Ballymena Loyalists have said the cross-community deal that saw the removal of a UDA mural opposite a Roman Catholic chapel is off. Republicans have failed to deliver on their promised reciprocation of removing Irish tricolours.
Writer Christopher Hitchens has died aged 62. He was as contrary as he was brilliant. Here is a brief In Memoriam from Vanity Fair (his outlet of choice since 1992) and, here, a longer tribute from his friend Christopher Buckley Stanley in The New Yorker. Better, perhaps, though to post one of Hitchens’ own writings in [...] read our review »
Unionists, Loyalists, and Conflict Transformation in Northern Ireland is a new academic tome by lecturer and researcher Lee Smithey. In the book the Pennsylvania academic outlines his findings based on 67 interviews over eighteen months with grassroots activists in unionist and loyalist communities and organisations. This is largely a book about men, even though they [...] read our review »
It seems that the “loyalists” have again been unable to see the BIG picture (pun intended)
A “deal” between both communities need never have taken place in the first instance, as all Loyalists Murals should be taken down and replaced with cultural and heritage murals this is what the Unionists community prefer.
We as unionists should do our bit (no matter how small that may be at times) to bring our communities up to a proper level of normalisation.
Besides the tricolour was paraded down the Shankill Rd not so long back there didn’t seem to be a problem then. one should always remember that the Tricolour belongs to the people of Republic of Ireland and NOT IRA/SF.
Maybe those concerned really don’t like to see our cultural and heritage murals as they are indeed the best by far. It would suit hard-line republicans to see Ulster-Scots murals removed and would that in itself not be a “victory” for them?
Come on lads a little more thought on this one.
Dave,
The same way the Union Jack belongs to the British and not Unionists/Loyalists?
Youse need to all wise up by taking down all flags and not painting wall murals – both loyalists and Republicans.
Both sides are just an insult to the normal people who want to get on with life.
Fintan,
No matter what your “years of experience has” (sic) told you, you would be better admitting the truth than denying the obvious.
Also, you stated ” no wonder he got a job with Brit intelligence”, when did I state that I worked for “Brit intelligence”? Perhaps I work for Sinn Fein, but, then again, be the same thing then!
This is a fairly misleading post. As this more comprehensive article states, it would appear loyalists and republicans both have grounds for complaint over this apparent ‘deal.’
I think its highly ironic and indicative of unionism’s arrogance that the loyalists would walk away from the tentative arrangement at the first opportunity and threaten the return of some blood-curdling mural after the first spot of difficulty on the horizon. After all, it’s only April; but then, perhaps the thought of abiding by a deal with nationalists as the blood is raised for the six-month long marching season was too much to stomach?
We know from last Summer that loyalism maintains an active presence in the area and is only too willing to attack catholic homes, businesses and churches on any pretence.
For my part, I believe that Ballymena would be best served by a no flags policy throughout the town, but it would need to be all inclusive. If loyalists wish to retain the right to erect loyalist flags in predominantly unionist areas, then they should not be surprised when some nationalists/ republicans reciprocate in other parts of the town. It’s not ideal- nor desirable- but hardly unexpected.
Here’s that link.
http://dailyireland.televisual.co.uk/home.tvt?_ticket=647132Z9CHVR6JL1HONDNPTM9LLDNVP5TRRIVQNAGNXGFLPEHI1FURUQ4YZ9ANWRALKACJ5G0QRFK1SL9NTGN0O9CHUTXSQFIQ0HHMTEDWFSPGSGX4SFMSMAAQ48X7KACK5FURXJHONGJMTEDWWK5&_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=28347&opp=1
observer
“There was an agreement made…surely they are allowed to be p*ssed off that it has been broken – however, immediately moving to replace the offending mural is probably still not the best way forward.”
I agree. In the first instance the loyalists should judicially review the decision of the republicans to put the flags back up.
Senior Counsel should be briefed and the original agreement subjected to the scrutiny of a court of law.
At first sight it certainly looks like the republicans are responsible for the failure to implement. But the crux of the issue may rest on whether the flying of loyalist flags is covered in the original agreement, and/or if it is reasonable for republicans to maintain that they are so covered.
For my part, I believe that Ballymena would be best served by a no flags policy throughout the town, but it would need to be all inclusive. If loyalists wish to retain the right to erect loyalist flags in predominantly unionist areas, then they should not be surprised when some nationalists/ republicans reciprocate in other parts of the town. It’s not ideal- nor desirable- but hardly unexpected.
I think you have a fair point Chris.I know the last thing we need is another quango, but I’d like to see a concerted effort to take down every flag from every lampost, and pass a law that any Mural must abide by strict guidelines, including no overtly militaristic themes.
Chris,
You don’t really expect people to look at a Daily Ireland article as being comprehensive, or even partially impartial do you?
Certainly some people from a security POV could look at the editor and ownership as doing an excellent job, but they weren’t asked to be impartial or comprehensive and they certainly aren’t!
A classic case of messenger shooting, II.
Chris,
Is that not what the Provo’s do?
Oh no, they don’t shoot the messenger, they shoot the Head of Admin.
II
I’m with Chris + TAFKABO – i’d like all flags taken down in Ballymena and elsewhere. The problem is worse in places like Ballymena and Lisburn where Nationalist symbols are ignored at an official level and the only culture permitted is a Unionist/Protestant one. The problem of flags etc needs to be tackled once and for all. It can only be done so when Nationalist flags and symbols are given equal treatment to Unionist sysmbols. We should then come down hard on those wanting to fly their own flags or banners – I don’t believe this situation would be tolerated anywhere else in Europe yet in Ballymena Loyalists erect flags outside the police station!
And another thing, why are loyalists so insecure in a town like Ballymena that they feel the need to mark out their territory in such an ugly fashion. You can kind of see reason around interfaces and even in Dunclug where some fools want to mark out their territory in an otherwise Unionist town – but those reasons don’t exist in Harryville (except around Our Lady’s)
qubol,
You are quite right, no other country in Europe would allow such a furore over the flying of a flag. I am sure you would agree with me in stating that this would be easily overcame by banning all flags apart from the Union flag, no UDA flags, no UVF flags, no Ulster flags, no Arab flags, Israeli flags, Irish flags or flags from any other country other than the U.K..
I think that banning all flags, except the Union flag, and the tricolour would be something worth looking at.
And before anyone starts in with the legality, I know that the tricolour is not an official flag, but in the spirit of the agreement and good neighbourliness we should accept it as a valid symbol.
Germany has a succesful law which prohibits the display of Nazi emblems such as the swastika.
Without invoking Godwins law, I think a similar policy ought to apply to all illegal armed groups.
FAO Sean
Dave,
“The same way the Union Jack belongs to the British and not Unionists/Loyalists?”
+++Well now sean, I believe that unionists/Loyalists are British and many Catholics would also define themselves as british+++
“Youse need to all wise up by taking down all flags and not painting wall murals – both loyalists and Republicans.”
+++ I agree with you on that all Paramilitary flags should be taken down and the national flag of Northern Ireland should be the only flag on display+++
“Both sides are just an insult to the normal people who want to get on with life.”
++here, here!
TAFKABO,
The flying of the tricolour, in my view, should only be allowed on the occasion of an official visit from the head of state of that country. Likewise with a visit from our own head of state to the Republic of Ireland. No Union flag in the Republic, except with an official engagement, no Tricolour in the U.K. except with an official engagement. Does anyone think that’s unfair?
II: “I am sure you would agree with me in stating that this would be easily overcame by banning all flags apart from the Union flag”
No II, did you not read my post? Dave and II seem like the kind of people that give my favourite answer when this debate crops up. “well if you like the Irish flag so much why don’t you move down there” Its that kind of high-brow thinkin that never fails to raise a smile with me, can you not even see how ludicrous that argument is? I really have to ask if these people actually believe what they say or are they just spoutin out the usual lines.
I very rarely agree with TAFKABO – but – well said that man. Pity no Unionist political representatives have the balls to put their heads above the parapet on this one.
Intelligence Insider,
Lets just crush a major misinterpretation on your part.
No matter what your “years of experience has” (sic) told you, you would be better admitting the truth than denying the obvious.
My years of experience of the perfidy of Albion come from living in Norn Iron. Nothing more, nothing less.
Also, you stated “ no wonder he got a job with Brit intelligence”, when did I state that I worked for “Brit intelligence”? Perhaps I work for Sinn Fein, but, then again, be the same thing then!
I always thought you were a mate of Martin (Ingram’s). Certainly you claim to have a lot of highly sensitive information. Ex SB perhaps?
While there most likely are informers still out there, I will always treat the claims of spooks and provocateurs with a healthy degree of scepticism.
qubol,
It’s less ludicrous than asking people in the United Kingdom to stop flying the flag of their own country.
fintan,
I know of Martin (Ingram) [as I'm sure many do!]but have never claimed to know him personally, where have I claimed “to have a lot of highly sensitive information”???
Maybe you are one of my informants? Just ring me on the usual number Fintan, the money is in the bank!
LMFAO!
Dave!!
You really think the majority of British people (outside the North) would agree with the use of “their” Union Jack during parades in places like Garvagahy or on loyalist wall murals that promote terrorism? The only reason why we don’t hear their reaction is that either they dont give a rat arse or they simply just don’t know how the exactly the Union Jack is used in a daily manner in the North. I for one would be a highly disappointed Brit the same way I am a disappointed Irish man for the way our flag is used.
Dave I disagree with the use of the National flag to be used, it wouldn’t solve the problem. We should actually just use a simple plain white flag and not to have a national anthem. Many people in the North don’t deserve to have a nationality so the solution? Strip them from every right to their own identity. Maybe, just maybe if people started to learn on how to work things out with each other then a splash of colour could be added to the flag which could take thousands of years.
As for the stupid idiot who stated “”well if you like the Irish flag so much why don’t you move down there” your comments is nothing but hate and you should really look at like this “if you like the British flag so much why no feck off back to England, we were here first.”
Ps Fintan,
Claiming that the Butcher of the Bogside, the man behind the Maskey, the DI editor, Fanny Mo, Uncle Tom and Papa Doc are spies isn’t anything new!
I guess what loyalists might do is always more important than what republicans are doing.
selling drugs verses blackmarket diesel and fags—there is a bit of a diference
Sean,
British people (outside the North)????
North of England, Scotland, Wales????
Or are you, at last, admitting that the Northern Irish people are British?
Intelligence Insider,
“where have I claimed “to have a lot of highly sensitive information”???”
You claimed in a previous post that the majority of the leadership of four different republican organisations were spies. So you are now admitting it was bluster. I thought so.
elfinto (to you)
Martin,
Drugs verses (sic) blackmarket diesel and fags????
If you don’t know that the all the IRA’s are involved in drug dealing you are even less intelligent than your spelling suggests!
I’d say FARC up except you might not be able to gather I am inferring to a certain organisations connection with the biggest supplier of heroin in the world!
II,
Save your trolling for somewhere else.
Intelligence Outsider,
Colombia, a country well known for its heroin production. I’ve heard it all now!
The British army are currently chasing poppies (and shadows) in Afghanistan. Who knows, in future the RBL might be operating a needle exchange.
Intelligence Insider
“North of England, Scotland, Wales????” – No the Amazon Jungle!
“Or are you, at last, admitting that the Northern Irish people are British?”
What do you mean at last? I never denied Northerners are British or Irish. What I did say is that Bigots have no right to either flag, need a doodle drawn to explain?
Fintan,
I’ll repeat it;
“They may have been useful, or even “ use fool”, but never, ever, as useful as those within all the different IRA’s! Be it OIRA, PIRA, CIRA, RIRA, all have a majority in their senior command structures who pass on all of importance to someone in the British Intelligence network, be it Special Branch, MI5/6, or FRU.”
Now, Fintan, are you honestly trying to tell me that that is sensitive information???? Thats pretty well known amongst all the players!
You will not be able to name who I work for as you haven’t heard of them!(Unless of course you’re one of us??)
Elfinto,
What was sensitive about that??? It’s well known!
selling drugs verses blackmarket diesel and fags—there is a bit of a diference
Yes of course there is.
Illegal fuel smuggling is depriving the economy of much needed funds for schools and hospitals, the damage being wreaked on the local enviroment is appalling,and the increased risk of ill health and disease from all those dodgy cigarrettes should in no way be compared to the odd ounce of blow and a few Es.
( only joking)
I can’t believe someone would be so f*ckin stupid as to play moral relativism with these things
I do know that the IRA has never been involved in drug sales and I do believe that this has been publicly attested to in the past by some of your beloved Westminster people along with Mc Dowell in the south—Its late ,and my eyes are a bit sore but if it makes you feel better Ill spell it this way—Versus–makes all the difference doesnt it.
P.s by the way I was only doing this to make a Unionist out there who is also a closet Loyalist sympathiser rise to the bait—-instead you have
IO,
You work for The Troll Foundation
Lads,did anyone see our Bertie on here lately
Martin,
“I do know that the IRA has never been involved in drug sales”
Gerry ,
“I am not, and never have been, a member of the IRA.”
Martin,
you are either admitting membership of a proscribed organisation (surely against the Green Book??) or you are extremely stupid!
Fintan,
Thank you for conceding.
II
you people get so hung up on this Green book,you said it in a way that must mean that I should be impressed that you know about it.
And why would I have to be a member of the PIRA to know that they dont deal drugs are you trying to tell us that you are a member of it because you have read this green book—
P.s the one I read was photocopied so I would have to obey the white book if I was or ever had been,which I am not,a member of that club
II,
if you are also posting somewhere else under ”Smiffy” you should stick with that name Intelligence doesnt go with you—smiffy is the only male bitch out there that makes a fuss about spelling he like you is also unbelievably stupid
“The flying of the tricolour, in my view, should only be allowed on the occasion of an official visit from the head of state of that country. Likewise with a visit from our own head of state to the Republic of Ireland. No Union flag in the Republic, except with an official engagement, no Tricolour in the U.K. except with an official engagement. Does anyone think that’s unfair?”
This of course, is garbage. The Deli down the road from me flies an Italian tricolour and if you go to London you’ll probably see quite a few “Foreign Flags” waving. The flying of an Irish flag is an expression of cultural identity. The painting of a pro-terrorist mural (whether loyalist or republican) is an expression of exactly that. terrorism. I am not offended when I see someone flying a union jack (accept of course when it is painted as the backdrop of a UDA mural.) I don’t personally feel that this was a fair deal in the first place: You take down your cultural symbol and we’ll replace our terrorist symbol with a cultural one. If we find that You’ve left up your cultural symbol we’ll replace our cultural symbol with a terrorist one. That said I recognize that both flags have taken on ulterior meanings for the people of northern Ireland. My answer to that is: get over it. The majority of us can live beside each other’s cultures and its time for the rest of you to step out of you IRA/UDA mentalities and move forward. I completely agree with TAFKABO on the passing of strict guidelines regarding community murals. The reason that nationalists feel intimidated by the Union jack and vice versa is because we instantly associate these flags with the far more aggressive forms of expressions in which we have often seen them.
“personally feel Sectarian GAA matches should also be challenged.”
Posted by confused on Apr 24, 2006 @ 05:05 PM
Then maybe you should stop having GAA matches in your living room or out on your street and have them in a specially designated place for hosting such events, called a football pitch. these ‘football pitches’ are ideal, and unlike being made a prisoner in your own home as a loud, unwelcome troupe goose-step through, matches can occur causing little or no offence, except to those who go out of their way to take offence.
No need to thank me for this advice, consider it a neighbourly gesture.
All this talk about flags. Such glorified territorial p!ssings, a big thing in NI and no-where else. Careful lads that you are not facing the wind when you take one, your kids will be born with webbed feet otherwise.
Martin,
Global Intelligence report from 19th Feb 2005..
Britain’s security services – MI5 and MI6 – have established that the Stg£2 million found in Cork last week is linked to worldwide drug smuggling by Colombia’s drug barons and the Russian Mafia.
The security services say it is significant that of the Stg£2 million seized in Cork, only Stg£65,000 was in Northern Ireland banknotes – possibly part of the proceeds from the Stg£26 million Northern Bank robbery in Belfast before Christmas.
When the Cork seizure was made by the Irish Garda, MI5 agents were in the port city. For weeks they had been sharing intelligence with the Irish Criminal Assets Bureau and the country’s National Bureau of Fraud Investigation.
While the IRA also remain the prime suspect for the Northern Bank robbery – the largest ever haul in Britain – the security services have now identified the IRA’s role as money launderer for the drug runners.
“The IRA has played an increasingly important role in laundering drug profits from Britain”, confirmed an intelligence source in London.
Britain has become a prime target for drugs smuggled from Eastern Europe and Colombia through Spain.
MI6 agents who have travelled to Colombia are also convinced that “in return for services rendered”, the Colombia drug barons organised the escape of the three IRA members known as the Colombia Three. The trio had each been sentenced to 17 years in a high-security Colombia jail for terrorist activities in the country. Out on bail, they escaped hours before they could be taken to prison.
Yesterday, a senior officer with Colombia’s DAS confirmed the presence of MI6 agents.
“We are helping them all we can to establish how the drug barons helped the trio to escape”, he said.
MI6 is also working closely with Spanish intelligence to establish the electronic trail that the IRA uses to shift huge amounts of money around the world.
Stops along the trail include banks in Madrid, Gibraltar and the Cayman Islands. Another trail moves the money through banks in the Balkans, South Africa and into Asia.
The money found in Cork is thought to have derived from Britain – possibly hand couriered over by the IRA to the port city. From there it would have been wired out to IRA controlled accounts around the world.
Last month, MI6 learned from El Salvador’s intelligence service that substantial sums of money originating from a European bank – where IRA fund-raising money is channelled – had been briefly deposited in the country’s capital, San Salvador. It was then moved to a bank in Singapore.
In a separate move, the FBI are also investigating bank accounts in the United States that could be IRA-linked through its substantial fund-raising activities. Names of the banks are being kept secret by the FBI “for ongoing operational reasons”.
Another investigation into IRA money-laundering is being run by Mexico’s intelligence agency, CISEN.
Britain’s investigation into the IRA activities is being run from the Terrorist Attack Assessment Centre (TAAC) overlooking London’s River Thames. Its state-of-the-art computers help its analysts to track information from around the world.
TAAC is directly linked to the CIA and FBI.
ends
Good to see Intelligence Insider is adept at Active Measures.
He’ll be telling us that Saddam Hussein had WMD next.
Elfinto,
Next you’ll be telling us that sinn fein has nothing to do with the ira!
Dr Strangelove,
I hope you don’t mean Active Measures such as the provo’s claiming that the bomb in Enniskillen was set off by the British Army?
Rememember that?
not one poster has contemplated the possibility that the mass goers at harryville and the flag flyers up the road are not the same people and therefore the deal was between non harryville mass going flag flyers and loyalists….cynical camera baloney…no benefit to harryville chapel any which way…but hey don’t let stop the mud slinging!
Mike, I don’t think anyone considered that cos its pretty nonsense hypothesis. I would be fairly certain that our flag fyers in Dunclug are not mass-goers of any discription and I believe (although open to correction) that amongst the congregation at Harryville is Nula O’Loan, our police ombudsman, cant see her getting up too many lampposts.
qubol,
I hope that O’Loans involvement means that she will declare an interest if there is any involvement by the Ombudsman.
Ballymena is geographically in the middle of two separate and quite autonomous UDA brigade areas-North-Antrim Londonderry, which stretches from the City of Londonderry to North Ballymena, and South-East Antrim, where Harryville is situated and the rest of South Ballymena, encompassing towns such as Carrickfergus, Larne, Glengormley and parts of Newtownabbey, including Monkstown and Rathcoole.
The Ulster-Scots Society were in dialogue with the local UDA, the South-East Antrim Brigade as far as I am aware. This is not my local Brigade, as I live in East Londonderry, but I still know a little about the “deal”. As far as I am aware the Ulster-Scots Society and the UDA came to an agreement that the Ulster Defence Association mural in question would be removed and replaced with a mural celebrating the Ulster-Scots tradition. However, this was only agreed on the condition that Ballymena republicans would remove the offensive and provocative tricolours in the local area. Republicans reneged and failed to deliver so who exactly is at fault for this? I have a message for the nationalist posters on Slugger:
Open your eyes instead of posting unsubstantiated bile. Ballymena republicans had the chance to get rid of a mural they despise in return for the removal of a few flags…their intransigence has cost them this opportunity.