Today’s Newsletter contains a headline accusation from Willie Frazer that Mary McAleese and Fr. Alex Reid were to blame for Saturday’s riot in Dublin. Not adverse from using inflammatory language himself, apparently Mr. Frazer sees a link between comments attributed to both individuals and the events of Saturday in Dublin. He does not, however, say whether or not he believes his own usage of extreme language played any part in provoking the riot.
This is article was first published in Fortnight magazine back in February 2003. Chris Farrington is now a Government of Ireland Postdoctoral Fellow funded by the Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences’ in the School of Politics and International Relations, University College Dublin. Although the circumstances it describes has changed radically and [...] read our review »
Northern Ireland’s peace process has been promoted as an international success story. The Republic’s Department of Foreign Affairs has its Conflict Resolution Unit, which aims to disseminate the ‘lessons’ of the Northern Ireland peace process. And some of the prominent players in our peace process have travelled abroad to other troubled spots to share their [...] read our review »
It is difficult to believe now that one country recently sent 19 delegations to Ireland to study how well our economy was managed. The revelation that our model of economic management featured positively in political and economic discussion in countries including Estonia, Greece and Scotland may also come as a surprise. As we survey the [...] read our review »
If you really want to have an insight into the love ulster group why not pop over to thier website.
“Quote: From a moderator:After his splinter site was hacked……… YA COULDNT LEAVE A UNIONIST SITE ALONE, YOU HAD TO FUK WITH IT…
WELL DONE LOOKS LIKE THE FENIANS GOT THEIR WAY AGAIN
U WANT ULSTER1 GONE, ITS GONE
FUKIN. SMELLY FENIA.NS
YA SHUD BE SHOT AT DAWN
TAFKABO7 at 05:01 is actually me, Brian Boru.
from piebald –
fine sentiments from both Brian Boru and Billy Pilgrim but the reality is that Orange Order parades in contentious areas have always caused trouble and always will – 200 years ago or 200 years from now. It is a large part of their raison d’etre.
The naivety and bad planning of the Authorities in this whole fiasco was staggering but not unprecedented.
“the reality is that Orange Order parades in contentious areas have always caused trouble and always will – 200 years ago or 200 years from now.”
Good grief, 200 years. You old pessimist you.
You do realize that some of won’t be around to prove you wrong, don’t you?
Billy Pilgrim
“Ian Paisley uses parliamentary privilege to name Eugene Reavey as the architect of the atrocity. Paisley’s “evidence” is instantly rejected by Alan Black, the sole survivor of the massacre, who immediately goes to the Reavey’s house to publicly stand with them and affirm their innocence. The security forces dossier that is leaked to Paisley is indeed discredited many years later. But to no avail. Result – a joint police/UVF/UDR unit attacks the Reavey family home and massacres three of the Reavey brothers.”
I am afraid your timeline and Paisley’s role is all wrong. Paisley use of the files and naming of Reavey was decades after the attack. Paisley had named no one publicly when members of the reavey family were murdered. The files do not claim Mr Reavey was present during the massacre. The fortunate survivor of the attack Mr Black can only identify those present at the time of the shooting not the possible planners but his belief in the innocence of Mr reavey is of significant note.
“Either way, the men in question are no longer with us, so are past caring. All that’s at stake are the feelings of their families.”
Oh that’s all right then I am sure it will help the families grief to have relatives portrayed as mass murderers. Also naming names by BIRW and nationalist groups has never been restricted to those already dead by BIRW. Also some of those named as members of the Glenanne gang are still alive so “they are all dead” doesn’t wash.
The dublin and monaghan claims are based on one uncorroborated statement from a person who says they were part of the gang hardly irrefutable. Sean Callaghan says Pat Finucane was an IRA man and met him at IRA meetings but this claim is rejected by his family, republicans and the police.
The new evidence used to clear Eugene Reavey’s name was a statement from the police and I notice you sidestepped/ignored the question, if the police’s word is good enough to clear a nationalist accused of something why is it not good enough when it says a republican group is responsible for something?
“Garda protection”
Yes the officers in Dublin did offer protection to those involved in the Love Ulster Parade and that included putting themselves in significant danger. The fact the rioters won on the day is no reflection on officers on the ground but a failure of intelligence and planning. It is also a break from their past history when they failed to protect other parades.
Piebald
“The FAIR parade ( as ye don’t want to call it a march ) was designed to cause a breach of the peace and succeeded in its aims.”
Simply repeating it doesn’t make it so. What evidence have you to support this claim? Other than it was “Ulster Prods asking to walk in Dublin they must be looking for trouble.”
Love Ulster has held parades in Belfast, London and the attemtped one in Dublin. If they were out for trouble they could have made life much more difficult for the Garda before the parade and on the day itself. Since the announcement of the Dublin parade it has co-operated fully with the RoI authorities and their requests in advance and on the day.
A 1864 legal case is what u offer in defence!?! PLEASE! In 1864 kids were being shoved up chimneys. You are suggesting that Catholic attitudes towards Protestants and their symbols haven’t moved on in 142 years. If that claim is true then we do have serious problems.
However, it does explain your comment that “Similarily if victims of violence had come to Dublin without the loyalist bands and symbols and participated in a dignified way there may have been a less hostile reception.” aka Ulster Prods do as your told or else. Again the orange lilies instead of collarettes was a gesture to Dubliners and you take offence at that!
“If this was not an orange order parade why were the participants wearing orange lilys ?”
Eyes roll, I do wish you could speak slowly in type to help people understand. You don’t have to be a member of the Orange Order to wear an Orange lily. Also organisers had asked any member of the Loyal Orders not to wear collarettes as a gesture of good will, a gesture utterly ignored in the demonisation of the parade and its motives.
“fine sentiments from both Brian Boru and Billy Pilgrim but the reality is that Orange Order parades in contentious areas have always caused trouble and always will – 200 years ago or 200 years from now. It is a large part of their raison d’etre.”
Why
I noticed you haven’t replied to my questions?
“They are my stereotype they are I tell you!”
Maybe after 200 years nationalists might accept another community lives on this island expresses itself in different ways and tolerate it rather than attack it.
Fair Deal
“I am afraid your timeline and Paisley’s role is all wrong. Paisley use of the files and naming of Reavey was decades after the attack. Paisley had named no one publicly when members of the Reavey family were murdered.”
Actually, I think you’ll find (if you happen to have a copy of Hansard handy) that Paisley first used parliamentary privilege to name Eugene Reavey in 1976, after Kingsmill but before the Reavey family massacre. Check it out.
“Oh that’s all right then I am sure it will help the families grief to have relatives portrayed as mass murderers.”
No, that’s not what I’m saying, and you know it. If anyone has defamed the dead, then that is wrong, but it’s clearly different from defaming the living in a way that puts lives at risk. The Reavey family case clearly meets this criteria.
Though you’re right to point out that some members of the Glenanne gang are still alive, and that the evidence against them might not be enough for a court. However, the three Reavey brothers are not alive, and the “evidence” against them was zero. I’m not downplaying families’ grief, but the living MUST take precedence over the dead.
“The new evidence used to clear Eugene Reavey’s name was a statement from the police and I notice you sidestepped/ignored the question, if the police’s word is good enough to clear a nationalist accused of something why is it not good enough when it says a republican group is responsible for something?”
There was no “new evidence”. The police statement was not “new evidence”, it was the retraction of the only “evidence” there ever was. A police file on Eugene Reavey, leaked through the DUP spy ring within the RUC, was the only “evidence” there EVER was against Reavey, and it was enough to spark a massacre. So this isn’t an issue of blindly believing whatever the police say, just because it suits. This is a case where the ONLY agency who made any allegation, withdrew that allegation. There was suspicion against the Reaveys ONLY because the RUC pointed the finger. The RUC later admitted it was wrong. No leap of faith in anyone required.
“Yes the officers in Dublin did offer protection to those involved in the Love Ulster Parade and that included putting themselves in significant danger. The fact the rioters won on the day is no reflection on officers on the ground but a failure of intelligence and planning. It is also a break from their past history when they failed to protect other parades.”
Name one.
Sorry FD you would need to ask a Nationalist/Republican those questions you want answered.
Brian Boru
“There is actually very little sectarianism in the South. But in a city of 1.2 million, a tiny % can equate to the 1000 or so that turned out to cause trouble. 1 way we should react to this is by going ahead with the 1916 march in April, in order to deny the terrorists the right to claim to be the true successors of those freedom fighters.”
Hmmm. Having lived in the south for many years, and more revealingly, having lived with southerners in the north for several years, I’d say that there is a prevalence of certain attitudes and mindsets that are not sectarian as such, but which might be interpreted as such, if one were of a mind to do so.
What do I mean by that? Hmmm. I suppose there are certain realities which partition has given rise to. I have found that the people within the nationalist community with the most old-fashioned, unrealistic and strident views are southerners who have moved up. For example, a northern nationalist will see a union jack or an orange march in Belfast city centre and, while not thrilled about it, will not blow a gasket either. Northerners can’t afford to. If we were to go crazy every time we saw some outward manifestation of the other tradition, it would be exhausting. A southerner though – not being used to such sights – is far more likely to get upset. Southerners never have to come to terms with the realities of living in a divided society. The border has allowed the creation of quite a cosy republican consensus in the south, but not on the island. The north remains a sort of quarantine zone, where the sectarian problems of the island have been sectioned and, as far as possible, put aside. So to say that sectarianism is uncommon in the south is a half-truth. It’s easy to be tolerant and non-sectarian from a distance. It’s easy to convince yourself that you aren’t sectarian when there isn’t even the perception of a threat. But what if things weren’t so secure? What if problems were closer to home? Is southern sectarianism absent, or merely unnecessary at the moment?
I happen to agree that there is precious little sectarianism in the south, but there is also a cosiness of which most people are zealously protective. That cosiness consists of things like not having to look at union jacks, and an old-fashioned, boy’s own anti-British jingoism. I think that attempts to upset that cosiness might bring out an ugly side that most people still refuse to believe exists. Maybe I’m wrong, I dunno. (Though I do know this – we Irish have a self-congratulatory streak to us.)
Of course sectarianism is more common in the north – it’s very hard to ignore the realities of living in a divided society, no matter how much you might wish to – but I would suggest that discourse on the issue of sectarianism is far more sophisticated and imaginative and advanced in the north, simply because it HAS to be. I was talking to a friend who was on O’Connell Street on Saturday reporting, and he told me some of the things that were being said – blood curdling sectarianism. I’ve witnessed rioting in the north in Armagh, Portadown, Kilkeel and Belfast, and frankly I have to say, we have a better class of sectarian knuckle-dragger in the north.
So rather than doing what unionism does and denying the problem, you should treat it with the utmost seriousness. The fact is that when Irish citizens opposed to the Republican consensus of the south tried to march in the capital, there was rioting. Surely this has a significance greater than the numbers involved?
Billy Pilgrim
“Actually, I think you’ll find (if you happen to have a copy of Hansard handy) that Paisley first used parliamentary privilege to name Eugene Reavey in 1976, after Kingsmill but before the Reavey family massacre. Check it out.”
Your information is wrong on that one. The 6 members of the Reavey and O’Dowd familys were massacred on the day before the Kingsmill massacre.
Billy
“there is also a cosiness of which most people are zealously protective”
And rightly so, why shouldn’t we be?
“That cosiness consists of things like not having to look at union jacks”
? I don’t think too many of us give a shit. Or do all those Southerners close their eys when on weekend trips to London or Belfast?
“I think that attempts to upset that cosiness might bring out an ugly side that most people still refuse to believe exists.”
You may be right. Of course we want to protect what we have, we kinda like what we have, especially when we see what you have
Billy Pilgrim
“Paisley first used parliamentary privilege to name Eugene Reavey in 1976, after Kingsmill but before the Reavey family massacre. Check it out.”
Oh dear Billy,I did check it out and it is now clear you do not know what you are talking about. Members of the Reavey family were murdered BEFORE the Kingsmill massacre. So your claim of Kingsmill followed by Paisley naming followed by reavey family murders is IMPOSSIBLE.
I have checked it out Hansard is not available online for 1976. All interent references mention Paisley’s use of parliamentary privilege in 1999 including on the Pat Finucane centre website.
Can you provide any source to support your claim of Paisley using parliamentary privilege in 1976?
“Name one.”
Easy there were three in one year. 1931 is the key year Loyal Order parades were attacked in Leitrim and Cavan.
Baileboro – OO Cavan Twelfth parade (The Protestant minister who spoke from the platform was kidnapped by republicans and held for a number of days)
Newtongore – OO Leitrim Twelfth parade
Cootehill – Black Parade – The IRA took over the entire town.
The OO approached Cosgrave about the matter and the failure to get adequate protection and he informed them he sympathised but said he could not guarantee the safety of future parades. Thereafter all Twelfth parades and nearly all other parades in Cavan Leitrim and Monaghan ceased.
Maca
“there is also a cosiness of which most people are zealously protective”
And rightly so, why shouldn’t we be?
Nothing to do with should. It’s more a question of what price ye might be willing to pay for reunification. I would suggest there would be those south of the border for whom the answer would be: nothing. Others would disagree.
“That cosiness consists of things like not having to look at union jacks”
“I don’t think too many of us give a shit. Or do all those Southerners close their eys when on weekend trips to London or Belfast?”
Ah now Maca, you know what I mean. I’m talking about not having to look at union jacks in Ireland. Hence, for example, their absence from flagpoles outside hotels in the south. And I have already testified to the annoyance of several southerners of my acquaintance when passing Belfast city hall, for example.
“I think that attempts to upset that cosiness might bring out an ugly side that most people still refuse to believe exists.”
You may be right. Of course we want to protect what we have, we kinda like what we have, especially when we see what you have
In the north we live with the reality of two traditions on this island. It’s not easy and it’s not pretty but we live with it and attempt to deal with it. The border allows people in the south to live safely in denial. It might be easy to patronise from the security of the Republic, but I guess after Saturday it’ll be a little harder.
Billy Pilgrim
“I now know how most unionists must have felt as they looked on in horror at Drumcree/Harryville/Carnmoney/Holy Cross/“Vatican Square”/the Septemer riots etc”
I see your point here.
But you forget that a significant number of mainstream unionists blame the police when loyalist scumbags riot.
I haven’t heard elected representatives in the south accusing the gardaí of being heavyhanded and provoking the trouble – which is what would have happened if the violence had occured on the Newtownards Road.
You have have to understand that many within mainstream unionism have a mirror mentality to those in Republican Sinn Féin.
Fair Deal
Oops. I’m happy to acknowledge that I was mistaken in the details of the Reavey case. Undoubtedly I’ve confused the details of some other cases with it. That’ll teach me to go by my hazy memory rather than nail details down.
(Very embarrassed.)
Oh, and thanks for the details re. 1931. Very interesting stuff. Not something I was aware of. Point taken.
Biffo
You may have a point but I also think you’re missing the important issue. We shouldn’t be looking for excuses or distinctions to explain why this wasn’t as bad as X, Y or Z. (Even if it wasn’t.)
Frankly, in all the instances I have named, unionist politicians compounded the shame caused in the first place. We – those of us who are of Ireland and for Ireland – need to hold ourselves to higher standards than the other tradition on the island appears to. If we don’t then how can we ever flatter ourselves that we have anything to offer them?
“Maybe after 200 years nationalists might accept another community lives on this island expresses itself in different ways and tolerate it rather than attack it.”
In the south we already accept you. Unfortunately a tiny minority does not. We should have planned better for dealing with that minority. Dublin City Council was trying to bring in tougher security measures for marches in 2001/2 but civil-liberties groups shot it down. Maybe this will wake them up.
Of course, accepting your differences does not mean we have to share your political beliefs, which I admit we certainly do not.
To Fair Deal,
I am from Whitecross and know both the Reavey’s and Willie Frazer. The Kingsmill massacre did happen after the murders of the Reavey and O’Dowd families probably and unforgiveably in retaliation.
I am absolutely certain that Eugene Reavey had nothing to do with the Kingsmills massacre or anything else for that matter. He was grieving after losing two of his brothers for heavens sake.
Ian Paisley also named other men from the Whitecross area who had nothing to do with the massacre. Paisley is a political coward and always has been. Why does he not say these things openly instead of hiding behind parliament privelege.
As for Willie, his whole personal story is full of inaccuracies. Their house was never attacked during his fathers wake. Willie has never played gaelic football for Whitecross let alone captain the u13 team. He did attend Ballymoyer primary school and probably played football there.
I think that Willie is fully entitled to have a victims site exclusively for victims of IRA violence but he should not slander the name and indeed put at risk innocent men like Eugene Reavey who was a victim himself
Brian Boru
“accepting your differences does not mean we have to share your political beliefs, which I admit we certainly do not.”
Never asked you too.
Billy Pilgrim
Retraction accepted. Happy to have been able to have made you more aware with the other information.
Why6
Terrible for Willie to accuse Eugene Reavey but ok to accuse Willie Frazer of lots of things. Hmm interesting.
I was’nt aware that I had accused Willie of anything apart from being liberal with the truth which is different than accusing someone of mass murder.
Why6
You were accusing him of being a liar. I fully accept that the accusations against Mr Reavey are much more serious but you were still throwing about accusations.
Intelligence documents now in the public domain are the source of the allegations against Mr Reavey and others, what are your sources in the public domain?
As blogged on this thread previously I am almost certain that the police have said that these intelligence documents were basically bullshit and that Eugene Reavey was not in their line of enquiries for Kingmills
Regarding Willie, I have no sources in the public domain but if you think his house was attacked during his fathers wake, would it not have been reported to the police and records kept.
I have been a member of Whitecross football club and played from I was 10 until I retired and I can tell you now that Willie never played for us.
Fair Deal
“You are suggesting that Catholic attitudes towards Protestants and their symbols haven’t moved on in 142 years. If that claim is true then we do have serious problems.”
Attitudes to Orange symbols won’t change when those symbols still signify ascendant attitudes.
Of course we have serious problems and the political vacuum at present is not helping.
“aka Ulster Prods do as your told or else.”
no – just cop on to yourselves
Again the orange lilies instead of collarettes was a gesture to Dubliners and you take offence at that!”
An Orange Lily has nothing to do with Protestantism but is worn in support of the Orange Order.
A bit like the British soldiers wearing berets instead of helmets – lovely
The Lambeg drum was also a nice touch.
Pity a Mobile Arch could not have been assembled eh ?
piebald
There is a correlation between Orange Order marches and violence. This was no surprise.
Interesting that the wee fella who chucked the wheelbarrow at the Gardaí was Polish and some others who were arrested were Lithuanian. Do we assume from this that they’ve become radicalised Irish Republicans, or did they just take the opportunity to get stuck into the peelers as people do in riots the world over?
Me thinks the latter.
I wish the march had gone ahead. It would have been more than amusing to see that tiny band of eejits walking down O’Connell street. How many was there? 100? 150?
A successful exercise in provocation as is their great skill.
whatever is goin wrong with the site. the above post was made by baluba not brian boru2 or whatever that jazz means.
Billy
“I’m talking about not having to look at union jacks in Ireland.”
Again I don’t see the problem there. Perhaps you knew a few people who might have a problem, I don’t.
“The border allows people in the south to live safely in denial”
In denial of what Billy, can you clarify? In denial that another tradition exists? In denial that there are scum bags in Ireland too?
‘fair deal’
Ballistic reports which were covered up by the RUC for 30 years substantiate John Weir’s claims about the killing of the Reaveys’s by a UDR/RUC/UVF gang. Weir’s statements are credible.
The facts of the Miami Showband Massacre which took place in the same area 5 months previous are indisputable and speak for themselves.
elfinto
Piebald posted: “The Lambeg drum was also a nice touch.”
Could be because it’s a boys’ thing, but has it occurred to anybody that drums (of themselves) could be part of the problem?
After all, why did armies use the damn things? To stir up the troops as they marched into battle, get the ol’ patriotic blood up. Blood-curdling war cries helped too.
So what function have military drums got in peace time? Except to stir things up.
Maybe time to take the drum out of Ulster politics?