Lindy McDowell: “Welcome aboard, Chas. How does it feel to be a Hun?” Despite some heavy personal media targeting of some of the more colourful members of the march, she points out this was
Tags: Conflict, Nationalism, Republic, Unionism
John Laird (Lord Laird of Artigarvan) is unionism’s jester. His memoir A Struggle To Be Heard ” by a True Ulster Liberal” (from Slugger’s shop on Amazon here) might serve more as a heavy stocking filler than anybody’s idea of a main present. In it he wears the masks of comedy and tragedy to turn the [...] read our review »
fair_deal
“In another thread you got pet up about vicimhood but then seem to revel in a victimhood version of history hmmm”
It’s the old difference between the reality and the (self-serving) perception.
The dispossesion and subjugation of Irish catholics from the 16th century onwards was real, it actually happened.
The British government’s current policy of dispossing and subjugating protestants isn’t real, it’s imaginary.
“..even if they were rarely enforced.”
That’s a common misrepresentation. They were rigourously enforced (See another post above on land ownership statistics).
What you should have said is that after roughly a century they weren’t as rigorously enforced. By that stage they had achieved most of their objectives – except, notably, the eradication of Irish catholicism.
“It was not the final step … but still an important step.”
You are an orangman I suppose. You wouldn’t be one if you didn’t find something positive in some of the most repressive religious and unjust social legislation introduced anywhere at any time.
“What’s the name of that rule…?”
I use the Nazi example because it is appropriate and we are all familiar with it. The point is that Germans know what they and their forbears did in the 1930′s and 40′s, because they lost their war and they’ve had to confront a difficult history that many would prefer to forget.
People like you don’t know what your forefathers did because they won their wars and were free to invent myths that enabled you to avoid uncomfortable truths, unlike Germans.
See you back on the DUP thread in a minute.
Biffo: People like you don’t know what your forefathers did
But who does? – do you know what your forefathers did? Your 8 Great-Grandparents? Your 16 Great-Great-Grandparents, your 32 Great-Great-Great Grandparents? Have you forgotten that we are all mongrels? That whatever fraction of your (and my, and Fair Deal’s) ancestors were Protestant or Catholic – they all ate, enough, during e.g. the famine, while neighbours starved. And even if everyone’s ancestry was pure on both sides of today’s tribes, it might still have been even worse under the counter-reformation – how could we know? Because, back then, big otry was official policy across the board.
(Reader)
Fealty’s Rule “The longer a thread goes on in Slugger the further back in time posters are prepared to go”.
Fealty’s Corrolary: “The first person to mention an event before 1923 automatically loses the arguement, unless the thread directly pertains to events from that time”.
“People like you don’t know what your forefathers did”
At the start of this peace process Republicans attacked demonisation now they seem to revel in it. Sweeping generalisations abound. Hmmmmm.
I am a history graduate so I have more of a grounding in history than most members of the general public.
My family history (on my father’s side at least) has been researched so I have a fair idea what they did. As they were farm labourers and tenant farmers on the lowest rung of society they didn’t do much but eke out an existence.
As they were Presbyterians they were subject to the Test Acts – that made their marriages illegitimate and small things like that.
My father’s family’s home parish is Drumtullagh in North Antrim which in the 1830′s Ordnance Survey memoirs it says the people spoke “The Scotch language in great purity” hence my interest in Ulster-Scots (but if you follow the standard republican analysis you will know doubt think I’m making that up.)
By the way we also turned out in 1798 but the Act of Union satisfied our demands and have been Unionist ever since (apart from one Great-great uncle) and have been involved in the Orange Order for at least five generations.
Fair_deal – I think that makes you a legitimate target.
DK
Biffo
“The dispossesion and subjugation of Irish catholics from the 16th century onwards was real, it actually happened.”
Again you chose to ignore the Test Acts, Catholicism was not the only denomination to suffere legal repression. The Penal Laws are commonly accepted as a 17th century development rather than a 16th century (the elizabethan one is a bit of a stretch).
Below is an irish history site prepared to concede the laws weren’t enforce
“Although the Penal Laws were largely unenforced during the 18th century, they remained on the books and were still legally binding until Catholic Emancipation in 1829.” So its not just “people like me” of that opinion.
http://www.irishclans.com/articles/penallaws.html
The falsehood of your comparison of a 21st century Ulster Protestant’s guilt for the Penal Laws and a 20th century German’s guilt over the Holocaust.
1. The Holocaust was industrialised mass murder with 12 million victims of which Jews (about 50% of the pre-war population) Romanys (about 90% of the pre-war European population) and the physically and mentally disabled were the primary victims. The Penal Laws were not systematic mass murder of millions.
2. The Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of members. Millions of Germans voted for the Nazi party, in fact a majority did (the election that swept the Germans to full power involved electoral pacts with a number of local extreme nationalist groups and their combined votes was a majority). Millions of Germans fought in the wars of Nazi aggression. The Penal Laws were passed by the Irish parliament that had no mandate from the population protestant or otherwise.
3. The Nazi laws against Jews were systematically enforced. The Penal Laws weren’t. On land the nominal title may have been handed over but this was often a paper arrangement between neighbours – this type of relationship was not unprecendented as during the Plantation land was granted to Catholics even though it wasn’t supposed to be (land they had greater title too than the previous Gaelic system had granted them).
4. The Nazis actions were a majority population turning on a religious minority within it. In Ireland it was the actions of a fearful minority and laws written in fear just like the present ID and terrow laws are often foolish and bad law.
5. The Nazi demonisation of Jews was utterly irrational unless you believe the Elders of Zion forgery. Jewish Germans had not attacked the majority population in Germany ever nor had they been disloyal to the German state. The graves in the German graveyards of WWI marked with the Star of David attest to the ultimate sacrifice many of them made out of loyalty to germany. In 1690′s Ireland the 1641 anti-protestant rebellion was within living memory, the actions of Lord Tyrconnell fresh in the mind and the Catholic elite of Ireland and much of the population had supported the losing side in the Williamite wars. Thus the protestant minority’s fear of the Catholic majority was by no means irrational.
6. The Holocaust required the active involvment of tens of thousands of Germans and the acquiesce of hundreds of thousands.
Nazism was a popular project involving the active involvment and encouragment of millions of Germans. The penal Laws weren’t.The immediate post-war German generation had people living and breathing in there families or communities directly culpable for mass murder. 21st century Northern Ireland has no one directly culpable for the Penal Laws nor has had so for multiple generations.
“some of the most repressive religious and unjust social legislation introduced anywhere at any time.”
You seem unaware of contemporary 17th and 18th century European history. The treatment and laws against the protestant minorities in France and Austria was more severe than the penal laws. You should also check on Jewish history in Europe, pogroms, ghettos, the Inquisition etc.
“they won their wars and were free to invent myths”
From your comments it is clear those who lost the battles were able to create their own myths too. History is not a comic with good guys and bad guys and to portray it as such is an insult to history.
Furthermore by your logic if an historical event did not result in a perfect situation then it should not be marked even if you emphasise the positive aspects e.g. Orange banners celebrate the Bill of rights but there isnt one that celebrates the penal laws.
Will you tell Americans they can’t celebrate 4th July or shall I? Will you tell the RoI government not to mark the Easter Rising (after all it sparked a chain of events that led to partition something you find abhorrent) or shall I?
DK
LOL
1. Which bit makes me the legitimate target?
2. The couple of death threats I have received had given me a few hints that that may already be the case.
I was just thinking about levels of security at protest marches and double standards—–FAIR march in Dublin and a protest demo against it=not enough Gardai and Michael Mc Dowell not expecting the slightest bit of trouble,even though everyone else in the known universe thought there might be a tensy weansy bit of tension.
Shannon Airport used for US troops going to IRAQ
and later George Bush’s stop over there + protest demonstrations against both of the above
=Security ring of steel,no Gardai got time off within 5 counties,200 Gardai on horse back,Free State army brought from Limerick,Clonmell,Cork,Civil defence units on the roads as well as the FCA–locals being constantly stopped at checkpoints for identification,tanks, artillery and every piece of hardware that could be found going in a constant flow stretching all the way from Limerick to Shannon lasting several hours—now its safe to say that the resources to quell any trouble at the FAIR march in Dublin were available .
Now, As I have critisised Mc Dowell,I eagerly await the traditional Ball not Man reminder that I have come to expect as a natural follow on whenever I mention him,closet PDs are so predictable
Martin
Where have you been old chap?
What is it with you and PD’s?
………………..and do you think that the events in Dublin last week have any implications for our inclusive pc vision and should we try to bring a rioter on board to prove our commitment to make us representative ;o)
Bertie !!!!
To put it bluntly–I can’t stand them [apart from Liz O'Donnell]
how the hell are you,me old friend,I have so much to fill you in on—I spent several months hijacking threads on ATW with the help of MR,Aileen and Colm and several passers through–we tried to find you and let you and FYU on board but I could never find you—whats been happening on this end—its a pity I only found you now as I think the above post will finally get me barred—If I am toast,meet me at United Irelanders place.
Bertie,
I don’t think one of those rioters should be brought on board—-I may be a nationalist but I have to say Ive never met a Dub that I liked–well there is George but he moved out of there–can’t say I blame him
Maybe Charlie Bird would be interested?
So you’re a nationalist from NI, who doesn’t like Dubliners, the rioters were (or at least some/most of them) Dublin republican who don’t like O****** B******** in their capital (and which they presubably consider the OBs capital as well) and a group of OBs who came down to Dublin to cause trouble by some assessments, ending up as, if not quite universally cinsidered the good guys but at least not the worst guys and who owed (and recognised) a dept of gratitude to the police of this foreign state.
I’m confused!
Bertie,
It gets better—I am actually a pro-partitionist Anti-Partitionist.
Whats FYU been up to—did you persuade him to go through with the sex change operation ???
“many ‘catholics’ take it as a small scale ‘calculated’ insult – which it often probably isn’t. But the Catholic church calls itself ‘the Catholic Church’, not the ‘Roman’ anything. It’s Catholic with a big C as opposed to catholic (simply meaning universal) with a small c.”
.. and so if I say I have catholic tastes it doesn’t mean that I would eat a whole one :0).
Funnily enough I have noticed in my area that for the first time there are signs put up outside chapels to identify the demonination, and it is described as “Roman Catholic”
BTW why is it that Stephen Copland only appears here to deny that there is any anti-Protestant feeling in the south- long suffering bloggers will recall that he appears to come from County Monaghan, yet was educated at Campbell, and is an Episcopalian -as distinct from an Anglican since we’re parsing our religious terms here- who claims an insight into the mindset of that diverse group of non -RC citizens in the republic. it’s almost as if he didn’t really exist- unlike me obviously
Martin
I’ve warned you about assertive women, no good can come of it
Biffo
I can’t see how it is an insult to use the term Roman Catholic. Anglicans consider themselves Catholic so they need another way of being specific.
I followed a link above to see what Aileen Quinton wrote and what I found didn’t inspire me.
Talking of victims and forgiveness, she said:
“Of course Gordon Wilson’s interview that is often refered to as him forgiving the IRA was no such thing either. He said something like he held no bitterness for them and had prayed for them.”
This is, quite simply, not true.
……………………
“I have no desire for revenge or retaliation,” he said. “Killing the people who killed my daughter will not bring her back. So I forgive the bombers and I leave everything to God and I believe someday, I will see my daughter again.”
The whole country was shocked by Gordon’s forgiveness. No one had quite ever forgiven the other side so publicly before. For the first time in a long time, people began to talk about forgiving one another, to forgive the bombers, and to let go of resentment, and this talk of forgiveness and reconciliation helped lead up to the Good Friday peace agreement in 1998. Gordon traveled around the world promoting reconciliation until his death from cancer a few years ago.
So when I was living in Northern Ireland, I went to the town of Enniskillen to meet Gordon Wilson’s wife, Joan, who is still alive, and living in their home. She invited me in for a cup of tea that afternoon, and after we were chatting, I asked her, “Joan, how did he do it? How did you and Gordon forgive the people who killed your daughter?” This is what she said to me. “Gordon and I had been married for thirty years, and every night before we went to bed, we knelt down together and prayed the Lord’s prayer. Every night for thirty years! When Gordon was in the hospital that afternoon, he said to me, ‘We have to forgive. Otherwise, we can never pray the Lord’s prayer again.’ We wanted to be able to say to God, ‘Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.’ So we forgave the murderers, and we were able to continue praying the Lord’s prayer.”
It seems that even victims will misrepresent other victims, whetehr unknowingly or deliberately.
I concur with Bog Exiles comment above. The march, aborted or planned, is unworthy of victims and brings no credit on anyone associated with it at all.
fair_deal – apologies this reply is so long-winded I’ve had to split it in two.
Parte the first.
“At the start of this peace process Republicans attacked demonisation now they seem to revel in it. Sweeping generalisations abound. Hmmmmm”
Interesting that you assume I’m a republican because I challenge the orange order version of history.
I’m not a republican my last extended contribution to slugger was a heated exchange with henry94 who is a republican.
I am opposed to bullshit and propaganda whatever the source. I like thoughtful and objective arguments.
“I am a history graduate so I have more of a grounding in history than most members of the general public.”
Did you major in Ulster History? No? I thought not.
“My family history (on my father’s side at least) has been researched so I have a fair idea what they did.”
I’ve tried as far as I can to research my family history. It’s much more difficult if you your ancestors were catholic – visit proni and compare the records – catholics don’t seem to have officially existed until relatively recently.
“My father’s family’s home parish is Drumtullagh in North Antrim which in the 1830’s Ordnance Survey memoirs it says the people spoke “The Scotch language in great purity” hence my interest in Ulster-Scots (but if you follow the standard republican analysis you will know doubt think I’m making that up.)”
There you go with that imaginary “republican analysis” again – where do you get that from. It certainly isn’t from anything I’ve ever said. Try to keep your assumptions out of the debate.
Personally, both my mother and father’s family come from the Slieve Gallon area of south Derry (as in “Ye Bonnie Bonnie Slieve Gallon Braes”) It was a bilingual Irish and Scots speaking area at the time of the 1830′s ordnance survey memoirs, if you must know.
I know my Scots, Lallans and Doric from my Ullans and I know my Gaeilge from my Gàidhlig. I could give some employees of the USA a run for their money.
“Again you chose to ignore the Test Acts..”
Oh no I don’t – the penalties suffered by Presbyterians, though harsh, were trivial compared to those suffered by catholics. The fact that both catholics and presbyterians were penalised has lead to a misconception that they were penalised equally – nothing could be further from the truth. I can’t stress that enough.
“Below is an irish history site prepared to concede the laws weren’t enforce”
It doesn’t – if you had read the whole article you linked to you’d see that the rest of the article srtingly conradicts that statement. Like a lot of internet history sites, it’s patchy.
About the penal laws what was it Edmund Burke said? “..as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a feeble people and the debasement in them of human nature itself as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.”
But he was only a respected and influential politician who actually lived at the time (and opposed Irish independance and republicanism to boot), so what would he know?
Yours sincerely Biffo
fair_deal
Parte the second
“..as during the Plantation land was granted to Catholics even though it wasn’t supposed to be..”
You have missed the main feature of the plantation. The land belonged to catholics, it was taken off them and given to protestants. Some catholics were “granted land” for services rendered.
“..(land they had greater title too than the previous Gaelic system had granted them)..”
As individuals the Gaelic system didn’t grant them any title to the land.
“The falsehood of your comparison of a 21st century Ulster Protestant’s guilt for the Penal Laws and a 20th century German’s guilt over the Holocaust.”
I’m talking about 21st century Germans. I have spoken to germans about this. I’m not talking about the degree of wrongdoing. I’m talking about the fact that they did wrong.
Germans lost their war to dominate the world as the master race. Germans don’t celebrate the war now.
Irish Protestants won their war to dominate Ireland as the protestant ascendancy. They still celebrate it 315 years later – 12th July – thanks to a large dose of mythology which obliterates the injustice of what they achieved.
“In 1690’s Ireland the 1641 anti-protestant rebellion was within living memory, the actions of Lord Tyrconnell fresh in the mind…”
Classic, oft-repeated mythology.
In 1641 native Ulster people rose up against cruel, unjust, foreign occupiers. The attrocities carried out by Essex were still in living memory and the locals were still being robbed as the plantation process was still ongoing and a reality in 1641.
(BTW, the logic of your take on 1641 would dictate that if a protestant breaks into my home to steal my property and I fight back I am guilty of an “anti-protestant” assault)
“Thus the protestant minority’s fear of the Catholic majority was by no means irrational.”
That’s one point I agree with. Fear of retribution is not irrational and the instinct to supress the victim is certainly rational.
“You seem unaware of contemporary 17th and 18th century European history. The treatment and laws against the protestant minorities in France and Austria was more severe than the penal laws.”
I’m aware of the ill-treatment of protestants, I just don’t know enough about it and I don’t pretend to. I certainly don’t justify, excuse, condone or celebrate it.
The Irish penal laws were so sick that I have never imaginated that the injustice inflicted on protestants in Europe could have been any worse. No doubt you can give me details and we’ll compare them blow for blow. That would be a genuinely interesting historical exercise.
“Furthermore by your logic if an historical event did not result in a perfect situation then it should not be marked even if you emphasise the positive aspects e.g. Orange banners celebrate the Bill of rights but there isnt one that celebrates the penal laws.”
No, my logic dictates that a historical event should be judged on the effect it had. If the event benefited some people – great, let’s celebrate. If at the same time it lead to the futher subjugation of a much greater number of people, then no – celebrations seem inappropriate.
“..(after all it sparked a chain of events that led to partition something you find abhorrent)..”
I don’t find partition abhorrent, stop making assumptions, I’m happy enough to live in the UK. I am not entirely convinced of a united Ireland, though I can see advantages.
If unionism appealed to catholics here it wouldn’t harm my aspirations.
But I would find unionism a lot more convincing if it decommissioned the loyalist myths and propaganda.
Maybe you unionists should be less defensive and stop imagining that every criticism is a republican assault.
Ditch the victimhood comfort blanket – it’s threadbare.
Exit the land of perception and enter the land of reality.
Biffo
24 June 2006 Dublin had a gay poarade. Its fourteenth. When Belfast has its first one
encouraging diversity and all that good stuff then have a whinge about a sectarina parade producing rioting.
August 5th 2006
Belfast
Pride Parade
I go every year, its fun
What on earth are you talking about realist
The leading unionist party also sends a delegation to the march every year – to aggressively denounce and insult the marchers. Perhaps Realist thought that the largest community here might accept responsibility for the actions of their elected leaders – silly idea, really!
Come, come. We must not disparage the exercise of courageous high principle whenever we that have rare opportunity to see it.
It surely follows that a party which does not flinch from its heavy moral duty of curtailing the joy of small small children by locking up those evil satanic instruments, playgrouhd swings, should shirk from its duty of so making every attempt that no adult give expression to the joy of their sexuality.
I am quite sure that no discrimination is intended to homosexual people and that the party would be equally opposed to any simalar expression of joy, sexual or otherwise from any quarter whatsoever. A principled killjoy opportunist is always an equal opportunities opportunist.
A hip young Yankee visitor to Alabama once asked his cousin, a young miserably oppressed native,
“How come you Southern Baptists are so down on dancing?”
” ‘Cause we don’t want God to think we’re fucking’ standin’ up”.
Aye, let’s never forget that locking up swings is much much worse than attacking people.
Not real people, just Orange Bastards.
Out of interest, when was the last time someone chained up swings?
Did/does this really happen, or is it another urban myth?
Why are we into understanding these orange cunts so? would they even give us the same thought. Ponder that. Right, now stop giving intolerant shits the time that they would deny others. This is a sick society that even debates the merits of being nice to these bastards.
I can recall the swings in the Ormeau Park being chained up many years ago
Don’t think it happens now.
The only thing chained up these days are the gates to Irish league football grounds, but there are so few going through the gates anyway, it hardly matters.
Figo The only thing chained up these days are the gates to Irish league football grounds, but there are so few going through the gates anyway, it hardly matters.
Well that is certainly progress. Almost 70,000 watched Dublin trounce Laois yesterday, just about the same amount that watched gay icon Beckham bend it.
The Orangies should have been allowed march up and odwn O’Connell Street all day long, subject to the needs of business. Sure, a lot of people in Dublin would not have liked Oragies or the vile creed they represent. But the same is true of the interminable marches Sinn Fein/IRA (use to) organize. Sauce for the goose and all that.
“I followed a link above to see what Aileen Quinton wrote and what I found didn’t inspire me.
Talking of victims and forgiveness, she said:
“Of course Gordon Wilson’s interview that is often refered to as him forgiving the IRA was no such thing either. He said something like he held no bitterness for them and had prayed for them.â€
This is, quite simply, not true. ”
Not wishing to reinvigorate this thread but in the interests of factual accuracy.
This quite simply is true and Jo’s reminisences (whether true or not) do not alter what was said and not said in the interview that I was specifically alluding to and to which she has seen fit to misrepresent as me saying that Gordon Wilson never forgave the IRA.