RTE have just put out a few words from their injured reporter Charlie Bird, who was pursued by rioters, attacked and called “Orange Bastard” by his attackers. Several people have been arrested and put before the courts already. It may be interesting to see precisely who turns up there over the next few days. Republican Sinn Fein denies being involved, but blames the Unionists for provoking the riots.
Coming up to the Halloween holiday, some people might be frightened of the idea of Voices from the Grave – but for others, the chance to hear an oral history of the Troubles from the mouths of two (in)famous protagonists, PUP leader and former UVF member David Ervine, and Brendan “The Dark” Hughes, is not [...] read our review »
I share many of the concerns of Andy Pollak, whose recent post ‘My Response to the Slugger Begrudgers’ zeroed in on the ‘relentless flow of negativity’ of some Slugger commentators. Pollak’s post was largely concerned with the medium of the blog. Indeed, I think the anonymity of the online world encourages extreme discourse and allows [...] read our review »
Charlie looked pretty shaken up when initally interviewed and it was clear that only for Special Branch intervention he might have been seriously hurt. He also stated that journalists seemed to be deliberately singled out for attention, which seems surprisng.
He’s not the only one either Pat. We’ve heard from one journalist who was threatened (though not attacked) in no uncertain terms too.
It would appear the dissidents have been planning this one for quite a while.
Interesting comments from Bertie Ahern, suggesting that some northern dissidents had their ranks swelled by undesirables from the locality, eager to partake in any civil disturbances.
In any case, I’d imagine the dissidents will actually chalk this one up as a ‘success,’ thereby indicating how far removed they are from the republican political mainstream.
I had the dubious pleasure of being on the ground on O’Connell Street before this kicked off and during the early part of it. Not pleasant at all.
It was clear to me from about 12.15 that there was going to be trouble – gangs of young guys, many wearing those ‘IRA – Undefeated Army” t-shirts were roaming around, giving and getting instructions on mobile phones.
Some were carrying fireworks and quite a few also seemed to be drinking.
The parade was never going to make it as far as the GPO, never mind Leinster House.
Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents rather than people from the Republic. This whole episode is an embarressment to the island as a whole.
If this constitutes what nationalist/republican folk mean by cherishing all the children of the nation equally in a 32 county state, I’ll be giving it a bye ball…thanks all the same!
I would like to see Irish democrats having a protest against the riot along the same route next week.
i witnessed much of the rioting and it was the same story with any dublin disturbance:a few people actually commited to the cause (in this case sinn fein men) throw a few stones then every junkie and scumbag within a radius of ten miles arrives lookin for a mill.most of the rioters i saw were alcoholics and tracksuited knackers just off the ballybough bus.
Realist-
You know perfectly well that true republicans and nationalists have given no support whatsoever to these scumbags. Check out our site for proof of that. These idiots do more harm to the concept of a united Ireland than anyone else could.
NorthernFF-
Would that be the Undefeated Army t-shirt available on the Sinn Féin website? Hopefully no provos were involved, but I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. It would seem that RSF were the orchestrators, but who knows what idiots were tagging along.
I have to say I had no idea that Charlie Bird was either an orangeman or illegitimate, but I do know that this incident, (which appears to have made the shinners look soft for gawds sake) has set the cause of persauding any shade of unionism into a united Ireland back about 50 years.
Building An Ireland of Equals ?
.
“united ireland back about 50 years” yada yada yada. Heres the elephant in the room: unionists were/are never going to volunteer for ui. So what are we going to do when it gets to 50+1. say pwetty pweease Mr Frazer. What happened today was some idiots playing at munich in the 20′s for airtime (apologies for the analogy godfrey/godwin or whatever to feck your name is.
“If this constitutes what nationalist/republican folk mean by cherishing all the children of the nation equally in a 32 county state, I’ll be giving it a bye ball…thanks all the same!”
Realist
I was expecting this response from unionists looking to make a point. Jeffrey Donaldson, Michael Copeland and many others on this site have been quick out of the blocs in this regard, looking to use this incident as justification for being against a united Ireland.
Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous!
Firstly, if you are against a united Ireland and thereby in favour of a union with Britain, then the strength of your own political opinion should be enough reason to oppose Irish unity.
Constantly seeking justifications for your political opinions only suggests that they have less than firm foundations.
The behaviour of the rioters in Dublin today was absolutely wrong on many levels for any republican. Today should have been about allowing unionists to take their case to the nation’s capital and parade to their hearts content without interference.
That we are instead discussing the violent scenes visited upon Dublin today is a real shame, and once again an indication of how out of touch the dissidents are with republican sentiment.
But let’s not try to exaggerate the significance of this episode: Love Ulster-ites marching through Dublin wasn’t going to convince any unionists of the merits of a united Ireland today, just as the ability or otherwise of republicans to parade through London (unhindered) or Edinburgh (facing violence) is not going to persuade nationalists of the merits of maintaining the union with Britain.
Shure, Pat, you and the rest of your brave, bould army are just going to knock over those Jaffas when der tag comes. The only thing that puzzles me is why you haven’t done it sooner. It’ll be a piece of cake . . . [Yawns into red, white and blue infinity]
Pat McL “He also stated that journalists seemed to be deliberately singled out for attention, which seems surprisng.” Not a all this is typical fascist behaviour, trying to stop the media reporting the story in a balanced way.
Nothern FF “It would appear the dissidents have been planning this one for quite a while.”. Indeeed petrol boms and skips filled with bottles don’t appear from thin air. Once again it demonstrates how impotent the SF/IRA leadership is in influencing elements with the Irish repblican ranks.
Keith G “Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents”. Au contraire, Charlie Bird is an instantly recognizable person in this country, but hardly known in N.I.
Pat – That’s not one of my quotes. I didn’t mention dissis.
Among what I pointed out was the fact that quite a number of the people I saw limbering up for the fight were wearing IRA – Undefeated Army t-shirts.
And yes El Matador, they were the same ones taht caused the broohaha on the PSF website.
Actually Pat you might be surprised — there certainly are a small (if undoubtedly quiet) clique of unionists (with a small u) who would seriously consider a UI. I should point out that I’m not one of them, but I do know people whose attitude is ‘I really wouldn’t care if there was a UI as long as I’m left alone to get on with my life.’ Incidents such as today’s little kickoff are unlikely to swell the ranks of this little club.
50 + 1 won’t be tomorrow or next year or even next decade and rather than endless elections to the money-pit assembly, there should be a border poll held every five years or so.
PMC 2:
“Keith G “Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents”. Au contraire, Charlie Bird is an instantly recognizable person in this country, but hardly known in N.I.”
Isn’t that the point he was trying to make? Bird would not be recognised as a RTÉ reporter by the rioting fools and therefore was attacked by them on the assumption that he was a supporter of LU/FAIR?
“Once again it demonstrates how impotent the SF/IRA leadership is in influencing elements with the Irish repblican ranks.”
Sinn Féin have no control whatsoever over RSF. The two groups hate each other. Don’t think Gerry has any pull over RSF members. It’s ridiculous to suggest SF is impotent in controlling elements within the republican ranks. 300 people could have been many thousands if SF hadn’t specifically called for no protests to be held.
-Manc
Jeffrey Donaldson srikes me as soft-DUP, and I actually thought it quite witty of him when he said: ” Northern Nationalists would like us to have speaking rights inside the Dail, and I can’t even speak outside the Dail “
He was also quick to say the rioters were a lunatic fringe, so fair play to him.
Bird would not be recognised as a RTÉ reporter by the rioting fools and therefore was attacked by them on the assumption that he was a supporter of LU/FAIR?
No, they addressed him by name so they knew exactly who he was.
Fair enough Henry94. Not getting much news coverage over here at the minute so the details are still a bit sketchy for me.
-Manc
karl interesting handle as your namesake is apparently under pressure and on the way out
charlie bird an orange bastard? no, a provie bastard, yes.
Lets look for the positives gerrylvscastro. no nationalist politicians/leaders were out warning of and predicting armagedoon over this march/demonstration and dublin is not tonight wracked with gunbattles and mayhem over the right to march. it would be unfair to be too critical.it was just maniacs and counter-maniacs
I was expecting this response from unionists looking to make a point.
And what?, haven’t Unionists the right to make valid points?
You’re essentaily complaining that unionists are using the fact that some people called people orange bastards as a reason to call them sectarian….
( are there no levels those filthy orange bastards wont stoop to, eh?)
Jeffrey Donaldson, Michael Copeland and many others on this site have been quick out of the blocs in this regard, looking to use this incident as justification for being against a united Ireland.
Jesus man, can you hear yourself?
They have every right to feel this way, everything they said has been proven correct.And I’ll tell you what else, you are making things a hell of a lot worse by your attitude.
Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous!
Is there anything a unionist could say or do that you wouldn’t find ludicrous?
Firstly, if you are against a united Ireland and thereby in favour of a union with Britain, then the strength of your own political opinion should be enough reason to oppose Irish unity.
But peoples opinions tend to be shaped by their experiences, no?
Constantly seeking justifications for your political opinions only suggests that they have less than firm foundations.
I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them.
But let’s not try to exaggerate the significance of this episode: Love Ulster-ites marching through Dublin wasn’t going to convince any unionists of the merits of a united Ireland today,
You really are out of touch.It wasn’t about convincing people of the merits of a united Ireland, it was a chance to create an atmposphere in which you would have the opportunity to try and persuade over the coming years.
The only way a united ireland will be viable (regardless of any vote in the six counties) is through persuading unionists.
It’s a long dierty job, but someones got to do it.The pity is that not only has no started to do the job, but it just got a little bit harder.
just as the ability or otherwise of republicans to parade through London (unhindered) or Edinburgh (facing violence) is not going to persuade nationalists of the merits of maintaining the union with Britain.
A silly comparison to make.
mick Fealty 1
“I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.”
You accuse others of being only too quick to make these events fit in with their own agendas – but look, this is the kind of thing Irish southerners (and quite frankly, the rest of the United kingdom) say every 12th of July. Today a riot led to the march being called off for security reasons – more than once we’ve seen madness across Northern Ireland over days as a result of this kind of dispute. Let’s just accept that both sides have their embarrassments, and recognise that trying to make out this is the Republic showing its true colours regarding its attitude to Unionism is no more true than to say that Northern Ireland is populated entirely by maniacs who will riot at the drop of a hat.
Excellent post Dave
Mick,
One relatively minor adverse spin-off of this sorry episode is the avalanche of spurious propagandising fron unionist sources -of which phenomenon I’m afraid your posting is a classic example.
The ROI actually emerges with credit.We have it from the mouth of Jeffrey Donaldson ,no less, that most of the 300 or so rioters were blow-ins from NI.
The NI secatarian contagion in other words made a cameo appearance in the Dublin city centre in the faces of a populace and a police force completely unused to and unprepared for this sort of thing.If you want to form any extrapolations about the ROI from this fracas you must base it on the only group of players composed virtually entirely of ROI citizens -namely the Garda Siochana who put their bodies on the line to protect a unionist demonstration from invasive NI nationalist rowdies.
Incidentally do you not think that postings like the above sit uneasily with your role as impartial moderator?
-Southern Observer
EEK Chaos in the comment zones. I have a solution, but I can’t do it tonight. If everyone could put the real names at the bottom it will help. Like this:
Mick Fealty
Mick,
Does that mean the posting i replied to above was not by you? If so,my apologies.
-Southern Observer.
Mea Culpa.
I made the post.
As for Jeffrey, he didn’t say that most of the rioters came from the North, he said some of them did.
Besides which, I make no difference, an Irish republican is an Irish republican.
To try and excuse them because they come from the north is a partitionist argument.
Besides which, I’ve yet to hear of a northerner appearing in court, but there have been several people from the republic so far.
Let’s use those figures as a better judge of where the rioters where from, no?
~~TAFKABO~~
All the 13 charged so far have Dublin addresses. Clearly the more experienced northeners got away.
Henry94
Ah, but remember the rule.
The lack of Northern Republicans is a sure sign that they had siomething to do with it.
How much lack of evidence have the Garda found to support the theory?
In reply to the ‘Mick’ (in inverted commas as I don’t know if the comment zone attributed that post falsely) who responded to my post: I couldn’t really put it any better than Southern Observer and Dave have already done.
Let’s be honest: as a republican, I would have loved the day to go entirely peacefully, as was the expressed wish (and honest expectation) of all political leaders in the south, including that of Gerry Adams. The fact that the Gardai did not have a more physical presence from the outset indicates how much a surprise the riot was to those in authority.
That it didn’t is obviously a disappointment and a setback in the sense that we all hoped a peaceful day would allow those of us pursuing the objective of Irish unity to point to how pluralist modern Ireland has become.
That has been denied us, because of the actions of a very small and unrepresentative faction.
However, the apocalyptic responses of many, inferring that the cause of Irish unity has all but been destroyed because Willie Frazer and his bands didn’t get to march through Dublin, is simply blowing the incident out of all proportions.
Have unionists won a PR battle today? The answer is undoubtedly Yes. I’ve no doubt that the Love Ulster organisers would have been rubbing their hands with glee as they returned north with their stereotypical view of the south confirmed.
But there are other conclusions to be reached today. The dissident movement has once again revealed itself to be politically illiterate in not recognising that, were the parade to pass off peacefully, the PR battle would have been won by nationalism/ republicanism.
But, PR battles, victories or defeats aside, the end result would most certainly not have been to convince unionists in one fell swoop of the benefits of Irish unity.
Unionists who may be inching towards a broad acceptance of an all-Ireland future will undoubtedly be disappointed, and even shocked, by what they saw today. But I’d like to think that the same individuals would acknowledge the strength and uniformity of opinion supporting the parade in the first place and condemning the tiny faction responsible for the violence in the aftermath.
There are many unionists who were undoubtedly in Dublin today making a weekend out of tomorrow’s rugby encounter with Wales (and they will be joined by many more tomorrow.) Their experiences of the south are a world apart from that witnessed in Dublin today.
Similarly, those unionists who made the trip south to support their teams involved in the Setanta Cup were full of praise for their hosts – as indeed were Derry City’s officials and fans for their Linfield hosts this past week.
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that today’s debacle is a setback for nationalists and republicans. But it should not be the occasion for hysterical predictions about the nationalist cause, quite simply because the reaction to the Love Ulster brigade today in Dublin bears little or no resemblance to the unionist experience of the 26 counties in this modern era.
Chris
“I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them. ”
I think Northern Unionists should not be blind to the role of the Gardai in protecting them from the mob today. It shows that the Southern state is capable of protecting the safety of non-Catholics. There are 2 ways of looking at this. And anyway 300 rioters is 1/10,000 of Southerners – and they weren’t all Southerners or even Irish. Having a Dublin address does not mean you are Irish. 4 so far are confirmed as foreigners. There was an anarchist element to this as seen in recent violent demonstrations against globalisation across the world e.g. Mayday.
Brian Boru wrote this, not Dave0 as suggested earlier.
“I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them. “
I think Northern Unionists should not be blind to the role of the Gardai in protecting them from the mob today. It shows that the Southern state is capable of protecting the safety of non-Catholics. There are 2 ways of looking at this. And anyway 300 rioters is 1/10,000 of Southerners – and they weren’t all Southerners or even Irish. Having a Dublin address does not mean you are Irish. 4 so far are confirmed as foreigners. There was an anarchist element to this as seen in recent violent demonstrations against globalisation across the world e.g. Mayday.
Fair point Chris
I’m going down for the game tomorrow,and a few hundred sumbags will not change my plans – why?
Because its clear that those who took part in the riot today are not representative of the population in general.
I’m a sports fan but some of the reactions i have looked at this evening seem to be trying to push their own agenda rather than taking a rational view of what is an isolated incident
I dont think any right minded person could do anything but condemn todays violence and thuggery outright.
Two small points, if I may? One, as a veteran of dozens of parades in the North, no matter what level of repsonse you are expecting, you try not to bring your marchers past an open buidling site. I couldnt believe it when I saw the route, although I believe that there were also barrels filled with bottles in preparation. I think the Gardai should have secured any of those open sites, but to be fair I am not sure of what the advance preparation for today was.
Second point is brief, but there is a true sense of irony now that the Love Ulster campaigners will not rest until they assert their right to march in the captial city of Ireland. Brings a real 32 county dimension to the whole thing, doesnt it?
Missfitz
”the reaction to the Love Ulster brigade today in Dublin bears little or no resemblance to the unionist experience of the 26 counties in this modern era.”
You certainly got that one right Chris. I took the family for a Dublin weekend in January and all I can say is never again. Jaw-dropping prices for just about everything, nasty looking hoods roaming the streets at night, a used syringe at the hotel entrance (nice welcome), traffic chaos, and surly staff (with the notable exception of non-nationals) combined to make us delighted to take the road home. But at least we didn’t see any riots……..
Sorry that last one (11:58) was by GLC not Dave. It’s mad I tell you….
GLC
To RSF and the dissident republicans, even Gerry Adams probably seems like an “Orange Bastard”. That’s how extreme they are.
Brian Boru
“even Gerry Adams probably seems like an “Orange Bastard”
Well, according to some rumours……..
The people marching enjoy a good riot themselves [white rock] so they probably felt right at home in Dublin.
The riots yesterday may have produced some reasons to be fearful of a united ireland but possibly not those mentioned here. From what I’ve heard the big message is about problems in the southern state – not so much how it relates to unionism but some problems and disaffection with the institutions of that state – in particular the Gardai.
This all ‘kicked off’ in a garda district that has an unresolved, suspicious death in custody (Terence Wheelock) poisoning the relationship between the local community and their police force. Since RTE and TV3 carried footage of guards beating the RTS off Dame street in 2002 there has been a litany of corruption and violence scandals that have tainted peoples relationship with the Gardai. Same as when the nordie footballers come down to Dublin 1 and show how to win at football as a Dub I see what they’re doing but am a bit pissed off. Maybe during Saturday there was some tactical and motivational work by visitors – but this riot was so big because a large number of ordinary Dublin people were into seeing the guards get a beating. They definitely joined in with any nordie visitors.
For those in Parnell square who were ostensibly the target it must have been frightening and possibly to quote Mick Fealty their “fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.” But from talking to a lot of people who were in town, I’m not so sure that as many people would have thrown the handily supplied bricks at the loveulster marchers as were willing to throw them at the Gardai.
If the people of Dublin think so little of the institutions of the Irish state, how could you ask a unionist to respect them?
Will the southern Irish policy of supplying bricks, paving stones, barricades and iron bars to large unruly mobs be the sort of political leadership that will finally convince you all to learn the cupla focal and spend in euros?
Is it any wonder the entire southern establishment (which now includes PSF) have jumped to condemn the riots – i would suggest it was them rather than unionism which was attacked.
-seedot
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
Today the unionist of the orange order saw that there are those in the Republic of Ireland who will say no to their marches.
posted by Kathy C
Quite obviously a lot of the quoted comments cannot be attributed to my good self. Mick, the site is crap. And you expect a healthy contribution?
To be fair it has to be said that Charlie’s permatan (sunbed or spray on do you think?) does give him a bit of an orange hue.
- Harry Flashman -
Republican Sinn Féin, 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1
Telephone: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757
e-mail: s a o i r s e @ i o l . i e
229 Falls Road, Belfast, BT12 6FB
Telephone 9031 9004 Fax: 9031 9863
Just in case anyone wants to vent their anger. I’ve already sent these cunts a couple of vicious e-mails. Maybe now some unwanted pizzas/taxis/piles of manure?
This should finally signal the end of the pipe dream that is a united Ireland.
If you want to persuade us into thinking Unionist views and culture will be respected in a one island state, then a major rethink is needed on the part of republican nazis.
Chris Donnelly “Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous”
Chris, far from it, he made a valid point, Republicians want Northern MPs to have speaking rights inside the Dail, yet as he poined out, he was stopped from speaking outside it, by Republicians, a free kick for Jeffrey and his ilk.