Fail to prepare? Prepare to fail
Irish Justice Minister Michael McDowell has said there will be an inquiry into the rioting in Dublin on Saturday and that a full report from the Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy will be put before the Cabinet on Tuesday. I hope he can then come out and explain to the rest of us why An Garda Siochana had prepared for a low key event and that it occurred to no one in authority (north or south) that there could and would be trouble. Yesterday’s militant Irish Republican movement may be riddled with informers, but tomorrow’s obviously isn’t.I can well understand hoping for the best but surely any police force worth its salt should also have prepared for the worst or is common sense no longer a required talent in policing?
I agree with Mick Hall when he said on the blogging the riots blog that “the right to protest is a test of any democracy”.
I also agree that, in the greater scheme of things, this was a minor scuffle, the equivalent of what a Berlin rioter would call “Volkssport”, where the dissillusioned youth (anarchists, revolutionary communists etc.) travel from all over Germany to take on the police and the state for a day on May 1 each year, and inevitably lose eventually against the might of up to 7,000 police officers who guard every building site on the route with riot police and a city authority which spends the weeks beforehand cementing down any loose paving stones.
However, the difference here in Ireland, and accordingly the problem, is that the Gardai lost and the demonstrators won, unless of course you are an anarchist, revolutionary communist etc. Any European police force put in the same situation with the same orders would have cracked skulls to ensure the wishes of the democratically elected government were enforced, however unpalatable, in this instance the march by Love Ulster from Parnell Square to Dail Eireann.
They would have had the thousands of police officers that were obviously necessary on hand to ensure this march took place. No expense would have been spared.
Ireland though either cut corners or doesn’t play by these rules and instead allowed violent demonstrators to prevent a legally sanctioned march to take place.
Whatever way you look at it, the Irish state failed miserably in its duty to uphold democracy in this country.
It is the big loser in this whole affair.
Nothing breeds success like success and those who took on the state on the streets of Dublin at the weekend will be back, stronger, more numerous, bolder and most importantly, better prepared. After all, if Dublin can burn once, then it can burn again.
‘SF/IRA blogging committe (Cheerleader Shagging Section)’
Ha Ha Ha.
Piebald,
Thanks for the link to that excellent indymedia article. What a great site! I will never need to visit the so-called RTE ‘news’ site again.
http://www.indymedia.ie
Pat,
The Cheerleader Shagging section is a secret project. Ssshh!
Elfinto;
1. “Unionists are British nationalists.”
No they are Unionists and the United Kingdom is an entity which encompasses several nationalities, putting none above any other.
2.”Ireland is a country with 32 counties, which were ironically given to us by the British”.
No it’s not, “country” and “state” are interchangeable. This country currently has 29 counties and 4 city councils (thus making the “26 counties” a complete ninsense).
3. “Unionists routinely (and hypocritically) label the founders of the Irish state as terrorists and fascists.”
This is a matter of opinion, and there is certainly justification for using this description of people who take up arms without any mandate.
4. “The Garden of Rememberance commemorates those who struggled and died in the long fight for (partial) Irish independence.”
And it is also the traditional starting point for parades in Dublin. Late last year a Trade Union demo started there, iun a couple of months the Gay Pride will start from there. It has also been used as the starting point for SF/IRA, RSF, 32CSC demos.
5. “It is widely accepted that the Easter Rising was a catalyst in securing (partial) independence.” Undisputed.
6. “The headquarters of the Rising was the GPO in O’Connell Street.”
Yes strange as it may seem the 1916 rebels chose this soft and neutral target and perhaps that is why they were revived and spat at when there were finaly removed from the building.
7. “The planned loyalist march down O’Connell St was organised by Love Ulster and Willie Frazer of FAIR.”
And the route was agreed (and possibly suggested) by the authorities in this country.
8. “Willie Frazer of FAIR was recently denied a firearms licence by the PSNI for associating with loyalist paramilitaries.”
Several of those that have organised marches in Dublin have paramilitary connections, it does not and should not prevent their right to a peaceful demonstration.
9. “FAIR glorifies the memeory of the sectarian UDR and RUC, key elements of Britain’s not so secret death squad apparatus, and reponsible for many atrocities including the Dublin & Monaghan bombings.”
Proof by any chance, or just bluster?
10. “The Love Ulster march intended to walk down O’Connell St past the Garden of Rememberance and the GPO playing Orange tunes, carrying imperialist flags (thereby insulting them memory of those who laid down their lives for freedom) while seeking to blame the Irish government and the republican movement for ‘the Troubles’.”
No it intended to start at the GoR (just like other parades and follow the traditional route for marches in Dublin. If you find something wrong with “Orange tunes” then can I suggest that you start a petition for a new national flag. What is your definition of “imperialist flags”?
11. “Most (if not all) Irish people are glad to live in a (partially) independent country and remember with pride those who struggled to bring about independence.”
Most (though obviously not all) of the Irish people are glad to live in a democratic country, where basic rights like free speech and free demonstration are fostered and encouraged.
12. A small (and wealthy) elite in Irish society has become so divorced from the above points that they fail to understand how offensive this march was to a large section of the population and how stupid the authorities were in allowing it to proceed as planned.
A small core of retrobates manipulated by political neandathals will take offence at anything which does not fit their narrow definition of “Irishness” and demonstrate this with a dangerous brand of racist hated that is against everything this country stands for and would sicken the vast majority of those that fought for Irish independence.
13. “Such people are colloquially known as West Brits. ” Such people are today boing called *scum* by most of the people of Dublin.
14. “If you don’t have a British passport already you may be able to qualify thorugh your grandparents if they were born before 1921.”
I have an Irish passport, and feel no need for any other. I respect the instritutions of the country, have no problem of using its proper name, respect its laws, pay its tax and use whatever means I can to encourage the people of this country to understand what a pluralist, non sectarian state is.
If it wasn’t for the ‘fascists’ who ‘took up arms without a mandate’ there would be no such thing as an Irish passport.
As for the stuff about collusion if you want to know the truth about it go find it. It’s not difficult. Start with Google.
But something tells me you don’t want to know.
elfinto
And without the (sometimes limited) grasp of the despised english language held by by some residents of the EC funded banana republic that is the ROI the citizens of that state would be lucky to inhabit the traditional sod hut
> Would J.McConnell like to take time out from the dribble of insults towards Republicans and take a stab at answering the quaetion (sic) at comment 19?
Would it make you happy if I used exactly the same terms to describe the violent loyalists? Probably not. After all, you are the only ‘victims’ here.
Mr McConnell, you have asked a question rather than anwer the ones that I had requested of you earlier. However the answer to your question is NO I wouldn’t be happy with your remarks – the reason being that you have not answered the questions I put.
I am not really interested in slagging off and throwing insults. As for being the only victim the answer there again is NO, I am just one of many thousands left from the needless killing of over 3400 people.
At the end of day the IRA killed people, but so did the Unionist paramilitaries aided and abetted by the British State forces of the UDR/RIR/RUC/MI5 etc. etc.
The people within FAIR are the ones who believe they are the only victims. They are also the people who have stated they have no interest in other victims and are only too glad to be linked and associated with Unionist terrorist groups.
FAIR actual stands for Furthering Attacks on Irish Republicans. The actions of this group and Willie Frazer inparticular give the impression that they are devastated that there is a peace process. Even Paisley refused to travel to Dublin with them, wonder why?
Anyway, Mr McConnell, any chance of answering the questions at posting 19 on whether you – the Unionist people would support the Democratic rights of Nationalists to hold a parade in Lisburn and Ballymena to highlight the Collusion that took place between the British Army and the UDR/RIR,(whose main bases are in these 2 towns), and the Unionist paramilitary death squads of the UDA/UVF/UFF etc.
An answer to the other questions would be nice as well, thanks.
“I was listening to Jeffery Donaldson on NewTalk 106 this morning and “Justice minister” McDowell on RTE last night and I swear to God the accent is the only way I could tell them apart.
Both “men” were trying their damnedest to drag Sinn Fein into this and suceeding in some respects, tarring all Republicans with the same brush, but when it comes to Unionist violence its only a “small, unrepresentative majority” that carries out the actions seen in the North during the last marching season.” – slug9
Yup, McDowell is a shameless propagandist. Here’s another quote from him: “We cannot have a situation where a group of thugs prevent some people from exercising their civil liberties, but insist that O’Connell Street and the GPO is always available for their macabre demonstrations whenever they want to have them.”
Note that Frazer’s mob is “exercising their civil liberties” but Republicans are “a group of thugs” whose ‘civil liberties’ are dismissed as no more meaningful than “macabre demonstrations.”
This defence of civil rights by Mr McDowell would be more convincing were it not for the rather inconvenient fact that the man he is promoting as a champion of civil rights, Willie Frazer, supports the murder of the civil rights lawyer, Pat Finucane.
I laff every time a catholic talks of colluision, this coming from ira supporters which murdered more of their own people than any other group over the troubles.
Catholics dont want a unionist about the place, what happened in dublin was another manifestion of their BRITS OUT policy , they want rid of everything british, including the extermination of every british man woman and child
Elfinto, you said: “let’s have a Justice For The Victims of State Supported Death Squads March…”
Given that it now appears the provisional movement was infiltrated from top to bottom by British agents, and given they were the most prolific murder gang of the lot, it could be argued that that’s precisely what Willie Frazer et al were trying to do in Dublin.
This entire thread has laid bare the ‘Building an Ireland of Equals’ lie. There’s one great central thread from provisional posters – that the whole rally project was just a loyalist rabble down for the day to act macho, play their blood and thunder music and look tough. Further, the underlying tone is that their expression of their ‘culture’ – in Dublin at the weekend and more generally on the streets of the North – has no merit, relying as it does on vaguely pathetic militaristic displays and dubious music.
Anyone who doubts the absolute hypocrisy of this position should have a look at the photo in today’s Irish News from the provo rally / march that took place in Strabane the day after the Dublin riots.
NORTHERN FF
Sorry mate, you’re well wide of the mark again.
It was Dubs who stopped the Orangemen from marching, not nationalists from the north, not the Provos, not the 32CSM and not even RSF.
Furthermore, the way you brand anyone who disagrees with you a Provo is disgraceful.
Spook Operations for complete beginners
—————————————-
1. Use agents to infiltrate a hostile organisation in order to undermine it
2. Use agents within frindly organisations to direct deniable attacks against a hostile organisation and its perceived supporters.
Now see if you can understand the difference. General Frank Kitson did. That’s why he made it the basis of British Couter-Insurgency operations.
Glad to be of assistance
elFinto
“No it’s not, “country” and “state” are interchangeable. This country currently has 29 counties and 4 city councils (thus making the “26 counties” a complete ninsense).”
State and country are not interchangable. Otherwise you are saying that there was no German nation during partition, and that there is no Korean nation now.
The Irish considered themselves a separate nation from the British when the South was part of the Union. Northern and Southern nationalists share a common irish national identity and not a British one. You are wrong.
It looks like it will be a long time before there can be a united ireland.
Sure FAIR only represent their own victims – much like any other lobbying group. This is hardly controversial and there are plenty of other groups only concerned with a specific set of victims.
Like other groups, the victims of FAIR included people who were heavily involved in paramilitarism and terrorism.
What appears to have been controverisal is that they have attempted to highlight their victims in a place which has been a target of some of their victims. This was never going to be a popular move, but I do not believe that it was intended to be a provocation – FAIR have legitimate concerns about Irish state collusion with republican death squads in Armagh & the parade was to raise publicity for this.
The resulting riots have not furthered the cause of FAIR – I have not seen a single post discussing state collusion, but plenty about provocation and freedom of expression.
And I would like to know if anyone here predicted the riots. I don’t remember anything on the earlier threads *before* the march went ahead. If no-one here, with all their political insight and inside knowledge, could predict a riot – how could a minister?
above post Pat Mc Larnon2 09.09AM was from DK.
And another thing – please stop bringing up things that happened nearly 100 years ago. Times have moved on a bit – the relevence to today pointless as the events were so poorly documented and confused that anyone can read anything they want into them.
Pat? “Otherwise you are saying that there was no German nation during partition, and that there is no Korean nation now.”
There were two German states/countries during partition and there are two Korean states/countries now. I never mentioned the word “nation” because this word is far more ambiguous.
“The Irish considered themselves a separate nation from the British when the South was part of the Union.”
Again I never mantioned the word “nation”. The Scots, Welsh and English consider themselves sepatate nations, but all live quite happily in one state/country.
“Northern and Southern nationalists share a common irish national identity and not a British one. You are wrong.”
Bringing “nation” and “national identity” are broadly irrelevant here. However for the record, one can be English and British, Scottish and British and Irish and British. This is now implicity recognised in the constitution of this country.
JK1,
I can say truthfully, hand on my heart, that I withnessed no-one involved in the Love Ulster rally carrying any UVF or UFF flags – in a communique given to all participants beforehand, the Love Ulster organisers stated that everyone involved with the rally were to act with “decorum” and paramilitary symbols were expressly forbidden…
The 1:40pm post was by Concerned Loyalist and not McLarnon5…
Pat,
It is obvious you don’t have a clue what you are talking about when you talk of the
“Unionist paramilitary death squads of the UDA/UVF/UFF”.
1) They are LOYALIST, not Unionist paramilitaries…
2) The UFF are the UDA’s military wing. For someone to be an active service member of the UFF they have to be a member of the UDA- they are not two different organisations but a “force within a force” to coin a phrase.
Concerned Loyalist
So many barbs have been traded in this discussion, when in truth what is at stake is one ideal. In a free, democratic society groups, weather loved or hated, must be free to march, demonstrate, parade etc… HOWEVER, it is the duty of the state to insure that the place that this demonstration takes place is the least controversial. I have watched the f’n Klu Klux Klan march far to often. They aren’t allowed through areas that could be considered flash points, the police are bright enough to figure that emotions will run high and send marches through easily protected areas. (The jackass(es) who didn’t think about broken pavement deserve a lashing. ) However, they march, there is NOTHING redeeming about the KKK. They are disgusting, but they march, and we watch and someone always ends up throwing punches, but the police manage it, because they expect it is coming.
I posted the above…don’t know why it say Pat Mc
FK
Wow Pat, you’re omnipresent!
FK
This issue of Robert McConnell is a nonsense. The man was never convicted of anything and there is NO evidence to suggest he was involved in the Dublin/Mon Bombings. There is conjecture nothing more. For a movement that so espouses the principal of Justice wheres Roberts?-Typical whataboutery. He WAS a Protestant supporting his own and his extended family in an area where Protestants are not allowed to express their opinions then and to this day if they differ from the SF line. He WAS murdered by the IRA.
jk
> J McConnell – your cover has been blown….
You have just giving me my biggest laugh so far in my posting career on slugger.
Unlike most people here I am not hiding behind a nom de guerre…
Email me if you are in Dublin and I’ll prove it by showing you exactly the same name printed on my credit card when I buy you a drink..
And no, I was not aware of the ’74 surname connection..
the real genuine
J McConnell
Pat
Just because I see some merit in the Unionist position, and see little merit in the politics of Republicanism, this does not make me a Northern Unionist, or put me in a position to speak for anyone.
As someone who believes in liberal democracy, and in an absolute right to free speech and to public assembly, I will defend *everybodies* right to say whatever they want, wherever they want. And as long as the assembly does not commit violence or threaten violence it should be allowed to march whenever it wants, wherever it wants.
If by-standers or people living on the route take offense at the marchers and opinions expressed by the marchers then tough. Disagree with the marchers opinions then there are lots of non-violent non-intimidating ways of showing your disapproval. Start shouting abuse, start throwing missiles, start try to prevent the march from following its intended route, and then I really dont care what the riot police do to you. Baton charges, water-cannons, tear gas, – whatever response is proportionate.
Nobody has an absolute right to take offense, and certainly nobody has a right to use the fact that they are offended by something or someone to interfere with other peoples fundamental civil and civic rights.
A possible (or actual) violent response by onlookers is a never a valid reason to curtail peoples fundamental civil rights. I assign absolutely no value to the rhetoric of victimization and victimhood that has been used by both sides. It has no place in a liberal democracy.
Marches intended to provoke will soon peter out if they do receive the desired response from onlookers. Ignore them and they will eventually go away. Marches intended to draw attention to a particular point of view, commemorates some event, or express a particular political beliefs will continue because they reflect genuine sentiments, and they should be respected and supported by everyone who believes in a civil society.
So if Gerry and the boys are serious about their respect for other people civil rights maybe they should join the Love Ulster people next time they are marching in Dublin, as an act of solidarity. And maybe we should get Big Ian down to the GPO for the Easter Rising parade where he could be an honoured guest, as an act of solidarity and Christian Forgiveness.
Because that’s what democracy is all about. Respecting and defending the civil and civic rights of those whose opinions you totally disagree with and for those who you find totally repugnant.
J McConnell