Sunday Sequence includes a debate between Anthony McIntrye, Blanket editor, and Brian Kelly, one of the former on-line publication’s contributors and signatory to a letter attacking the Editor for his decision to publish the now infamous Danish cartoons. There’s to be a public meeting at Queen’s University (Froggat Centre), organised by the Anti-Racism Network, during the week on the matter.
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Harry Flashman, who is the horse with the mouth? Malachi or Anthony, who. and because they say its not race its not race.
what are you a drone?
Brian Kelly, what time is the meeting on thursday nite at queens froggat centre? is it open to the general public.
Felix,
I did look at your site, but it seems that a world where Israel can do no wrong does not meet the established reality. If you really want examples of bad things that Israel has done, then try google: even Israelis protest against their government. Note that I am a supporter of Israel’s right to exist.
As for Srebrenica: try the wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre in which you will note that even the Bosnian Serb side has officially admitted the number of killed Muslims and expressed regrets for the massacre in 2004.
Yes we have a serious enemy in “Islamofascism”. But to deny massacres and paint Israel as perfect does no-one any favours and plays into the hands of the enemy. Or is that your intention?
Agreed Paul. That is a disturbing admission. I urge anyone interested in this to read the Koran and make up their own mind up on what sort of ‘religion’ Islam is.
What sort of an impression of Christianity would one get from reading the bible?
Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide……..
Need I go on?
If I want to judge Islam in general, I’ll do it by considering my own personal experience of the many many moslems I come into contact with every day, everyone of whom is decent and honest, kind and considerate to their neighbours.
I’m a big supporter of the right, indeed the necessity of confronting fundamentalism, whether it be right wing Christian fundies in the MAerican bible belt, or Islamic fundamentalist from North Africa and beyond.
But to suggest that one would get a proper perspective of Islam from simply reading the Koran is just not feasible.
DK
You see, you fall into the trap again.
Take Srebrenica, you do not give any evidence to prove the Serbs carried out a massacre at Srebrenica.
What you do is refer me to an encyclopedia.
And the encyclopedia is made up of lies and prejudices. After all it is written by people and these people may or may not be telling the truth.
They may be biased and be liars or they may be relying on the evidence of “eye-witnesses” etc who may be biased.
You see you have produced NO evidence.
And that in fact is how the Media works.
If you had examined to take just one example the case of the Birmingham Six you would find the same thing.
The Media is one of the biggest problems we have.
On Israel when you use a search engine like google you will again not find evidence. You will find assertions. And if there is evidence it is up to YOU to bring it forward…you made the attacking allegation against Israel.
Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.
Yes Tafkabo please go on.
The old testament is a common heritage for Jews, Christians and Mosloms.
Show me where in the NT Christ or christians advocate “Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide”
You can judge religion how you like, but to deny the central primacy of the Koran for muslims, where unlike Christianity the Koran is the literal word of God, i mean word for word, the word of God and Muhammad’s gift to the world is to show you don’t understand Islam.
I was brought up living next door to muslims. i know they are good people. Even when their daughter was involved in an arranged marriage and didn’t mind that her husband had been married before, because it didn’t count because she was only British. I still know they are good people. But i also know how the Koran affects this moderate families thinking. There are many more stories but that would be unfair to a basically good family to repeat them.
But i have also been to southern Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Northern India, West Africa, Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordon and many other places besides. I also have made my mind up including all my experiences. And as i have said, there are millions of good moslem people and many have helped me out on my journies.
But the Koran has precedence, and it has problems involving violence and unbelievers that other religions i have come across don’t.
Anyway that’s it for me tonight. I am still in Asia now and it is quite late.
Felix Quigley asserts that “Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.”
Well you had better have lots of it, son. I seriously worry about a vocal supporter of Israel denying an act of genocide. Or maybe those bodies photgraphed by my friend Gilles Peress were placed there by the Bosnians themselves. http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/99-2NRsummer99/Shattuck.html
Maybe they jumped into those Srebrenica ditches just to give Ratko Mladic a bad name, because Muslims are all lemmings, aren’t they?
Just like Shabra and Shatila? Or was that a product of the imagination of the Israeli judicial commission that nailed Ariel Sharon for the filthy deed.
This thread has drastically moved on from the’offense’ of the cartoons. There is a man writing comments to this website and he is spreading the vilest lies to suit an agenda that seems partly motivated by paranoia of the west and a nasty attitude towards one-fifth of the planet’s population.
Look, read and heed. There is a real problem with Islamophobia here, and it’s not coming from cartoons or those who publish them in the name of free expression or open debate.
Felix,
I’m interested in giving people as broad a page to write on as I possibly can within the law. The politics of your output is not why I don’t link to your blog, it’s the reliability of that output.
I also think that the guys at the Blanket would dispute the idea that I somehow favour them with attention. They don’t feature here that often.
Truth is I try to follow stories not individuals or organisations. If I think someone has a good thought provoking line, I’ll link to whether it is pro or anti whatever it is you’re having yourself.
Your consistent pro-Israeli line is a good and positive thing in and of itself. You have ensured a diversity on Slugger at times when some factions on here had perhaps been over energetic in asserting their own view as an orthodox consensus.
You also have something of a track record in terms of making ill founded ad hominem attacks on other individuals. If you continue in that vein, I would have no choice but to ban you from Slugger altogether.
Now back to the topic in hand!
apologies for the length of the following, but there is a lot to respond to.
felix quigley:
you wrote above
‘To call the Jews of Israel Nazis after what they have suffered at the hands of the Nazis is not a casual statement but a deep and carefully thought out statement of the most evil intent. McIntyre and Kelly and many others here have done just that!’
this is the second time in the past several days that you have asserted that i have called ‘the jews of israel’ nazis. this is a lie. i have asked mick to remove these assertions, and will call on you to put up or shut up. trawl the blanket, the entire internet, and provide us with the cite. or desist.
reader:
in future you will have to do your own legwork, but the original source for the rose quote is ‘Cartoon ruckus heightens Danes’ identity crisis,’ by Dan Bilefsky, International Herald Tribune: Monday 13 February 2006. you can read the piece and judge for yourself whether this is a benign statement. it is not, in my opinion.
a january 1 article in the same paper (well worth reading for its depiction of tensions between the danish host and muslim immigrant community, the context for the cartoon contoversy) reports that muslims feel that ‘the cartoons reflect an intensifying anti-immigrant climate that is stigmatizing minorities and radicalizing young Muslims.’ harry can call this racism or anti-muslim prejudice or whatever else he wants–as i say, i’m not concerned about the semantics, but it fits with what i’ve asserted throughout, that this provocation came in the context of a growing, general vilification of muslims in denmark, led by the right-wing parties and by the j-p under rose.
another article by bilefsky on 14 february describes rose’s guardianship of the j-p’s culture section thus:
‘When he became cultural editor, Rose immediately put his stamp on the section, eschewing soft stories on film, theater and museums in favor of harder-edged pieces, often dealing with Islamic themes. These ranged from stories on the indictment of nude models in Iranian art classes as pornographers to interviews with feminists who were protesting the oppression of women in Islam.
“Rose used the section to wage ideological campaigns,” Juhl said. “It was ‘Islam this’ and ‘Islam that,’ or attacks against the left.”
When the son of Che Guevara proposed exhibiting his father’s photography in Denmark, colleagues said, Rose refused to cover the event because of Guevara’s Marxism…. Colleagues say he also waged a campaign to remove a statue of Lenin from a workers’ museum in Copenhagen, believing it had no place in liberal Denmark.
Above all, some colleagues said, Rose has been obsessed with the growing conflict between Islam and the West.’
it is this obsession, no doubt, that led rose to publish a puff piece on bush admin neo-con daniel pipes who, among other things, initiated campus watch–basically a mccarthyist website dedicated to ‘exposing’ american academics with pro-palestinian sympathies. nice bedfellows these defenders of ‘free speech’ surround themselves with.
moreover, rose’s championing of free speech and the harmlessness of satire apparently does have limits. here:
‘Denmark risked becoming embroiled in a new culture clash – this time with the world’s Jewish community – after the Danish editor behind the Muhammad caricatures said he was willing to publish cartoons about the Holocaust.
“My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them,” Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, told CNN on Wednesday.
But his comments were quickly followed by a denial from the newspaper that it had any intention of publishing satires of the Jewish genocide.
Rose, a former correspondent who has worked in Iran, said in an interview in December that he would not publish caricatures of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel strangling a Palestinian baby since such an image could be construed as racist.’
now, for the record: i would strongly oppose any attempt to publish cartoons making light of the jewish holocaust, and would have resigned from the blanket if its co-editors had chosen to do so. i only include this to point out the double-standards that seem to be at work.
last point, i promise:
i accept that i was wrong in asserting that mcintyre came up with the muslim action committee ‘out of thin air.’ that is not true, although he had the name wrong and i assumed he meant the mbc. reader is correct that i should have waited for mcint’s clarification.
but i have this afternoon had a very interesting conversation with the author of the piece which reader posted, Ismaeel-Haneef Hijazi, in the course of which i discovered a number of things. first, the mac ‘represents’ 700 mosques etc. only in a very nominal sense, in that these organizations have signed on to a single-issue campaign, and bring to that a variety of perspectives—how many would agree with hijazi’s assertion that this is purely a religious affront and not a manifestation of anti-muslim racism/prejudice is impossible to determine. i discovered also that the piece was written as part of a polemic against socialists in the Respect party. hijazi was explicitly concerned because the Socialist Workers’ Party in Britain was having some success in recruiting muslims and that they were, and this is a direct quote, “regurgitating socialist ideology,” which in the authors’ view is incompatible with islam.
[for the record, i told hijazi that i disagreed with his position.]
the piece is therefore written by an individual who is attempting to hold the line against the radicalization of (mainly young) muslims by an organization committed to a secular worldview. it makes perfect sense that he would therefore go out of his way to depict the cartons controversy in the way that he has.
all of this is interesting, as well, because of course mcintyre and other who subscribe to the notion made explicit in the ‘manifesto’ that we are confronted by a struggle between ‘theocrats and democrats’ also charge that the left is involved involved in an unprincipled alliance with—as anthony put it to me—theocratic fascists. that explains his incredibly vicious red-baiting on air yesterday.
but hijazi’s concern to keep this non-political, to deny publicly at least that there is a strong anti-immigrant and racist element to it, is telling in that it confirms that elements within britain’s diverse Islamic community are concerned that the collaboration with the left in the antiwar movement and in the fight against anti-muslim bigotry is undermining the hold that conservatives and traditionalists have within that community. this confirms precisely the point made in the article i cited a very long way back in this thread—neil davidson’s excellent piece on ‘islam and the enlightenment’: that it is in joint work against the truly reactionary forces now in their third year of occupation in iraq (and now gathering to rain bombs down on iran) that the possibility for building an alternative across the world exists. the racist provocation executed by the danish right and now taken up by the blanket can only have the opposite effect.
Show me where in the NT Christ or christians advocate “Rapes, incest, bloody murder, torture, sectarian hate, genocide”
Abucs
Why should I show you?
I was talking about the Bible, which contains both the old and new testaments.
Show me when Christianity parted company with the old testament, stopped using it as a guide, and I’ll accept your point.
Last I checked, many fundamentalist Christians were using passages from books such as Leviticus as a pretext for Homophobia and other forms of hate.
And as for the fairy tales in Genesis, now being promoted as science, in some quarters…….
Dear Felix,
Sure the whole Holo-hoax was a lie fabricated by the world-Zionist movement and their puppets in the media. I mean, can you really prove that it happened? David Irving had the guts to stand up and tell the truth about it and the Zionists had their stooges in Austria bang him up. So much for free speech eh!
Sorry to hear about you mate Milosevic. He was a great man, the victim of a giant conspiracy perpetrated by Madeline Albright. May eh rest in peace.
elFascist
Before anyone reponds I shouold add that these are not my real views but merely a parody of Felix’s views on events elsewhere. He is trivialising – even denying – the murders of people who were murdered solely becasue they were perceived as belonging to the wrong religion or ehtic group.
Brenda
You ask me am I a drone (a what? Like a male bee or an unmannned spy craft?) so in the same vein I ask you, are you blind? Or just incapable of reading posts?
The post I referred to was the one directly above mine, from reader at 12.10 am. In which he explicitly states that the reason he and his co-religionists are offended is because the cartoons were an affront to their religion and not their various races.
I would take his word on this rather than yours or brian kelly’s because judging from his comments he is actually, you know, a Muslim.
I’ll try not to drone Brenda if you try to read the posts, that a deal?
Brian Kelly
I find this on the Blanket Site
Using the Google search on the Blanket
“Is there a danger that the world may to begin to look upon Israel as the moral equivalent in our own times of a Nazi Germany? This ‘moral equivalence in our …
lark.phoblacht.net/wallshahid.html – 41k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnthony McIntyre • 27 May 2004. Last Saturday morning, along with perhaps … Did the Nazis target animals? The Israeli Army destroyed the only zoo in Gaza. …
lark.phoblacht.net/gazaam.html – 46k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current Articles’Whether we are dealing with the racism of Nazi Germany, or apartheid South Africa or Israel, or the racism being suffered by ethnic minorities in Ireland, …
lark.phoblacht.net/oneeye.html – 49k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnthony McIntyre • 4 February 2004. Last week, near the official residence … Only the day previous Israel killed eight Palestinians. But the Irish Times, …
lark.phoblacht.net/getsgivesam.html – 39k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesFor some reason, tomes on Nazi Germany were plentiful. … Similar feelings visited me when I read of the 13 Israeli troops killed in Gaza earlier this …
lark.phoblacht.net/ssgenam.html – 43k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesFirst, he posits that the creation of Israel was not an “act of Western colonialism,” … Should the Palestinians have ceased their resistance because Nazi …
lark.phoblacht.net/lernersaid.html – 66k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesAnd the occupation of Palestinian land by Israeli state forces bears more resemblance to the Nazi lebensraum concept than those activities of Hamas or the …
lark.phoblacht.net/needleam.html – 41k – En caché – Páginas similares ”
Do I have to spell it out for you. Reference above to the “Nazi lebensraum”.
And that is only the start. It has taken me only about 4 minutes so it is not exhaustive.
felix:
not a single of these citations was penned by me.
i want you to have a look at my writing, and produce a single quote in which i ‘call israeli jews nazis,’ which is what you’ve asserted i’ve done. if you cannot find such an instance, then i want you to retract your statement, above, that i have done so. very simple.
Brian Kelly again
However when one places on the search these words which refer to the key article by kelly
“Zionism, Palestine & The Spirit of the Warsaw Ghetto. Brian Kelly. Avoiding Park Benches Anthony McIntyre. A Case For Change Ciarán Irvine …
lark.phoblacht.net/archivesjune02.html – 52k – En caché – Páginas similares
THE BLANKET * Index: Current ArticlesZionism, Palestine & THE Spirit of THE Warsaw Ghetto. Brian Kelly. Avoiding Park Benches Anthony McIntyre. a Case for Change Ciarán Irvine …
lark.phoblacht.net/cidecenen.html – 36k – Resultado Suplementario –
Nothing comes up.
Going from memory Kelly in this article argues that Zionism is indeed a fascist ideology.
He also states in the article that it would have been preferable if Jews had tried integration in the host country rather than setting up Israel.
But the most integrationist of all Jews were the German Kews and see where that got them.
Kelly did not explain where integrationism got the German Jews.
I will return to this article again when I find it. In the meantime Kelly can tell us where he wrote to disagree with McIntyres linking of Israel with Nazi.
Spartacus. Who are you? I never referred to you. I do not know your name or your politics.
I am Spartacus!
John O’Farrell
You wrote above quoting me:
“Felix Quigley asserts that “Once again the Srebrenica massacre story is a NATO, Media, and Islamist (The Bosnian Muslim Government was Islamofascist and was led by an ex Nazi and Islamofascist) lie. My site http://www.isill.blogspot.com will soon place the evidence for this.”
I repeat to you and to everybody that the Serbs on retaking Srebrenica did not carry out the Srebrenica massacre, so called by the Media.
Is O’Farrell the writer on the Guardian. I do not know so, it is a common Irish name, but if so it would explain a lot because in my opinion the two most anti-Serb papers were the Guardian and the Independent.
I will take the issue first of the Bosnian Muslim Government being Islamofascist and being led by an Islamofascist.
Read this about Izetbegovic
“BOSNIAN PRESIDENT – AYATOLLAH KHOMEYNI’S RIGHT HAND MAN
——————————————————————————–
——————————————————————————–
The basic facts of just what caused the conflict in ex-Yugoslavia are, still, not presented to the general public in the West…
Alija Izetbegovic
Source: AP
To understand Bosnian Muslims one should understand their leader: self proclaimed “President of Bosnia”, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
——————————————————————————–
A few (very few) articles were writen in the western media about the fact: THE LEADER OF BOSNIAN MUSLIMS IS THE LEADING FIGURE IN THE MURKY ISLAM FUNDAMENTALIST WORLD.s
“Islamic Affairs Analyst” (IAA) publishes studies about Islamic world since 1935. IAA is published 45 times a year, in Great Britain… With the beginning of the civil war in Bosnia, in 1992, they wrote:
Excerpts from issue of IAA entitled “MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISM IN BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA” published in 1992:
(Quote:)
There is a great reluctance in the West to recognize that the fighting in Bosnia is a resurgence of the conflict between Islam and Christendom which shaped five centuries of Balkan history.
Disbelief in the West regarding Muslim fundamentalism in Bosnia stems from several causes, among which there is a pervasive, compulsive, complacency which holds that things can never be as bad as they seem, hence European officialdom refused to believe that Hitler meant what he wrote in Mein Kampf.
President Alija Izetbegovic’s Islamic Declaration, first published in 1970 when it earned him a prison sentence, demanded a fully-fundamentalist Muslim state in Bosnia without scope for non-Muslim institutions or any division between religion, politics, and economics. The book was republished in 1990 in Sarajevo (by Mala Muslimanska Biblioteka). It scathingly attacks Attaturk’s reforms and holds up Pakistan as a model to be followed.
…. ….
Traditionally, Bosnians were among the most militant in the Muslim world. A ruling minority, they were proud of being the spearhead of the jihad into Europe, part of the two-pronged drive along Sava and Danube with Rome as its final objective. Occupation by the Habsburgs in 1878 caused some of them to emigrate, but others waited for fate to redeem them.
(end quote)
——————————————————————————–
But the story goes on. Only fifty years ago Serbs were subject to a genocide in Bosnia. The geographic district, under Nazi occupation, was part of Nazi Independent State of Croatia…
For decades Encyclopedia Britannica had the following sentence when talking about WWII in Yugoslavia: “…IN BOSNIA… THE CROATIAN FASCISTS BEGAN A MASSACRE OF SERBS WHICH, IN THE WHOLE ANNALS OF WORLD WAR II, WAS SURPASSED FOR SAVAGERY ONLY BY THE MASS EXTERMINATION OF POLISH JEWS”!!!!!!!!
One can find the above sentence in all versions of Britannica from at least 1971 till 1987.
And who joined Nazi Croats in slaughtering the Serbs? You’ve guessed it: The Muslims! ”
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/alija.html
So, That is the history. And it is the history of not very long ago. here it is suggested that the Bosnian Muslims were historically not the peaceful people and the victims that thjey are depicted by the Media.
“The most militant in the Muslim world”, and the “spearhead of the Jihad”.
That has NEVER been described in the Media in relation to the events of the 90s.
That fact has been kept hidden.
Could it be that Clinton, NATO and the Media wanted us to think that the Serbs were the Nazis and that the Croats and the Muslims were well just…nice, gentle and peaceloving
John O’Farrell again
You give the url above for a certain site. The article in question is called “Confronting the Abuses of Human Rights
In the Post-Cold War Era, Ethnic Conflicts Result in War Crimes
By John Shattuck
Crimes of War: What the Public Should Know
Edited by Roy Gutman and David Rieff
W.W. Norton & Company. 399 Pages.
$35 hc. $19.95 pb. ”
So the article stating that the Serbs carried out genocide is by this guy John Shattuck. Who is he is the first question I would ask.
At the end of the article it tells us:
“John Shattuck is United States Ambassador to the Czech Republic and former Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labor, 1993-98. He and Hume have been married since 1991. ”
I am not too interested in who Shattuck marries but I sure as hell am to know that he was a US Ambassador to of all places “The Czech Republic”.
At what period, that would make it even more interesting.
I am sorry, John O’Farrell, I do not take anything the CIA writes whether directly or indirectly and it is always the latter, without a hundred thousand checks, and then some”.
I do not want to destroy your argument in this way but really! You must imagine you are dealing with an idiot here! If ever there was a questionable quote or reference in an argument then this is it.
I think that one deserves to be framed and hung on my wall to remind me of this occasion. A joke, eh!
The article contains very lurid pictures of bodies and of mass graves. But who are the bodies? I hope to come to that later!
Felix,
It seems that you are intent on drawing this into an ad hominem bun fight.
Here’s a mild but perfect example in your reply to John O’F:
“if so it would explain a lot”.
The problem is not simply that you are prepared to make groundless accusations, but that you are tearing whole conversations up in order to make your point.
Mick
Are you going to let me make my argument against the guy or are you going to ban me right now.
So is this the John O’Farrell who writes for the Guardian?
Can I venture to suggest that IN MY OPINION the Media as a whole and the Guardian and the Independent in particular were anti-Serb, ie biassed.
I do not ABSOLUTELY need to know that. I am just responding to what he writes above. But in my book it IS relevant.
This is a new one on me. Tearing up conversations. Is that NOT what this kind of debate is about.
You listen very carefully to what a person says. If you disagree you say so, and you DO tear up their conversation.
I am sorry mick we are talñking about damned serious issues here.
He alleges the Serbs massacred 8000 Muslims at Srebrenica. I say not. That it was a Media fix. Just like that photo remember!
He then goes on to accuse Israel of the Sabra and Shatilla massacre when it was carried out by other Arabs.
And so on, not forgetting the NATO bombning of Yugoslavia and the NATO bombing of the Chinese Embassy. And not forgetting the poisoning and murder, IN THEIR PRISON, of Milosevic.
So why weign in on this point.
It would explain to me his position if he was a writer for the Guardian.
I am not making ANY groundless assertions here and I have not done. On McIntyre’s linking of Israel with the Nazi state I have hundreds of examples of same.
Now can I continue my reply to O’Farrell, Guardian writer or not, he has stated things there that I can prove false. I am coming to the issue of the bodies and the mass graves.
It’s true that the Bosnian Moslems fought for the Nazis (in the SS to be precise), but they were unreliable and mostly got disbanded. The Croats were much better troops. But then some citizens in all of occupied Europe fought for Germany – even the Serbians (Serbian Cetniks openly collaborated with the Axis). And citizens fought against Germany – yes, even Bosnian Moslems.
It means nothing. And I am begining to suspect that Felix has an anti-moslem thing, rather than a pro-Israel thing.
Felix,
Can I point you back to the Commmenting Policy above. Which part of ‘ball not man’ do you not understand. Whether John writes for the Guardian is as irrelevant to this conversation as the fact that your write for Israpundit. What you/he says is all we are interested in.
It can also lead to the kind of hot water you got yourself into when you falsely accused another Irish blogger of having anti Israeli views on the strength of one interview with a prominent Palestinian official in which he let the gentlemen in question speak rather than cut across him.
Ripping up an opponent’s contribution is permissable. Ripping up conversations is not. The first is about engagement, the second about disengagement.
O’Farrell claims that I have a nasty attitude to Muslims. I reply that indeed HE has got a nasty attitude to the Muslim masses.
I am opposed to Islamofascism which is the political ideology inside the Muslim masses. In order to be free these Muslim masses will have to free themselves from this fascist ideology.
I am saying to O’Farrell that this is not separate from the Cartoon issue.
The cartoon issue is really all about the threat of Islamofascism towards the people of the West, in Madrid, London and New York and to the Muslim people in places like Iraq as well.
Muslim people will have to deal with this fascist ideology sooner or later IF they are to be free. I am on THEIR side but O’Farrell is not.
O’Farrell has NOTHING to say, nor did McCann in his answer to me, about the Islamofascists who now lead the Palestinian Arab movement. The Islamofascists of the Hamas I of course have in mind. (Please do not be a gay in todays Palestine)
They are linked directly to the Islamofascist Government in Iran which has threatened to wipe Israel off the map.
.
There was killing of a savage nature but it was carried out by the Islamofascists in the years before 1995.
I end this answer to O’Farrell at this point (I will carry on the struggle for truth and clarity on my own site) by referring to this article by the Toronto Star in 1996:
The Toronto Star
July 16, 1995, Sunday, Sunday Second Edition
Section: NEWS; Pg. A1
Length: 816 Words
Headline: Fearsome Muslim warlord eludes Bosnian Serb forces
Byline: Bill Schiller Toronto Star
Dateline: Belgrade, Yugoslavia
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia – When Bosnian Serb commander Gen. Ratko Mladic swept triumphantly into Srebrenica last week, he not only wanted to sweep Srebrenica clean of Muslims – he wanted Nasir Oric.
In Mladic’s view, the powerfully built Muslim commander had made life too difficult and too deadly for Serb communities nearby.
Even though the Serbs had Srebrenica surrounded, Oric was still mounting commando raids by night against Serb targets. (Note, this was even when the UN had supposedly declared a safe area, but it was not safe for the MINORITY Serbs in outlying farming districts. The UN NEVER disarmed the Muslim Islamofascists…FQ)
Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as ever crossed a battlefield, escaped Srebrenica before it fell. Some believe he may be leading the Bosnian Muslim forces in the nearby enclaves of Zepa and Gorazde. Last night these forces seized armored personnel carriers and other weapons from U.N. peacekeepers in order to better protect themselves.
Oric is a fearsome man, and proud of it.
I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.
“We ambushed them,” he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: “We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”
Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.
These video reminiscences, apparently, were from what Muslims regard as Oric’s glory days. That was before most of eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica became a “safe zone” with U.N. peacekeepers inside – and Serbs on the outside.”
So the Bosnian Muslims, and especially the leadership part of the Bosnian Muslims which was Islamofascist (there were other Bosnian Muslim leaders who were pro-Serb and ANTI Islamist who were wiped out by the Islamofascists)were not all hapless victims, as the Media portrayed.
Many of these Serbian villages were wiped out by these Islamofascist “warriors” in those years of the early 90s. In fact from what I read Slobodan Milosevic had withdrawn the Serb Army as a “gesture” and left the area defenceless!
A connected point, part, just part of the answer to the body and graves issue and to O’Farrell’s use of the US report… many of the graves excavitated by the Hague were in exactly those areas.
So how many of THOSE bodies that O’Farrell produces were actually Serb bodies.
At the very least from the above quote by the Toronto Star you can say that this particular Islamofascist Bosnian was not somebody you would like to have an argument with. Today he lives happily running a disco. And the Serbs are being hunted by the Hague NATO court. And it is with NATO and the Islamofascists that O’Farrell lines up.
Felix,
The fact that bodies from the mass graves have been identified as Muslims sort of disproves your comment “many of the graves excavitated by the Hague were in exactly those areas”. Dragan Čavić, the president of Republika Srpska, has acknowledged in a televised address that Serb forces killed several thousand civilians in violation of the international law, and asserted that Srebrenica was a dark chapter in Serb history. You’d think that maybe he’d not say that if there were any doubt.
Lots of sources, although the wikipedia site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre) is probably the best pointer to them. It even mentions the revisionists like yourself & gives links.
Just in case anyone is still interested in the debate about publishing the cartoons, and its fallout, they should be made aware that the Swedish Foreign Minister was obliged to resign today because of okaying a misuse of her office to prevent a neo-Nazi site from publishing the cartoons. She made it look like a national security issue, and has rightly paid the price of her political interference. The Swedish public overwhelmingly favored her going.
This should correct some claims that European governments and countries are willing to put up with any censorship to satisfy the Islamoterrorists.
As I said before the consultation of encyclopedia proves nothing. Not written by God DK.
O´Farrell tried to say that I had a nasty attitude towards Muslims, in other words that I am a racist. Written in that special journalistic hypocritical style but there is no doubt he was referring to me.
I then explained that if you are a gay in Palestine today you are in some trouble. If you are a woman and you chance to have an extra-marital affair…not a good idea to be in Gaza. If you are a Christian ditto. And if you are a Jew in Gaza…oh I forgot thanks to the Bush Government, Sharon and Olmert there aren’t any! It is Judenfrei just as those Islamists like it.
That is the contradiction in McIntyre’s position on the Cartoon issue. It is about Islamofascism right!
So what is McIntyre’s position NOW that the Palestinians have went straight to the kill (of those pesky Jews) and elected the outight Islamofascists of Hamas.
The central question also for O’Doherty, and certainly the central question for Brian Kelly.
Now there is a man who has equated the Israeli state (which was set up with the approval of 99.9 per cent of Jews world wide) with the German Nazi state.
Anthony McIntyre has done this so often and in so many articles on the Blanket it would take ages to repeat.
Brian Kelly has thrown a challenge down to me as to this issue of Jews and Israel. His attack on Israel is unlike his attack on any other country in the world. What IS the name for that Mick?
I would like to know on this site here and now does Kelly defend, never mind support, the right of the Jews to have their own state and that this state is Israel. That would clear up things.
Do the Jews of this world have the right to have THEIR state, Just as the Arabs have at the last count 22 such states, and the Irish have THEIR state, and the protestants of the north have their state, the English theirs and so on.
It is a very simple question.
And the Bosnian Moslems have the right to their state… What about them Felix?
Brian Kelly
You have been linked to the Blanket for a long time and now your articles have possibly been removed (whether you see that as a positive or negative I am not sure)
Anyway I have a copy of your infamous article on the Warsaw ghetto. (!”.06.2002)
I will quote only the first paragraph though the whole of the article is an attempt to link the Israeli state with the Nazis.
“The supreme irony of Israel’s recent re-invasion of Palestinian towns in the West Bank is that its incursions coincided with the anniversary of another hopeless confrontation between an impoverished and vastly outgunned population and a racist occupying army-the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. In April and May of 1943, a handful of Jewish socialists and militants trapped in the crumbling Polish ghetto resolved that, although they could not possibly defeat Hitler’s war machine, they would go down fighting, inflicting “maximum damage” in the process. The key question for militants, one of the few survivors recalled, was “How should we die?” Today it is the Palestinian fighters in towns like Jenin, Ramallah and Bethlehem who best epitomize the spirit of the Warsaw resistance. The actions of the Israeli Defence Forces, by contrast, confirm that the Zionist state has adopted the bone-crushing tactics and the xenophobic mentality of the most vicious Jew-haters in history. ”
Now that is some claim and some assertion to make. (You leave out of course that the Israeli Army took the fight to the terrorists in jenin, it had become a veritable bomb-making factory to send young killers on suicide missions.)
Your claim then from the above is…that the Jews who were able to escape from the Nazi Holocaust have set up a Nazi state. And that state is Israel in your eyes.
I do not think it is possible to invent a more studied insult to the nation of the Jews whether inside Israel or in the Diaspora.
There is no getting away from it that is your position.
That is also despite the cartoon publication at the very nature of the Blanket. I can quote you about 20 articles in which that site has done the very same ie link the Israeli state to the Nazi state of Hitler.
It is a tactic which is used by the Palestine Solidarity Group which wishes the destruction of Israel.
The question now is…what is all your positions when the Palestinian Arabs have went the whole way and elected the openly Fascist Hamas into power.
No time to be a woman in Gaza, eh. But the FemiNazis like you are silent on that one.
I still believe as I said at the beginning that you and mcIntyre on the issue of the Jew-hating Palestinian Islamofascists have probably got everything in common. You still support them. Why not stay together then. McCann too.
I am still waiting to hear your position on the election of Hamas…
I will just take one article and one extract from Anthony McIntyre. It is one among possibly hundreds in which the Blanket makes the link between the nazi state and Israel.
It is on the 27 May 2004 edition of The Blanket:
“Certainly, what there is to be read about Gaza in recent weeks bears a striking similarity to what Goldhagen wrote of Poland under Nazi occupation. There was no milk for babies, no means for women about to give birth to get to hospital, no electricity, no water. It is a place where even ambulances are shelled. Did the Nazis target animals? The Israeli Army destroyed the only zoo in Gaza. And what animals they didn’t kill they stole as loot. The region was saturated with tanks, bulldozers, planes and helicopters. Contrast this mechanised phalanx with the donkey carts used by Palestinians to escape the terror.
The passion for murdering Palestinian children which seems to pervade Israeli military personnel was all too evident. When Goldhagen details how one Nazi killer would lift Jewish infants off the ground by their hair, hold them aloft and then put a bullet through their brains, before dropping them into a mass grave, all escape routes open to revulsion are, hopefully, immediately closed off within our minds. Are we supposed to employ the alibi of context and feel less revolted by the actions of Israeli military child slayers? They murdered Rawan Mohammed Said Abu Ziad just short of her fifth birthday; her crime – going to the shop to buy sweets at 10 in the morning. Then 14 year old Asma Mughayar, her life snuffed out by an Israeli sniper as she brought in clothes from the roof of her home. Ahmed, her brother and two years younger, murdered while feeding his birds.
And in the next but one paragraph he goes on like this:
“How people in Gaza sustain their faith in anything that exalts life is one of the modern wonders of our world. As puzzling, how a body of people with an acute sense of its own history could produce and perfect a murder machine such as the Israeli Army Einsatzgruppen. Kofi Annan may look at these paradoxes and then wax ethical before informing the Israeli government that its action is inhumane. But as Peter Murtagh, writing in the Irish Times asserts, Annan’s United Nations is an organisation ‘about which Israel has shown it doesn’t give two hoots.’ And why should it? The power behind the UN throne, the United States, backs Israel and finances its war on Palestinian children. After Rwanda where the UN pulled its troops out and allowed genocide to sweep the country, Israel knows it has nothing to fear.
And when the UN refuses to strike fear in Israel and curb its murderous wrath, Palestinians will do it themselves. They will do it in crowded cafes and packed buses; they will do it at checkpoints and in settlements. Those of us who sought a just outcome will recoil in despair at the resort to such nihilistic activity. Others content to stay mute while Israel dished it out will find that their wails of disapproval will not weigh in the slightest in the deliberations of those who kiss their families good bye, strap a bomb to their bodies and walk off to do what was done to them.”
You can make of the latter part of that, despite his phrase “Nihilistic activity” what you will.
I want to home in on that sentence that fairly takes the breath away:
“As puzzling, how a body of people with an acute sense of its own history could produce and perfect a murder machine such as the Israeli Army Einsatzgruppen. ”
And that in a nutshell is my disagreement with McIntyre.
It is also why I find it puzzling how anybody in Ireland would seek to sweep this under the carpet, while all this fuss goes on about the Cartoons.
To find out and understand how angry a Jew would be please educate youself on the role of the Einsatzgruppen and what it means in Jewish (Israeli) history.
DK
Your point in my opinion is not substantial.
Yet it touches on a vital issue. One of the techniques used by the NATO made up of the US and EU was to stir up ethnic division and in fact that is the way that NATO succeeded in breaking up Yugoslavia into client states.
You may not be aware DK but there were a substantial (actually a majority) of Bosnian Muslims who were opposed to the Islamist politics of Izetbegovic.
It is also important to understand that Clinton came in on the side of Izetbegovic and against these Muslims in Bosnia who wanted a continuation of Yugoslavia.
As I said in my answer to O’Farrell Islamofascism is an ideology, a fascist ideology, inside the Muslim masses.
The Muslim masses themselves are in great danger from this ideology and from this movement.
Think in terms if you are a gay person today in Iran, or in Gaza. Quite simply your life is in great danger.
or if you are a woman. That is why the FemiNazis in Ireland should hang their head in shame for continuing to support the Gaza Islamofascists.
Felix,
Thought so – you don’t approve of a Bosnian Moslem state – never mind that Izetbegovic is long dead.
Your colours are now clear. Very sad.
I am taking your point seriously. This is because not everybody (or many) people know that the Muslim population in Bosnia was sharply divided. On the one hand were Islamofascists, on the other were ordinary muslims who did NOT want a Muslim state, but wanted the continuation of Yugoslavia. I do not think you are aware of this because you ignore this. But I am not surprised you do not know of this split because the Media never reported it and hid the real nature of the Islamofascist Izetbegovic regime. And Dk I am against the creation of an Islamofascist state ANYWHERE.
To return to the original topic, of course I support McIntyre in the publication of the Cartoons. It is a limited opposition to Islamofascism but still important, because the issue of a Free press is important.
I challenge McIntyre on the support which he gives to the Palestinians, which is a Fascist movement (I mean both the Fatah and the Hamas wings as evidenced not only in their terrorism against Israel but especially in their constitutions). McIntyre is silent on the threat by Iran to wipe Israel off the map. He and the whole neoleft in Ireland ignore the plight of women in Gaza, the plight of homosexuals in Gaza, the plight of Christians in Gaza. I pointed throughout this discussion to the contradiction in the politics of The Blanket in its support for the Jew hating and Islamofascist Palestinian movement.
There is no contradiction in the Socialist Workers Party Brian McCann though. He clearly is in support of this Islamofascist phenomenon and that really is the basis of the split among these people of the neoleft.
I have predicted that they will come together again such is the hatred of Israel and the deep support for the Fascist Palestinians whose only aim (again see their constitutions) is the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel.
O’Farrell blew heavy and hard against me on the issue of Srebrenica. When I printed evidence in the article from the Toronto News that the Bosnian Muslim regime of Izetbegovic in the area of Srebrenica was engaged in the wholesale murder and ethnic cleansing of the minority Serb farners who lived in the outlying villages what did O’Farrell do. He did nothing. he shut up. He did not acknowledge the evidence of the Toronto Star interview with the Oric guy who boasted of blowing up the Serb civilians (ie strapping them to explosives etc)
And why is this not a surprise to me. Because…
1. The media continually painted the Serbs as “evil”
2. Have hidden the fascist nature of the Islamist Izetbegovic regime. Painted them as moderates. Hid the role of the US and EU who weighed in on the side of the Islamofascist Muslim leadership and killers around Izetbegovic and destroyed the Muslim pro-Serbian moderates in Bosnia.
3. Went very easy on the neo fascist Croatian regime
4. Hid the historic roots in the Holocaust of both the Croatian regime and Bosnian Muslims. The Holocaust in the Balkans was directed against Homosexuals, Romany, jews and above all Serbs.
All of which has been reflected in this important debate. I will continue to write on these issues on http://www.isill.blogspot.com
Finally thanks to Mick Fealty for posting the issue and for allowing the debate to cover what I believe are these related issues.