they have a responsibility not to add to the sectarian tensions within the community.
The parade was noted for the number of paramilitary affiliated bands and paramilitary flags and emblems displayed within the parade.
Young people are clearly influenced by these displays and if the loyal orders portray paramilitaries as being acceptable by allowing bands and banners in their parades who glorify killers, this is a very dangerous mix.
One only has to go back to the march on Easter Monday when it was claimed by locals that those responsible for the stabbing of another Catholic teenager in the town, danced past locals as they participated in the parade.
missfitz
Anyway, the parades arent the problem, they really arent. Look at the Bebo sites and you will see that the depth of hatred goes way beyond that.
The marches are A problem, and a big one at that. They focus the poison each year. That’s the purpose, always was. Why d’you think people describe martial music as “stirring”?
Are will those in denial tell us that it’s actually “soothing”?
David Michael: “The marches are A problem, and a big one at that. They focus the poison each year. That’s the purpose, always was. Why d’you think people describe martial music as “stirring”?
Are will those in denial tell us that it’s actually “soothing”?”
Nah… we’ll get Fair_Deal’s vaudville act saying that the season’s are to blame, followed by some bureaucratic double-speak on how these annual “cross-community contacts” just aren’t having the desired effect.
DC
You left out “more education” and “a need for more funding”.
(No doubt I’ve overlooked a couple as well.)
Joe Bloggs
Bebo is a site where people, normally 25 and younger, I believe, set up home pages, link to each other and have a virtual community. Thats really as much as I know.
I visited the site and was chilled. There is more about it on another thread here on the site, that describes the sub culture that you can identify by going there. SHould you? Yes, I think its good to know what goes on around us!
Thank you missfitz
On the seasonal pattern on crimes
“Seasonality in crime…Each crime type follows a different pattern, and some show no significant seasonal effects at all…Violent crime is typically above the trend in the summer months and falls again in the winter.”
http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page2.asp
Something I should have added to my first post. I think it would be safe to say that a society with organised paramilitaries will also see more violent attacks. The deparamilitarisation of Loyalist communities is an issue Unionist body politic can’t get a grip on and it needs to.
missfitz
Emotion is undertandable after such a tragedy but do not depart.
elfinto
It seems pretty certain the Cavehill stuff is not sectarian or political. The word on the seriously ill victim guy seems positive too.
I hate to say this, and other nationalist posters may be shocked (or not as the case may be, considering it’s coming from a southerner who doesn’t have to live in the midst of all the sectarian tension in NI), but I would seriously suggest to northern Nationalists to just let ALL marches through for a couple of years.
I know it’s impossible to convince people who live in flashpoint areas of the wisdom of this, but really I think it would/might take the ‘sting’ out of the so-called symbolic triumphalism of these marches, whether intentional or unintentional. If the IRA can agree to give up their weaponry and order all volunteers to cease and desist permanently in a show of good faith, who knows what a gesture like this would do for the relations between the communities.
Like I said, it’s probably just pie in the sky even to suggest this, but it may be worth considering. At the end of the day, some battle was won about 350 years ago. So f*cking what? A show of blatant defiance may be better than protests which only serve to up the ante and create the kind of circumstances in which that poor lad was kicked to death the other night.
It’s just not worth it anymore…not for the right to brag about some completely pointless, hollow victory over ‘themmuns’ from down the street.
so there we have it- with the exception of missfitz’s nuanced comment and controlled emotion the usual stampede to put the boot into the Orange Order.
I really didn’t want to have to post on this thread, as I was perhaps naive in thinking that people could realise the enormity of this tragedy and show the family some respect by posting with due recognition.
Fat chance.
Some people on this thread should hang their heads in shame- what they’re doing is little short of taking this poor young man’s coffin and exhibiting it through the streets because they just can’t resist a chance to make cheap political points. If only they had a fraction of the grace of the family, as exhibited by the uncle on the radio this morning.
We don’t need to be lectured on the evils of sectarianism by such people as David Michael or Dread Chtulhu-another excruciatingly painful lesson has been taught us all, for the second time in a year,( and the three thousandth in thirty years) of what depths hatred can drag us down to. How they must have groaned when they heard that Ian Paisley had ministered to the family- another chance to bash the DUP had been snatched from them.
Let’s be clear- only a monster would commit such a crime or seek to excuse or deny it.
The people who committed it are not acting for any true Protestant. Anyone not revolted by this appalling crime is beneath contempt, and anyone jumping on a bandwagon of knee-jerk Prod-bashing isn’t much better.
I don’t know of anyone who hasn’t been shocked and deeply saddened by this foul crime,and I’m sure 99.999999% of Protestants feel the same.The remainder aren’t worthy of the name.
The best we can do is pray for the family, and support the police in apprehending the guilty- oh, and reflect that snide posts like those mentioned contribute to demonising whole communities and producing the next generation of sectarian killers
“We don’t need to be lectured on the evils of sectarianism by such people as David Michael”
That’s correct, Darth; nor did I lecture. You need to be lectured by religious and political leaders, most of whom are neglecting the lecturing.
I cringed today to hear Sean Farran dodging the question put to him concerning naked bigotry on the Ballymena council. Was he afraid of siding with the Shinners? Jesus wept. At any other time I might have forgiven his silence and lack of forthrightness. Not now.
Let the politicians lecture us, please!
The death of Michael McIlveen is an absolute tragedy and I am sure we all hope that the police bring the murders to justice.
Nothing will bring the boy back but as mark of respect to his memory, can we have all future parades and marches in the Ballymena banned by the government forthwith.
Some Slugger’s needs to catch themselves on.
The site is littered with links naming minors over murder. People giving advice on how this can be used to circumvent legal practice of anonymity for minors unless a court order is issued.
The bebo site is not a source. Children use it, they don’t know better.
Most Slugger contributors are adults. Most know the law regarding juveniles, anonyimity and court cases.
Many seem happy to engage in a titillating voyeuristic witch hunt based on nothing but the ramblings of children on a bulletin board.
Yes its an emotional case but that doesn’t excuse anyone from the norms expected when dealing with alleged crime from minors.
The kids on bebo don’t know better. People here should. Calm down please.
Mark
While not attempting to detract from the substance ofyour remarks, the links I saw were alleging adult not minor involvement in this murder.
posted by Kathy C
Hi All,
Orange order parades are expressions of hatred and anti-Catholic bigotry. They should be banned and the orange order outlawedas a hate group.
I grew up as a catholic in Ballymena, and I know – cast iron fact – that you do not dare go into the town when the marches are going. Any attempt to say that marches don’t encourage sectarianism is pure bull, and I’m surprised that EVERYONE doesn’t realise that.
ncm
“Any attempt to say that marches don’t encourage sectarianism is pure bull, and I’m surprised that EVERYONE doesn’t realise that.”
Perhaps everyone suspects they do, but not everyone will admit it.
Dec,
One of the repeated links goes directly to the homepage of a 15 year old boy. It gives his name, school, picture, age and has numerous threatening comments alleging he is one of the killers.
Outing a 15 year old boy on the basis of children’s comments on bebo….that is just a little dodgy and something all other sections of the media are avoiding.
Darth Rumsfeld: “I don’t know of anyone who hasn’t been shocked and deeply saddened by this foul crime,and I’m sure 99.999999% of Protestants feel the same.”
Assuming a population of 800,000 Protestants, that leaves 0.8 Protestants who aren’t ‘shocked and deeply saddened’. I think it’s probably rather more than that.
Having grown up in a working class Protestant community I have first hand knowledge of the levels of bigotry and hatred that can and do exist. The kind of bigotry that causes horrific incidents like this to happen.
There is a sizable minority in the Protestant community who, quite frankly, despise Catholics. Despise them so much that they think it is acceptable to batter them to death.
It is time the leadership of the Protestant community made a serious attempt to address this problem. Hell, it would help if they even acknowledged that it exists.
posted by Kathy C
posted by Kathy C
I looked to see if there was another thread on this board for Michael McIlveen and didn’t see one. I would like to say here,
” God help the family of Michael McIlveen.God promises to turn evil into good for those that believe and I pray that God will turn the evil that happened to Michael into good. Cain killed his brother Abel out of hatred…just as Michael was killed out of hatred. God help us. Amen.”
Does anyone know if there is precedence elsewhere for what seems to be happening? There seems to be an emerging antisectarian vigilanteeism emerging using the internet. Wasn’t there a similar phenonemon purporting to out paedopiles and sex offenders a few years ago?
The sectarian fights are bad enough but if we add vigilanteeism to the mix we have a really dangerous situation building up here. I’ve seen references elsewhere to who was responsible for the attacks in Ahoghill last year.
Darth,
I don’t want to falsely accuse you of reacting to my comment just because it came immediately after mine, as I was accused of so doing on another thread this morning, but really,this whole knee-jerk leaping to the defence of the OO is somewhat pointless..I don’t think anyone is suggesting that there is a direct link between the OO and that poor kid getting killed, but everyone is aware that tensions have been rising dangerously in the last couple of weeks, as they ALWAYS do in Northern Ireland around this time of year.
Sometimes I feel unqualified to contribute to these discussions as I have no first-hand experience of the kind of hatred that pervades up in the North, although friends of mine have and have told me some pretty terrifying stories. On other occasions I think it must be impossible for people on both sides of the conflict in NI to try to remain in any way rational or objective about the situation, no matter how hard they try, hence my comment above.
The fact remains that Marching is probably THE biggest issue in Northern Ireland for almost half the year, every year, and anyone who thinks that rising sectarian tensions in and around Ballymena, with the Marching season approaching, had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Michael McIlveen’s death is in complete denial about the reality of the situation.
Having said all that, I would still recommend a change in the approach to Orange marches by the Nationalist community. Events like what happened on Sunday night last are just so horrific that things just need to be brought down several notches very quickly before all hell breaks loose.
Both sides have to finally realise that even if all the ifs and buts that they have on their wishlist were to be granted, there will still be nothing like what can be termed a ‘victory’ for either side when young boys can’t even walk home on a summer’s evening without being kicked and beaten to death because he’s on the ‘wrong’ side of town, or because he’s one of ‘Them’uns’.
The other side of the community isn’t going to just magically disappear for some reason.
Just consider this for a moment: Even if we all woke up tomorrow morning in a 32-county Republic, and let’s just imagine that the Dublin government had been installed as the sole sovereign authority on the whole island overnight, does anybody REALLY think daily life in NI would be ANY different from what it is like today?
Me BOLLOCKS it would. It would be the exact same sectarian shite, with kids getting kicked to death in the same cities, towns, villages and estates, and churches getting firebombed etc. for no good reason other than to carry on some stupid sectarian feud that has never served, and never will serve, any useful purpose.
I’ve said it before on this site & I say again: until each and every person on this island can walk every street and every field without fear of attack because of so-called ‘tribal differences’, then NONE of us will ever be truly free.
Sick sectarian scumbags kick a young boy to death – and yet people decide that this is a bandwagon which they decide to hitch the issue of parades and everything else onto.
If there is a case to be made of marches heightening tensions – then there is also one they are not heightened from one side alone. There are people out there who are actively increasing perceived tensions around marches for their own ends. Those ends are increased sectarian tensions and all which flow from them.
There are people, despite the fact that there is no objective evidence that this murder was in any way related to a parade, use it to call for parades to be banned. That sort of comment also raises tensions – people sometimes seek to deny that.
What exactly does tolerance and mutual respect mean? The demonisation of huge swathes of the Protestant community surely isn’t the best way of dealing with sectarianism. Although some people seem to like it as some kind of sport.
I agree with everything you say, sickened.
Next step: impress on your political leaders, e.g. council members, the importance of respecting fellow-councillors of another faith.
So in effect what you are saying Grassy Noel is that if the Fenians have a problem with orange marches they might get themselves killed and its just not worth it. I mean they should just accept that this is the way things are like good uncle toms.
With respect your life in the South does seem to have blinded you to the depth of feeling amongst Northern Nationalists on this subject.
And dont for a moment believe that the only people with a problem are the Shinners. I live in a 76% nationalist town and every summer for a week our small town is bedecked from top to bottom with flags and emblems that we feel alien and feel insulted by.
We dont want it. And yet in my town no one raises a word – and yet every Nationalist you meet HATES it.
Maybe we have been too accepting far too long. I am surprised that there are only a few contentious parades, because the fact of the matter is ALL of these parades are contentious.
Northern Ireland will NEVER move on until this parading nonsense is stopped. You cannot in a divided society march THOUSANDS of times every years to celebrate ancient and more recent domination of one community by another.
Imagine if I as a Nationalist demanded to go to a 76% Unionist town, take it over a couple of times each summer and plaster it with tricolours and starry ploughs – youd say i was a fecking nutjob, and youd be right.
Wasnt there a period in the 19th century when the Brits banned all such parades?.
What a bloody great idea. Alas i’d never wash here – the good law abiding unionist people would have another coup like the one over Drumcree and then theyd be back on here lecturing about the threat of force……
God help us.
The reason I suggested that all marches and parades be banned was as a mark of respect for this tragedy. I was not suggesting this as means of joining a bandwagon.
My view is simple-
Nationalist/Orange parades and marches serve no useful purpose. They are simply oulets for sectarianism and as such should be banned.
I am absolutley sure that this represents the majority view in the UK.
So, in a brave new Ireland, all sectarian marches are banned. With the exception of Sinn Fein orchestrated and approved cultural events, no doubt. So far, so Brownshirt.
But, does anybody here really believe that removing the outward manifestations of our great hate will somehow tame the perverted mindset which resulted in the cruel murder of this child? It’s a bit like believing that hiding the matches will stop an arsonist.
The ‘people’ who murdered this boy are so twisted and bent by their own inner demons that it may be that they are actually beyond redemption. Perhaps we have to accept as we move haltingly toward a ‘normal’ level of civilised and non-political barbarity that there will always be such abberations and the way to treat them is to identify them early and quite ruthlessly control their freedoms.
I would just like to say that any Unionist who isn’t completely repulsed by this lynching and does not stand with the parents of Michael McIlveen and say clearly, ‘not in our name,’ should be treated with the same contempt we are rightly quick to show for republican apologists for terrorism. This is community terrorism. It is wholly wrong and it has to be beaten.
BogExile
“But, does anybody here really believe that removing the outward manifestations of our great hate will somehow tame the perverted mindset which resulted in the cruel murder of this child?”
Yes, I for one do. It will tame it to some degree. I’ll repeat what I said earlier. It concerns focus. Military-style marches, complete with kettledrums, fifes, provocative banners and battlecries are designed to focus the minds of friend and foe alike.
They’re unhealthy and have no place in peacetime. Get rid of them all.
TT, I don’t know how to fix the situation up North any more than Blair, Paisley, Adams or Ahern or anyone else, but this merry-go-round that continues to take place every year around these stupid marches only serves to highlight their significance. I agree with you that it is unfair that OO marches are forced through nationalist areas, I have argued on this site before that it is akin to letting Rangers fans march through a Celtic area of Glasgow after an old firm game taunting the locals with a police cordon protecting them. It is absolutely crazy, illogical and should NOT be allowed to happen.
And yet it does. What can nationalists, North or South, do about it? It seems there will be riots every year, no matter what happens. The Unionists will riots if the marches don’t get forced down the road, Nationalists will riot if they do. Meanwhile, outside of a few major flashpoints in NI, nobody gives a shit and occasionally when they come across the odd headline asks, “what the f*ck’s going on in NI now”?. That’s just life, unfortunately.
It’s blindingly obvious to everyone looking in on this situation with an objective point of view that the reason the OO are so determined to assert their ‘Britishness’ with these ridiculous ‘cultural’ events is because they feel their grip on the Union is slipping and the more concessions Nationalism makes, or appears willing to make, the more nervous they get, and the greater injustice they perceive has been committed against them, because they are so suspicious about being sold down the river by the British government as part of a long strategy to appease both sides wean Unionism off the tit of Westminster.
And let’s be honest about it – they’re probably right. And no it doesn’t justify demanding to be allowed parade through nationalist areas just so they can jeer and scream at nationalists that some battle was won on some muddy field over 3 centuries ago. But it seems to me that that’s almost all they have left, and as I’ve stated in previous posts, if it’s really so important to them, then maybe they should be accommodated for th foreseeable future, rather than risk the alternative – i.e. young lads being killed for no reason like Michael McIlveen. I know there’s no real reason to feel optimistic about how community relations would be improved by such a gesture, but you never know.
WHo really cares about flags flying outside the entrence to some shitty sink estate? Or whether the local kerbways are painted in teh tricolour or union colours? Who f*cking cares about whether Celtic wins the 2-horse race that is the Scottish League, or whether Rangers reach the group stages of the Champions league? Especially if the price people have to pay for such small-minded, petty, trivial little ‘victories’ is that they constantly have to look over their shoulders for their entire lives?
It’s just not worth the effort anymore, for either side. It really isn’t. In truth, it never was.
Hey Slugger nuts…there’s an ‘&’ missing from the above post.
Try to find where!
Text your answers to 01691 or 01916.