Donaldson reportedly “shot dead” in Donegal
Ireland Online are reporting that the former Sinn Féin staff member, and long-term informant, Denis Donaldson “has been shot dead”, but have very few details other than that. But given his most recent, dishevelled, appearance in the media it would be impossible, at this point, to rule out the possibility that he took his own life. And where does this leave the assessment of the public interest in the Stormont spy-ring case? Update BBC are reporting that Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has described it as a brutal murder – RTÉ report here. While Secretary of State Peter Hain is quoted as “completely appalled by this barbaric act.”
BB: “Dread C this has nothing to do with my faith in anybody at all. You claimed in an earlier post that you’d applied rationality to the argument. All I am saying is this is not really a rational argument, to say a spy for twenty years was killed for his loot, by having his arm severed off, and tortured!!”
Its just as rational as saying PIRA did it without a shred of evidence in hand, BB. They have deuced little to gain by killing him at this point in time. For one, the cow is already out of the barn. For another, the timing of this is very bad for this to be any sort of sanctioned action from PIRA, being almost out from under.
As for the damage to the body, all you have is what a couple of politicians have said. There are any number of possibilities and all you are doing is a little bit of wishful thinking at this point.
As for the bank thing — hey, it was a example off the top of my head — and I don’t usually attribute brilliance to the home-invading set or to most of the criminal fraternity.
Didn’t K Fulton develop the bombs there (SA) to kill people here and now they are being used in Iraq?
WHAT?
Dread C I have heard of ripping your arm off to get a bit of money, but this is a bit much don’t you think?
What?
Don’t you keep up. KF went to US to buy infra red timers in NY, and developed the bombs that killed people in SA. Now the same type of bomb has been developed and used in Iraq to kill british soldiers.
The threads were on here Chris.
Keep up
“Has all the hallmarks of “Fredo’s” treatment by Michael Corleone in the Godfather”
I was actually thinking it would be more like the Freddie Five Fingers treatment…remember when Tom when and had a talk with him then he killed himself???
Peter Keeley is also a bit of a fantasist.
No wonder Gerry and Martin have disassociate themselves from the murder – we all know Denis was sacrificed to SAVE the Bigger MOLE !!!
j c
BB: “Dread C I have heard of ripping your arm off to get a bit of money, but this is a bit much don’t you think? ”
Dunno… and neither do you. All we have are a collection of W.A.G.s circulating around in an echo-chamber.
Chris Gaskin
You really are touchy and defensive about south Armagh aren’t you.
Those honourable, soldierly types who beat to death an informer and gouged his eyes out with a crowbar in a Newry estate a few years back.
No, it couldn’t possibly be them now could it.
jc
who is the bigger mole?
You really are touchy and defensive about south Armagh aren’t you.
No, I just don’t like it when rubbish is printed about the area I come from.
Those honourable, soldierly types who beat to death an informer and gouged his eyes out with a crowbar in a Newry estate a few years back.
It seems your imagination is interjecting again on this one.
I think you are referring to the killing of Eamon Collins but some of your, er “facts” are a bit up the left.
You claim that it was people from South Armagh that killed him, who?
Well Brenda – you can have choice A or B
Sure we all know – Gerry+Martin have sold the republican movement down the river. NI is still british – i think they’ve done a great job – and should be knighted – Sir Adams lol
j c
A man is dead, and his passing brutal. I think better to sit and see how this unfolds than speculate and join an unseemly rush to attribute blame.
Perhaps better to reflect how a life that starts with promise can come to this. All the grand aims, idealism and ambitions of youth long spent, and the human frailties that leads one to a lonely and tragic death.
Sad really like much of the last 30years.
While a lot of the posts are entertaining (to a degree), it is clear that all of the people speculating either haven’t a clue or just simply grinding a few axes. The people who are definitively laying the blame are simply looking stupid.
“… about the area I come from.”
So I was right then about it all being a little too close to home.
Has Slab been about recently?
jc
LOL;
Prime Time RTE is reporting about DD at around 9.30
People can, have and will continue to lay blame for this vicious murder wherever suits their politics. I am convinced that this is the act of republicans and given Adams@ statement it loks like that is his belief as well.
The only question is whether this murder was sanctioned or indeed instigated by the SF/IRA leadership. I’m getting fed up of the rogue ruepublicans being used as convenient scapegoats for crimes that it doesn’t suit SF/IRA to take credit/blame for. Whether it be the killing of Garda Gerry McCabe, The Colombia Three, the murder of Robert McCartney, the Northern Bank raid etc. it is clear that either the SF/IRA no longer has control over all its henchmen or that they have not turned their back on murder and criminality and are simply hiding behind these criminals.
I doubt it was the IRA (who have risked too much by disarming just to blow it like this) or MI5. My money personally would be on dissident republicans. It’s an easy job and they get kudos for stiffing an informer; into the bargain it messes up the political process.
I think J C is not far out in his post. Donaldson inadvertently found out who the senior informants within PSF/PIRA were, that made Donaldson a serious risk to the strategy that has taken so many years for them to develop. Hence, after being told to lie low for a few months by the same people, an XPD order was given.
THE IRA was suspiciously quick with its statement.
There are a number of things that are quite disturbing about this. Firstly, that Donaldson was living in a house without running water or electricity in a republican area of rural Donegal. If he feared republicans, it was hardly a hospitable place to be. If republicans feared him, it would hardly have been a worse place to kill him and then mount a cover-up. It seems to me, contrary to popular belief, that Adams and Co had a great deal of sympathy for Donaldson, and that they wished to protect him (after interrogating him). Mainstream Provos as culprits: highly unlikely.
Secondly, it is only a week ago that Donaldson talked to the media; openly, freely, without any discernible pressure. Now, if I were someone that put him into isolation, surely it would have been a precondition of his safety that he keep his mouth shut. This would seem to point the blame back at the RA, but then again, Denis was a smart guy, not given (to make a gross understatement) to blowing his cover. Moreover, what he said directly correlated with the SF line, and would seem to have bolstered their case. So why bump a gift horse off?
As regards dissidents, asides from some facile vengeance or pathetic propaganda coup, the motivation seems too little to merit the risk of life in prison (which, if you’re a dissident, is always a pressing concern). Why do the dirty work of your mortal enemies (whether that be the Brits, or the Provos) and, isn’t a Provo tout more useful alive as evidence of their apostasy?
Now, this leaves two plausible explanations for me. One, that this was the result of a personal vendetta. Many people had good reason to loathe the man (time spent in jail, relatives killed by SAS, hatred of a guy who enforced Brit strategy in SF). The weapon – a shotgun – is something that can be got by anybody, not a strictly military type of weapon. Also, his hand was hacked off, which, to a criminologist, seems the kind of visceral savagery that can only be born of a deeply personal, venemous grievance. This explanation would lead the finger to be pointed in many directions.
And this leads me to the other explanation. Who does it best serve to point the finger in many directions? Who does it best serve to portray this as the result of a personal grievance; the intense, bestly hatred of someone who knew and felt betrayed by this man? Why, those who would be capable of killing William Stobie, Brian Nelson, and other Brit informants turned dissidents; those who have most to lose if one of their operatives was to become unstable in his rural isolation and begin to spill his proverbial beans to the Sunday World. Now, who could that be…
Has anyone heard how he was found and by who?
Something that occurs is that he went off to live on his own in this remote place, apparently well away from everyone…and he was then seen alive earlier today (BBC report), so how was it the body was discovered so quickly? If it was the Gardai found him, why were they checking his cottage?
(I offer this without a preconceived answer – just wondered if there were any thoughts??)
Shamo,
Brian Nelson wasn’t killed by anyone and the similarity in the death’s of Donaldson and Stobie is because they were both people who admitted informing on the actions of the paramilitary organisations they belonged to, and who were killed by informers, or on the orders of informers, who held higher rank than them.
Intelligence Inside.
……….I think J C is not far out in his post…..
I would think the moon is far out, and i think your not far behind him.
He was found by a neighbour lying dead near his remote cottage today at 5pm.
I don’t think it is right to speculate about who did this, but whoever it was they are one of the many people who oppose the peace process. They couldn’t have timed it better anyhow!
“I don’t think it is right to speculate about who did this, but whoever it was they are one of the many people who oppose the peace process. They couldn’t have timed it better anyhow! ”
says “English”.
I’d have to disagree, I’d say whoever it was they are one of the many people who oppose senior SF/IRA members being exposed as informers or agents.
Coincidence is a form of necessity.
Before important talks a bank was robbed the last time just days before coincidently. A man got killed this time. In about one and a half years time when such talks are looming again one can only fear stricken wonder what might happen then. Or what this necessity could be and who thought it would be necessary. Or for this matter, how often can it be repeated.
Once bitten …
10 oclock news fast and furious here.
Reg Empey making political mileage and appearing to put it on the shinners.
Marty McGuinness now on…. pointing finger at ??securocrats?? but we need an open mind???
It sounds like a lot of people/organizations had motive (as they say on the cop shows) to kill the man. For that reason, and lack of evidence at this point, I’m not going to speculate.
I do have one question, though. Isn’t it possible that his hand was blown off or mutilated by the shotgun blast? Perhaps he was attempting to cover his face? Don’t you folks place some importance on preserving the face, i.e. for the sake of the survivors?
Countergang: “I do have one question, though. Isn’t it possible that his hand was blown off or mutilated by the shotgun blast? Perhaps he was attempting to cover his face? Don’t you folks place some importance on preserving the face, i.e. for the sake of the survivors”
Depending on the load, yes, it is quite possible that the hand wound is a “defensive” wound, the result of Donaldson throwing his arms up before being shot. Close range and buckshot… its not pretty.
Missfitz: “Reg Empey making political mileage and appearing to put it on the shinners.
Marty McGuinness now on…. pointing finger at ??securocrats?? but we need an open mind??? ”
So the predicted (and utterly predictable) song and dance routine has been performed…
Now, as the formalities are out of the way, what is next on the agenda?
Well DC, at least we know one thing for certain, it aint gonna be the truth
Let’s not forget Gerry Adams told the general public he was not, and never had been, a member of the IRA, he told us that the IRA were not involved in the robbery that resulted in the death of Gardai McCabe, he told us that there was no connection between those arrested in Colombia and Sinn Fein/IRA.
After being so honest about the above matters why would Gerry lie about the death of Denis Donaldson?…………………
Its enough to make even the calmest of us fucking furious. Every time we get close to getting devolution back something like this happens, its completely nauseating watching Adams and McGuinness deny republican involvement…who the hell else killed him, oh wait a tic, I know, it was really a plot by Reg Empey and Mark Durkan.
Enough of the conspiracy theories, this was some sick agenda of the PIRA/SF, give it a few months and the truth will come out it was the IRA, just like when Robert McCartney was killed, just like when Garda McCabe was killed, just like when the bank was robbed.
Paisley said on the news that he was shocked when he heared about the shooting.
Maybe he thought it was the othed Donaldson.
Or maybe he’s shocked because it wasnt.
fedup
….Enough of the conspiracy theories…
Do as i say not as i do.
“Isn’t it possible that his hand was blown off or mutilated by the shotgun blast? Perhaps he was attempting to cover his face?”
Some are saying that, the reason for his hand being partially severed, was due to a symbolic gesture by his killer. As D.D. was supposedly blackmailed into becoming a spy by the brits, some are saying that by severing his hand, he can no longer use it to cause damage.
Yes, that’s precisely why I asked the question. The point being that it’s possible there was no symbolism to it whatsoever. Sometimes a mutilated hand is just a mutilated hand.
And Blow Hard Ian had this to say:
“He said the murder was very strange, others who had been discovered to have been spying “were just wiped off the face of the earth.”
He added: ” If what I have heard is true that they cut his hand off, that would show that they were saying ‘here is a hand that signed away, what we would say, his obligation to IRA/Sinn Fein and we will deal with him’ – it looks like that sort of murder.”
Maybe they cut off his hand so he couldn’t point the finger.
Have to say I believe that members of PIRA did it but not for the revenge reason. This last week south armagh Pira found out what a settlement really meant namely they were out of business in more ways than one. This is not a message to the governments this is a message to gerry and martin and to anyone else slab and the boys feel sold them out.
Well, the DUP are pointing the finger firmly at Sinn Fein (even though there has been no evidence to suggest this to date). Ian Paisley Junior has stated that dissidents would have commited this murder, as it might start a war between themselves and Sinn Fein. Therefore the most likely source of the killing was Sinn Fein. Does he really know what he is talking about? The really sad thing is that he actually sounded pleased, as he indicated the DUP has been vindicated. Unbelievable!
The public will never know difinitively, but if you take the scenario that rogue rather than dissident republicans did this, then that is quite disturbing.
Would that be a signal that things between those in favour of the Adams plan are under attack from people within their own organisation?
Could it be the re-assertion of a new IRA?
Is the peace now rather than the process under attack.
It’s very disturbing development.
There seems to be an awful lot of speculation going on, with very few facts to work on. PIRA? Dissident Reps? Securocrats (aka The Booggiemen)?
Do any of them have a history of using shotguns? I don’t think so. Maybe it was someone with a personal grudge, who didn’t have access to the usual weaponry. Why not wait a few days and see what the Garda come up with.
I see a number of pro-Provo posters have raised the old ‘what would the PIRA have to gain by doing this? Nothing.’ gambit once again.
Have we really reached the point where no matter how obvious it is that the PIRA is involved in something, that some people will state this, as if it means that the Provos are incapable of doing anything illegal?
Come off it people.
I know what the tactic here is – it is to set up a scenario where everyone eventually accepts that the Provos couldn’t possibly do anything illegal any longer because the risk is too high. And that would be very good cover for the Provos taking advantage of that assumption.
The result would be that the PIRA could do anything, and people would simply say ‘oh, it couldn’t have been the Provos – they would have nothing to gain by doing that’. Thus the PIRA could commit any atrocity and people would accept the ‘they have nothing to gain by doing that’ doctrine on the basis that carrying out such an atrocity would represent too much risk for the Provos to take.
It’s madness. That doctrine would encourage the PIRA to do whatever they want, and they would get away with it in the court of public opinion. Things would have been turned upside down. Instead of accepting that the PIRA is fighting for Ireland, the assumption would be that the PIRA isn’t fighting for Ireland any longer, so any violence that happens can’t be caused by them.
Take this Donaldson case. Some are saying that it would be too risky for the PIRA to kill him, or that the PIRA has nothing to gain by killing him, but if such thinking is generally accepted, then wouldn’t that be perfect cover for the PIRA to actually kill him? Since the assumption is that they wouldn’t dare do so.
Normally I wouldn’t give this a second thought but considering recent developments in Narnia ….
Is there any real proof he is actually dead? Will we ever know?
Forgive my ignorance on this issue for I am still out of the country but some of the therioes of this mans death strike me as odd.
If it were as a number have suggested the IRA, why would they do it now? Why not when Donaldson was just revealed or if possible if they knew just prior to this? Also why leave the body where he can be easily found it makes no sense to me. I am no Sinn Fein supporter either I just dont see the rationale for it being an IRA murder.
If it were as others were suggesting MI5/other government entities, why would they take the risk of murdering someone in another country? Surely the potential political fall out would be too big a risk.
I feel that there is much more to this issue than we yet know, so many things about it dont at least to me make sense yet. Although this may have been covered by news sources I havent had access to.
The Provos have nothing to gain from this. It comes on the very day the 2 govts were due to announce their proposals for a return to powersharing. I would suspect then that the dissidents might have been involved, or maybe the British securocrats who want to make sure Donaldson’s secrets remain just that.
“Take this Donaldson case. Some are saying that it would be too risky for the PIRA to kill him, or that the PIRA has nothing to gain by killing him, but if such thinking is generally accepted, then wouldn’t that be perfect cover for the PIRA to actually kill him? Since the assumption is that they wouldn’t dare do so.”
I see Harpo is a fan of the Princess Bride poision scene!
A question for all has the media any questions to answer on this one? The Sunday World went out of its way to find DD and what for a indepth interview on Stormontgate no a doorstep to expose his location and how he was living. This morning on Radio Foyle i think i might have detected some guilt from the reporter who found DD Hugh Jordan when he said that they done everything in their power not to identify the location. Aye right.
Second observation on this thread many speak of not being able to believe republicans and go on to lay the blame for this murder at the doorstep of the IRA. I dont think anyone should rule out the possibility of security services. Who would have believed the morning after Pat Finucanes murder that the guy who supplied the intelligence was an agent, the guy who supplied the guns was an agent and at least one of the gunmen was an agent? So I do not know who did this but the only one who have denied this are the IRA his handlers or any of their allies deny it.