Lindy McDowell: “Welcome aboard, Chas. How does it feel to be a Hun?” Despite some heavy personal media targeting of some of the more colourful members of the march, she points out this was
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How has Ulster unionism arrived at where it is today – fractured and uncertain, yet dominated electorally by the DUP, a party that tells us it offers unionists sure footing in uncertain times? In his latest book, Ulster’s Last Stand? Reconstructing Unionism after the Peace Process (Irish Academic Press, 2010), Prof. James McAuley from the [...] read our review »
The degree of raw hatred was horrifying but not especially surprising. Nobody has a monopoly on hatred on this island. If we could mine it and sell it, we’d all be rich.
I suppose the difference is that ‘we’ as Unionists are being hated by people who support political parties which espouse unity. There is a paper thin veneer of respectability on the extremes of our political spectrum and on satuarday the spides burst through it on the Republican side. It might be a social problem. It might be an alienation problem. It might be an integration problem. But it’s definitely a republican problem as it explodes Gerry’s myth of a pluralist Ireland.
Was the march intended to do this? Well if it’s Ok to believe the Garda had no idea of the scale of the violence it must be Ok to beleive that the marchers were unaware of the naked sectrarian they would unleash.
I would say this though. I would have been much more comfortable with a victims of republican violence march confronting people in the south with the reality of the suffereing of the unionist community. Conflating the march with ‘Love Ulster’ only served to dilute. obscure and make it easy for militant republicans to devalue the strong moral purpose of such a march.
BogExile (whatever the name at the bottom says!)
I read Linda’s articles regularly and most contain large doses of common sense.
Not meaning to take away from the main gist of her article about the labelling and name calling which took place but she goes into BS overdrive when stating that dozens of petrol bombs were hurled at Gardai and “hardware” was unleased.
This is further proof of what David Adams refers to as outlandish media coverage bordering on hysteria.
To the best of my knowledge there was one petrol bomb thrown and from my point of observation it was something attached to a firework.
Yes there was some vicious sectarian abuse being hurled about by individuals which can’t be denied nor defended.
What constitutes an Orange parade/march and does it need to be officially sanctioned by the Orange Order ?
I would contend not.
Does the presence of 6 Loyalist Bands, A Lambeg Drum, An Orange Stadard Flag and the parade participants/marchers wearing Orange Lilies not go a long way to making this an Orange march ?
Come on Linda – who are you trying to kid ?
piebald
What constitutes an Orange parade/march and does it need to be officially sanctioned by the Orange Order ?
Err yes it does. A parade is organised by the people or groups who organise it. The OO or a constituent part did not apply for the parade. No Lodge tried to walk on the parade. The Orange Order didn’t organise this parade so it isn’t an OO parade. Why is that so difficult to understand?
fair_deal
If it was an OO parade it was ok to riot. That’s the subtext here.
fair_deal
I don’t want to start into a philosophical dialogue on the essence of ‘orangeness’ but why is it so difficult to understand that it had all the elements of an Orange parade save the collarettes ?
Whether it was officially sanctioned by the Orange Order or not is neither here nor there.
The voices of the victims have been drowned out by the pounding of the big Lambeg.
piebald
pakman
“If it was an OO parade it was ok to riot. That’s the subtext here.”
No – if it was an OO parade which it was it is not ok to riot.
It was ok to protest though
piebald
pakman
I realise the subtext but the more you dangle the bait the more bites you get thus more evidence of the subtext.
fair_deal
the only subtext here is that the Orange Order and Orange supporters need to realise that they offer nothing to progress and reconciliation by their continued provocative coat trailing exercises.
These bring us no further to the much vaunted “Pluralist Society” being bandied about by commentators this week.
piebald
Jeez, the orange order have such a massive PR problem.
Piebald
Do you realise the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful and dare I even say it, fun! Have you ever been to a parade? Neither I nor any of my family are involved in the orange, its not something thats ingrained in me but I have to say I do enjoy attending band parades every summer. I’m heartily sick and tired of people preaching about how evil orangism is, its anything but, the vast majority of orangemen are elderly christian men who wouldn’t have a bad word to say about anyone.
I have plenty of respext for someone like Aileen Quinton. However she is making a mistake getting mixed up with people like Wille Frazer.
If it was a genuine victims march why the need for marching bands. Why the need to ‘march’ in the first place? Surely a vigil outside the Dail would have been more appropriate.
The reason Frazer went for the march with bands past the GPO was because he knew it was a provocation and he knew it would lead to trouble. Unfortunately the Minister of Justice and then the skangers decided to indulge him.
Frazer wanted trouble and he got it. Any victims who associated with him did themselves a disservice.
Piebald
“These bring us no further to the much vaunted “Pluralist Society” being bandied about by commentators this week.”
Missfitz gently chided me the other day about not engaing or being educationalist enough in my approach to other contributors. Thus I suggest piebald you educate yourself by going to a dictionary and finding out what pluralism means.
What’s with the name labelling machine?? That last comment wasn’t made by me!
This is moving from entertaining towards frustrating. Mick, what’s going ON?
The Original unreconstructed BogExile
fair-deal,
If he writes like a munter, spealls like a munter, reasons like a munter…….
BogExile
Hah – ‘speals’ – hoist by my own petard.
Bilbo
Do you realise the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful and dare I even say it, fun! Have you ever been to a parade?
Yes I realise that the vast majority of orange parades are peaceful.
Yes I have witnessed parades.
But they have a massive existential problem and most importantly they have massive relational problems with their non orange neighbours when on parade.
“vast majority of orangemen are elderly christian men who wouldn’t have a bad word to say about anyone”
I’m not sure if these people are the vast majority but when the Religious leaders take to the stage there is no fear of a crush at the front to put it mildly
piebald
Never realised there were loyalist bands at this thing in Dublin last saturday. These bands are provocative and unpleasant and no matter how you dress it in terms of cultural heritage
, community festival etc, they are meant to be provocative. The republican ones are just as unpleasant as the loyalist ones and if Willie Frazer was after a reaction from the skanger/gurrier/spide element then he was going the right way about it.
Incidentally why was this event planned for Parnell Sq, O’Connell St? My knowledge of Dublin says that, indeed, a protest near the Dail, with maybe a march round Stephen’s Green, would have reduced the skanger element considerably.
Unionists are renowned throughout the world for their pluralist values.
Discuss.
fair_deal
“Thus I suggest piebald you educate yourself by going to a dictionary and finding out what pluralism means.”
I know well what Pluralism means and that the most important values of a pluralist society are mutual respect and tolerance.
This does not mean that all diverse views must be tolerated if those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.
These should not be part of a pluralist society and in no way contribute to the “common good”.
piebald
“I know well what Pluralism means and that the most important values of a pluralist society are mutual respect and tolerance.”
pluralism – the exact opposite of the republic of Ireland
unionists are alright in dublin as long as they keep their head down and their mouth shut – same with the other minority groups. Ireland has a deeply unpleasent undercurrent of hostility to those that are not the traditional catholic, nationalist type.
Bilbo
“I do enjoy attending band parades every summer”
“dare I even say it, fun!”
Have you attended any parades in either urban or rural areas which march past non-unionist areas ?
These are much more “fun” and i would recommend you attend one of these if you ever get the chance to.
piebald
Piebald
“those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.”
Who decides that? I could define your views as that as you seem to think me walking down a public road with coloured fabric gives someone permission to hit me.
To believe that the Protestant reformation was a positive is extremist?
To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights is triumphalist?
To mark a key date in the development of democracy is sectarian?
To commemmorate the event which ensured your community survived is ascendant?
“These should not be part of a pluralist society and in no way contribute to the “common good”.”
1. Pluralism built on exclusion what dictionary are you using?
2. The people who threatened the common good on saturday were the people who rioted not the ones who complied with the law and the instructions of the authorities.
3. Don’t be wandering about with a nice mobile phone else you might provoke someone to steal it.
Well done Lindy,
Another balanced, well thought out and constructive piece of journalism…
Thankfully this type of thinly veiled bigoted journalism is a rarity among the many fine scribes that we have here (from both sides of the community).
“Incidentally why was this event planned for Parnell Sq, O’Connell St?”
many protest marches in dublin start from here. the last one i remember walking past on the way home from work was a SIPTU (i think) protest a few months ago i think. theres nothing provocative about starting here, its normal practice.
its sad but not surprising that the more extremist and unreasonable republician posters here blame the people in the march for the riotous mob trying to kill them! anything at all that could be twisted and put onto the protesters has been mentioned in the last few days. i suppose a few hundred unionists and a union jack flag is just too much of a threat in a city of around 1 million cathloics/nationalist/republicians? how could this be tolerated????
possibley the justifiers of the rioters would also justify a mob in london that attacked a St Patricks Day parade because there was a tri colour?? thankfully that wouldnt happen in london these days.
what was shown up on saturday was the simple sectarianism of the republic. it rarely raises its head because virtually everyone in the south is catholic and comes from the typical nationalist slightly anti british mould.
the problem for southerners is that they have no *concept* of it being proper/right/normal to accept an irish tradition of being pro british and a religon that is not catholic. it doesnt yet exist in their minds. ‘mono ethnic, mono cultural’ springs to mind …
in NI the needle starts at neutral and swings to either nationalism or unionism, or protestant or catholic depending on the context. people understand it is right to be accomodating to other traditions that are not their own. in the south the needle starts at nationalist, catholic, anti british, anti protestant etc. and it doesnt bend very far in any direction. nothing else can be tolerated. thats part of the reason there was so much hatred from the mob. southern soceity still has a way to go before they even *realise* that they should accept other irish traditions on an equal footing to nationalist/catholic.
you hear about the equality agenda alot from SF. i would suggest they explain what equality actually means and promote it a bit more in the south.
eranu.
SIPTU, Gay Pride, etc are not ‘putting two fingers up at 1916 and the Irish Republic’ – as Brian Walker of the Belfast Telegraph correctly described the FAIR march.
That’s why Irish republicans do not find their parades offensive or provocative.
Piebald : “those views are extremist, ascendant, sectarian and triumphalist.”
fair_deal : “Who decides that?”
Well don’t just take my word for it. Here is a little list of who decides that. I’m sure there are others which I may have missed during it’s “Glorious” history.
Late 1790′s
Governor of Armagh, Lord Gosford, gave his opinion of the new group to a meeting of magistrates: “It is no secret that a persecution is now raging in this country … the only crime is … profession of the Roman Catholic faith. A lawless banditti have constituted themselves judges …”
1823- 1845
The Orange Order was banned by the British government because of its involvement in promoting sectarian tension in Ulster. Although they were then illegal, the parades continued.
1835
a Parliamentary Committee set up to investigate the activities of the Order heard from a local magistrate, William Hancock, that: “For some time past the peaceable inhabitants of the parish of Drumcree have been insulted and outraged by large bodies of Orangemen parading the highways, playing party tunes, firing shots, and using the most opprobrious epithets they could invent…a body of Orangemen marched through the town and proceeded to Drumcree church, passing by the Catholic chapel though it was a considerable distance out of their way.”
1836
The British army used artillery to quell trouble at the annual gathering at Scarva, County Down.
1992
British Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew declared “the actions of the marchers would have disgraced a tribe of cannibals”
1996
Perth and Kinross Council banned a march, telling the County Lodge that “Intolerance, bigotry and prejudice are implicit and explicit in a march of this kind.”
piebald
Eranu,
“possibley the justifiers of the rioters would also justify a mob in london that attacked a St Patricks Day parade because there was a tri colour?? thankfully that wouldnt happen in london these days. ”
FYI: The Bloody Sunday memorial march in London, remembering those massacred and which included relatives of the victims, was attacked in 2000 by a British mob the first time it went through the centre of London.
It’s just everyone in Ireland knows that’s not how the majority of Londoners think and nobody would dare tar the entire city with one anti-Irish brush.
P.S. Even though London has a huge Irish community, the first St. Patrick’s Day Parade through the city centre only took place in 2000.
george, it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south. atleast its not a position that is given any question. thats exactly the problem, whats considered normality is to have these predjudices. southern society in general hasnt grasped this is wrong yet.
to be fair, a large part of soceity (dublin atleast) has moved on from secterian thinking.
eranu
“Have you attended any parades in either urban or rural areas which march past non-unionist areas ? ”
Indeed I have, in fact one of my favourite parades is Rosnowlagh in rural Donegal, usually policed by a mere handful of guards. Absolutely no trouble.
eranu,
.. it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south
I think that that is a very broad-brush kind of statement, and cannot be let sit.
People in the south are anti-British only in the historical sense. They are anti what Britain did to the country, and anti the Britain of the time. That is why you won’t find too many southerners ‘celebrating’ the south’s forced inclusion in the pre-1922 UK, or in the achievements of that pre-1922 UK. Most people are categorically not anti the present-day UK, where most have friends aand family, whose TV they watch, and whose football teams some support. A British person in the south is treated everywhere, and by everyone, with kindness and courtesy – one of the reasons why there are so many now living in the south.
Your accusation of anti-Protestantism in the south is simply and plainly incorrect. Neither at official nor at personal levels is there any sense of ‘anti-Protestantism’. On the contrary, it has been quite chic to be a Prod for quite some years now. Most people in the south neither know nor care what religion anyone is, and if anything, the mainstream media in the south is quite strongly anti-Catholic.
It’s funny to hear an Orange support lambasting anywhere about pluralism. It’s so laughable I just fell off my stool.
Protestant parliaments for porotestant people and all that jazz? Forget that one did we? Or did the vast majority of elderly, Christian, wouldn’t say a bad word about anyone Orangemen not support that either.
Wise up.
Eranu,
I note you gloss over the fact Irish victims were attacked in London the first time they tried to march in that city’s centre.
I could spend all day citing evidence of anti-Irish attitudes in the UK, from the fact that even today Irish prisoners are up to eight times as likely to die in custody there than other prisoners.
But let’s move on, it would get us nowhere and prove nothing.
“is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south.”
I have a word for that: bollocks.
For a start, a third of Irish children today are born outside of the Christian sacrament of marriage so where do these people stand on Protestants and Catholics?
Or what about the fact that virtually every Protestant school in the state is hopelessly oversubsribed due to “Catholic” mothers wanting to see their children educated with Protestants?
The Through Irish Eyes survey found the Irish are if anything ambivalent about Britain.
Over half of those surveyed had the UK as the first choice when asked what was the country Ireland had most in common with. A clear second was the United States with the rest also rans.
Do you really want to know who it is normal to hate in the Irish Republic?
It’s normal in Ireland to hate the shell suit Dubs and shock, horror, disbelief they hate everyone else, including especially An Garda Siochana.
And who would blame them when you hear of stories like Terence Wheelock from Summerhill, found dead in a cell.
I know if I was from Summerhill and the chance came to have a go at the shades last Saturday I’d have been sorely tempted.
Bilbo
“Indeed I have, in fact one of my favourite parades is Rosnowlagh in rural Donegal, usually policed by a mere handful of guards. Absolutely no trouble”
Glad you enjoy it
– “this is where the Orange Lodge works closely with local residents and the Gardai to ensure a peaceful day out with no hardline political speeches”
If only the OO could learn from it and apply these lessons to the North.
Another bright idea would be to not march anywhere where they would need heavy protection from the Police as Jefferry Donaldson wishes for.
piebald
“A British person in the south is treated everywhere, and by everyone, with kindness and courtesy – one of the reasons why there are so many now living in the south.”
Great ! cant wait to see the crowds of inner city dubliners welcoming the Queen on her visit to o’connell street
perhaps the british people who were marching on saturday should have waited around a bit longer for some kindness and courtesy?
im not talking about any state anti protestantism. just a certain social mind set that some southern catholics have. ive heard things said in my presence at the pub or other social places that people in belfast would never dream of saying. thats just my experiance of the last 8 years in dublin.
would love to continue this discussion but have to go home now..
Eranu
“it is though considered normal to be anti british and anti protestant here in the south”
What???? What an outrageous statement!! Total bull!!!
On to the parade…
The problem I have with the parade is the LU/Loyalist connection. Protestants have certainly suffered during the course of the troubles and many innocent protestants were murdered. These people deserve justice.
But who should spread that message? Frazer … with his own connections/support for loyalists? Or Love Ulster … bigots & terrorists? Or FAIR who think people like Robert McConnell are “innocent victims”?
Wouldn’t a FAR better approach be to hold … for example … a candle vigil outside Leinster Hse?
fair_deal
“Yes” to all the following questions
To believe that the Protestant reformation was a positive is extremist?
To believe, as the Irish protestants at that time did, that the “mere” Irish Catholics were “savages and beasts” and to treat them as such is extremist.
To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights is triumphalist?
To celebrate the introduction of a bill of rights by protestnats which exclusively benefited protestants and deliberatety excluded the vast majority of the population on the basis of their religion – yes, that’s triumphalist.
To mark a key date in the development of democracy is sectarian?
The key date you celebrate immediately ushered in a prolonged period of unparalleled sectarian persection and discrimination against the vast majority of the population. Democracy took several more centuries to emerge, so yes, marking that key date in particular is definately sectarian.
To commemmorate the event which ensured your community survived is ascendant?”
What you describe as the “survival of your community” can also be more significantly and accurately described as the subjugation and persecution of the vast majority at the hands of your community. So, by definition, of course it’s ascendant. How could it possibly be otherwise?
I’d dearly love to see protestants become a bit more knowledgable their own history.
Hopefully I’ve done you a service here fair_deal by introducing you to a part of your history that you may be unfamiliar with.
Posted by Biffo
(I’ll get back to you on the other thread later)
Piebald
Someone has been using wikipedia haven’t, any luck with a dictionary yet?
Leave aside the number of mistakes in the entry e.g. Presbyterians have always been allowed to join, the east belfast parades were legal, the OO disciplined members over the ormeau Road parade.
My my six quotes attacking a prominent organisation in a place with a history of political and religious controversies (even if 4 of them are over a century old), I am shocked and stunned.
Did you not notice a pattern in the article too? Dan Winter’s – attacked. Dolly’s Brae – attacked (I have actually seen the musket shot holes in a banner that was at Dolly’s Brae). Crossgar – attacked. Garvagh – attacked. Parading and the OO is an Ulster protestant tradition while it seems for some attacking them is a tradition. Might some of the trouble been avoided if they weren’t attacked?
You also omitted this from the wikipedia entry from the qualifications of an Orangeman
“He should by all lawful means, resist the ascendancy of that Church, its encroachments, and the extension of its power, ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren;”
““this is where the Orange Lodge works closely with local residents and the Gardai to ensure a peaceful day out with no hardline political speeches””
The victims group co-operated fully with the Garda throughout about Saturday’s march and it was still attacked.
At Rossknowlagh Ulster flags and orange standards are displayed but you said their display is provocative in Dublin?
Also the reason it is held in Rossknowlagh is because the last time it tried to hold a Twelfth parade in Donegal Town the OO was stoned out ot it (a bit like the victims groups on Saturday).
Parades are a reminder Ulster and Ireland are shared. Some don’t like that reminder preferring we be the identity that dare not speak its name, express its views or have public displays, wishing we would all find little reservations somewhere. Some react violently. Neither changes the fact this place is shared.
Biffo
I am well aware of the standard republican perspective of history and I have had it repeated to me on many occasions but I thought you didn’t like victimhood.
Baluba
“Protestant parliaments for porotestant people”
Do you need reminded of the full quote AGAIN?
I would like to see the Orange Order in Northern Ireland and Scotland have a long, hard, self searching look at what it says on the tin.
It needs to strive harder to be the pro Protestant faith brotherhood it’s rules demand it to be, and ditch the anti Catholic expression of many of it’s brethren which it’s rules says it doesn’t succour.
It seems that Lodges in Africa, Australia, Canada, Republic Of Ireland and elsewhere are able to do this.
Having said that, the intended parade in Dublin was not an Orange parade…a point which some cannot grasp, because of their own bigotries.
Realist.
For Slugger readers who would like to read Aileen’s acccount of the Dublin events, I suggest you visit A TANGLED WEB and check out “Fair City” thread. Well worth a read, I hope you may agree.
Realist
“I am well aware of the standard republican perspective of history and I have had it repeated to me on many occasions but I thought you didn’t like victimhood.”
You might be aware ot the “standard republican perspective on history”. I’m not familiar with it myself.
But it’s probably some nonsense like the standard loyalist perspective on history – appearing on a road near your house 3,000 times a year (a celebration of civil and religious liberty for all – where “all” means protestants only)
Catholics were disposessed and persecuted by protestants, they were the victims of the Williamite settlement. You can’t deny it.
Jews were the victims of the Nazi’s you can’t deny it.
It’s a fact, it’s well documented, in both cases.
The Nazi’s lost and Germans were made to come to terms with their history.
Irish protestants won and still haven’t come to terms with their history.
That’s why, centuries later, you still hear rubbish about civil and religious liberty and democracy endlessly and monotonously repeated by the likes of fair_deal.
History can make painful reading – deal with it and move on (i.e stop repeating racist rubbish from the 17th century).
mcswiney,
“Thankfully this type of thinly veiled bigoted journalism is a rarity”
Play the ball please.
To others on the site, please read the commenting policy before commenting. In the first place, your post may be removed and in the second, you may find that you can no longer access the site.
You can be as politically incorrect as you like, but please, please, play the ball. If you want to pick a fight, then use argument and reason.
Glad to see a victim of the bombing recognising that Southerners in general are not cut from the same cloth as the rioters.
Someone here is trotting the line about 1691 leading to advances in “democracy”. It did for some Protestants. Catholics were subjected to savage repression under the renewed Penal Laws, which made even what was there before James II look like a picnic. The % of land owned by Catholics (90% of the population) declined to 2% by 1700 and not long after. Land was to be compulsorily subdivided between the Catholic children of a Catholic parent, whereas all the property could be inherited by Protestant children. A Protestant relative of a Catholic also had the right to take the latter’s property from them. A Catholic could not buy land. A Catholic was forbidden from getting any education, was barred from the legal and order professions, was barred from sending their children abroad for education, and was barred from making a profit exceeding 33% of their rent. For much of the nexr century, agricultural exports from Ireland were illegal and successful Irish industries were destroyed or harmed e.g. Cork linen industry was taxed to extinction. The result was an impoverished (and embittered) nation. Also Catholics could not vote in Irish Parliament elections, and everyone, Church of Ireland or not, had to pay a tithe (tax) to that church.
All in all then, not a lot for Catholics to celebrate from 1690, whether Irish or British. Quite the opposite!
George4 at Mar 04, 02.50 is actually Brian Boru.
Biffo,
“…it’s probably some nonsense”.
Is it really too much to ask people to deal with others actually say than making prejudicial assumptions about what you think they might say?
Mick
Just as a slight aside, and in reference to the initial article, is the use of the term “hun” sectarian?
Particularly would be interested in the views of nationalist/republican posters on this…I have always thought it to be a derogatory term for Protestants, in much the same way as some might call Roman Catholics “taigs”.
“in much the same way as some might call Roman Catholics “taigs”. ”
Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics.
)
Yes, i would say ‘hun’ is derogatory.
Like ‘Charlie’ for the viet cong or any other numerous examples. It dehumanises and is not preferred.
George8 (??): Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics.
)
(Reader)
How else should one distinguish Roman Catholics from Anglo Catholics? – [Anglicans]
(Reader)
Biffo
It was me who wrote that not realist.
In another thread you got pet up about vicimhood but then seem to revel in a victimhood version of history hmmm. I still await your response on that thread if you get the chance it would be much appreciated.
Yes Penal Laws in Ireland were enacted (despite William’s misgivings) even if they were rarely enforced just as following William’s premature death the Test Acts targetting Non-Anglican Protestants were enacted.
The formal establishment of a constitutional monarchy is considered a key event in the establishment of democracy in the British Isles and that is what the Glorious Revolution and King William III achieved. It was not the final step (that was not achieved until the equal suffrage of women in the 1920′s although some would argue the absence of a written constitution and House of Lords are unfinished business on that score) but still an important step. The likes of Simon Schama is of that opinion and he could hardly be described as a ‘Loyalist’ historian.
“The Nazi’s lost and Germans were made to come to terms with their history.”
What’s the name of that rule about the first person to mention the nazi’s lost the argument?
from fair deal
“Or even Catholics – “Roman” Catholics.”
To whoever made this post, my sincere apologies…I was genuinely unaware that my comments were in any way derogatory to anyone.
Realist.
Realist
Worry not. It’s one of those little technical things that irks, but shouldn’t spoil. In a genuine thoeological discussion about various degrees of orthodoxy within High Anglican, Eastern Orthodox and ‘Catholic’ churchs, RC is probably a perfectly useful phrase.
But in general conversation about NI, especially given the low church tendencies of CoI, many ‘catholics’ take it as a small scale ‘calculated’ insult – which it often probably isn’t. But the Catholic church calls itself ‘the Catholic Church’, not the ‘Roman’ anything. It’s Catholic with a big C as opposed to catholic (simply meaning universal) with a small c.
But in no way should RC be as insulting as Taig, which unlike fenian has not been ‘taken back’ particularly by the nationalist community, maybe because it never belonged to them in the first place.
Fair deal – Godwin’s corrolory.
Godwin’s rule is actually that as the length of a thread increases on usenet, the probability of the Nazi’s being mention approaches 1.
The corrolory is an widely accepted addendum that the first person to actually do so (unless the thread is about German influene on world events 1933-45)loses the argument, but the rule itself doesn’t say that.
Fealty’s law might state that ‘the quality of a thread is inversley proportional to the number of uses of the word b1got.’
– The Beach Tree
As was my last ‘eranu’ comment
– TBT –