RTE reporter attacked and called “Orange Bastard”

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RTE have just put out a few words from their injured reporter Charlie Bird, who was pursued by rioters, attacked and called “Orange Bastard” by his attackers. Several people have been arrested and put before the courts already. It may be interesting to see precisely who turns up there over the next few days. Republican Sinn Fein denies being involved, but blames the Unionists for provoking the riots.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Charlie looked pretty shaken up when initally interviewed and it was clear that only for Special Branch intervention he might have been seriously hurt. He also stated that journalists seemed to be deliberately singled out for attention, which seems surprisng.

  • Mick Fealty

    He’s not the only one either Pat. We’ve heard from one journalist who was threatened (though not attacked) in no uncertain terms too.

  • Chris Donnelly

    It would appear the dissidents have been planning this one for quite a while.

    Interesting comments from Bertie Ahern, suggesting that some northern dissidents had their ranks swelled by undesirables from the locality, eager to partake in any civil disturbances.

    In any case, I’d imagine the dissidents will actually chalk this one up as a ‘success,’ thereby indicating how far removed they are from the republican political mainstream.

  • NORTHERN FF

    I had the dubious pleasure of being on the ground on O’Connell Street before this kicked off and during the early part of it. Not pleasant at all.

    It was clear to me from about 12.15 that there was going to be trouble – gangs of young guys, many wearing those ‘IRA – Undefeated Army” t-shirts were roaming around, giving and getting instructions on mobile phones.

    Some were carrying fireworks and quite a few also seemed to be drinking.

    The parade was never going to make it as far as the GPO, never mind Leinster House.

  • http://talideon.com/ Keith Gaughan

    Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents rather than people from the Republic. This whole episode is an embarressment to the island as a whole.

  • Realist

    If this constitutes what nationalist/republican folk mean by cherishing all the children of the nation equally in a 32 county state, I’ll be giving it a bye ball…thanks all the same!

  • Henry94

    I would like to see Irish democrats having a protest against the riot along the same route next week.

  • Dubliner

    i witnessed much of the rioting and it was the same story with any dublin disturbance:a few people actually commited to the cause (in this case sinn fein men) throw a few stones then every junkie and scumbag within a radius of ten miles arrives lookin for a mill.most of the rioters i saw were alcoholics and tracksuited knackers just off the ballybough bus.

  • http://elblogador.blogspot.com El Matador @ ElBlogador.com

    Realist-

    You know perfectly well that true republicans and nationalists have given no support whatsoever to these scumbags. Check out our site for proof of that. These idiots do more harm to the concept of a united Ireland than anyone else could.

    NorthernFF-

    Would that be the Undefeated Army t-shirt available on the Sinn Féin website? Hopefully no provos were involved, but I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. It would seem that RSF were the orchestrators, but who knows what idiots were tagging along.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    I have to say I had no idea that Charlie Bird was either an orangeman or illegitimate, but I do know that this incident, (which appears to have made the shinners look soft for gawds sake) has set the cause of persauding any shade of unionism into a united Ireland back about 50 years.

  • Glen Taisie

    Building An Ireland of Equals ?

    .

  • gerryandthepersuaders

    “united ireland back about 50 years” yada yada yada. Heres the elephant in the room: unionists were/are never going to volunteer for ui. So what are we going to do when it gets to 50+1. say pwetty pweease Mr Frazer. What happened today was some idiots playing at munich in the 20′s for airtime (apologies for the analogy godfrey/godwin or whatever to feck your name is.

  • Chris Donnelly

    “If this constitutes what nationalist/republican folk mean by cherishing all the children of the nation equally in a 32 county state, I’ll be giving it a bye ball…thanks all the same!”

    Realist

    I was expecting this response from unionists looking to make a point. Jeffrey Donaldson, Michael Copeland and many others on this site have been quick out of the blocs in this regard, looking to use this incident as justification for being against a united Ireland.

    Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous!

    Firstly, if you are against a united Ireland and thereby in favour of a union with Britain, then the strength of your own political opinion should be enough reason to oppose Irish unity.

    Constantly seeking justifications for your political opinions only suggests that they have less than firm foundations.

    The behaviour of the rioters in Dublin today was absolutely wrong on many levels for any republican. Today should have been about allowing unionists to take their case to the nation’s capital and parade to their hearts content without interference.

    That we are instead discussing the violent scenes visited upon Dublin today is a real shame, and once again an indication of how out of touch the dissidents are with republican sentiment.

    But let’s not try to exaggerate the significance of this episode: Love Ulster-ites marching through Dublin wasn’t going to convince any unionists of the merits of a united Ireland today, just as the ability or otherwise of republicans to parade through London (unhindered) or Edinburgh (facing violence) is not going to persuade nationalists of the merits of maintaining the union with Britain.

  • http://www.rnc.org Karl Rove

    Shure, Pat, you and the rest of your brave, bould army are just going to knock over those Jaffas when der tag comes. The only thing that puzzles me is why you haven’t done it sooner. It’ll be a piece of cake . . . [Yawns into red, white and blue infinity]

  • Keith M

    Pat McL “He also stated that journalists seemed to be deliberately singled out for attention, which seems surprisng.” Not a all this is typical fascist behaviour, trying to stop the media reporting the story in a balanced way.

    Nothern FF “It would appear the dissidents have been planning this one for quite a while.”. Indeeed petrol boms and skips filled with bottles don’t appear from thin air. Once again it demonstrates how impotent the SF/IRA leadership is in influencing elements with the Irish repblican ranks.

    Keith G “Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents”. Au contraire, Charlie Bird is an instantly recognizable person in this country, but hardly known in N.I.

  • NORTHERN FF

    Pat – That’s not one of my quotes. I didn’t mention dissis.

    Among what I pointed out was the fact that quite a number of the people I saw limbering up for the fight were wearing IRA – Undefeated Army t-shirts.

    And yes El Matador, they were the same ones taht caused the broohaha on the PSF website.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Actually Pat you might be surprised — there certainly are a small (if undoubtedly quiet) clique of unionists (with a small u) who would seriously consider a UI. I should point out that I’m not one of them, but I do know people whose attitude is ‘I really wouldn’t care if there was a UI as long as I’m left alone to get on with my life.’ Incidents such as today’s little kickoff are unlikely to swell the ranks of this little club.
    50 + 1 won’t be tomorrow or next year or even next decade and rather than endless elections to the money-pit assembly, there should be a border poll held every five years or so.

  • Manc

    PMC 2:

    “Keith G “Well, in calling Charlie Bird an “Orange Bastard”, you’ve got proof positive that the rioters were primarily northern dissidents”. Au contraire, Charlie Bird is an instantly recognizable person in this country, but hardly known in N.I.”

    Isn’t that the point he was trying to make? Bird would not be recognised as a RTÉ reporter by the rioting fools and therefore was attacked by them on the assumption that he was a supporter of LU/FAIR?

    “Once again it demonstrates how impotent the SF/IRA leadership is in influencing elements with the Irish repblican ranks.”

    Sinn Féin have no control whatsoever over RSF. The two groups hate each other. Don’t think Gerry has any pull over RSF members. It’s ridiculous to suggest SF is impotent in controlling elements within the republican ranks. 300 people could have been many thousands if SF hadn’t specifically called for no protests to be held.

    -Manc

  • http://free-ireland.blogspot.com/ spirit-level

    Jeffrey Donaldson srikes me as soft-DUP, and I actually thought it quite witty of him when he said: ” Northern Nationalists would like us to have speaking rights inside the Dail, and I can’t even speak outside the Dail “
    He was also quick to say the rioters were a lunatic fringe, so fair play to him.

  • Henry94

    Bird would not be recognised as a RTÉ reporter by the rioting fools and therefore was attacked by them on the assumption that he was a supporter of LU/FAIR?

    No, they addressed him by name so they knew exactly who he was.

  • Manc

    Fair enough Henry94. Not getting much news coverage over here at the minute so the details are still a bit sketchy for me.

    -Manc

  • gerryandthepersuaders

    karl interesting handle as your namesake is apparently under pressure and on the way out

  • alfredo

    charlie bird an orange bastard? no, a provie bastard, yes.

  • gerryandthepersuaders

    Lets look for the positives gerrylvscastro. no nationalist politicians/leaders were out warning of and predicting armagedoon over this march/demonstration and dublin is not tonight wracked with gunbattles and mayhem over the right to march. it would be unfair to be too critical.it was just maniacs and counter-maniacs

  • TAFKABO

    I was expecting this response from unionists looking to make a point.

    And what?, haven’t Unionists the right to make valid points?

    You’re essentaily complaining that unionists are using the fact that some people called people orange bastards as a reason to call them sectarian….

    ( are there no levels those filthy orange bastards wont stoop to, eh?)

    Jeffrey Donaldson, Michael Copeland and many others on this site have been quick out of the blocs in this regard, looking to use this incident as justification for being against a united Ireland.

    Jesus man, can you hear yourself?

    They have every right to feel this way, everything they said has been proven correct.And I’ll tell you what else, you are making things a hell of a lot worse by your attitude.

    Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous!

    Is there anything a unionist could say or do that you wouldn’t find ludicrous?

    Firstly, if you are against a united Ireland and thereby in favour of a union with Britain, then the strength of your own political opinion should be enough reason to oppose Irish unity.

    But peoples opinions tend to be shaped by their experiences, no?

    Constantly seeking justifications for your political opinions only suggests that they have less than firm foundations.

    I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
    Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them.

    But let’s not try to exaggerate the significance of this episode: Love Ulster-ites marching through Dublin wasn’t going to convince any unionists of the merits of a united Ireland today,

    You really are out of touch.It wasn’t about convincing people of the merits of a united Ireland, it was a chance to create an atmposphere in which you would have the opportunity to try and persuade over the coming years.
    The only way a united ireland will be viable (regardless of any vote in the six counties) is through persuading unionists.
    It’s a long dierty job, but someones got to do it.The pity is that not only has no started to do the job, but it just got a little bit harder.

    just as the ability or otherwise of republicans to parade through London (unhindered) or Edinburgh (facing violence) is not going to persuade nationalists of the merits of maintaining the union with Britain.

    A silly comparison to make.

  • Dave

    mick Fealty 1

    “I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.”

    You accuse others of being only too quick to make these events fit in with their own agendas – but look, this is the kind of thing Irish southerners (and quite frankly, the rest of the United kingdom) say every 12th of July. Today a riot led to the march being called off for security reasons – more than once we’ve seen madness across Northern Ireland over days as a result of this kind of dispute. Let’s just accept that both sides have their embarrassments, and recognise that trying to make out this is the Republic showing its true colours regarding its attitude to Unionism is no more true than to say that Northern Ireland is populated entirely by maniacs who will riot at the drop of a hat.

  • steve

    Excellent post Dave

  • Southern Observer

    Mick,
    One relatively minor adverse spin-off of this sorry episode is the avalanche of spurious propagandising fron unionist sources -of which phenomenon I’m afraid your posting is a classic example.
    The ROI actually emerges with credit.We have it from the mouth of Jeffrey Donaldson ,no less, that most of the 300 or so rioters were blow-ins from NI.
    The NI secatarian contagion in other words made a cameo appearance in the Dublin city centre in the faces of a populace and a police force completely unused to and unprepared for this sort of thing.If you want to form any extrapolations about the ROI from this fracas you must base it on the only group of players composed virtually entirely of ROI citizens -namely the Garda Siochana who put their bodies on the line to protect a unionist demonstration from invasive NI nationalist rowdies.
    Incidentally do you not think that postings like the above sit uneasily with your role as impartial moderator?
    -Southern Observer

  • Mick Fealty

    EEK Chaos in the comment zones. I have a solution, but I can’t do it tonight. If everyone could put the real names at the bottom it will help. Like this:

    Mick Fealty

  • Southern Observer

    Mick,
    Does that mean the posting i replied to above was not by you? If so,my apologies.
    -Southern Observer.

  • TAFKABO

    Mea Culpa.

    I made the post.
    As for Jeffrey, he didn’t say that most of the rioters came from the North, he said some of them did.
    Besides which, I make no difference, an Irish republican is an Irish republican.

    To try and excuse them because they come from the north is a partitionist argument.

    Besides which, I’ve yet to hear of a northerner appearing in court, but there have been several people from the republic so far.
    Let’s use those figures as a better judge of where the rioters where from, no?

    ~~TAFKABO~~

  • Henry94

    All the 13 charged so far have Dublin addresses. Clearly the more experienced northeners got away.

    Henry94

  • TAFKABO

    Ah, but remember the rule.

    The lack of Northern Republicans is a sure sign that they had siomething to do with it.
    How much lack of evidence have the Garda found to support the theory?

  • Chris Donnelly

    In reply to the ‘Mick’ (in inverted commas as I don’t know if the comment zone attributed that post falsely) who responded to my post: I couldn’t really put it any better than Southern Observer and Dave have already done.

    Let’s be honest: as a republican, I would have loved the day to go entirely peacefully, as was the expressed wish (and honest expectation) of all political leaders in the south, including that of Gerry Adams. The fact that the Gardai did not have a more physical presence from the outset indicates how much a surprise the riot was to those in authority.

    That it didn’t is obviously a disappointment and a setback in the sense that we all hoped a peaceful day would allow those of us pursuing the objective of Irish unity to point to how pluralist modern Ireland has become.

    That has been denied us, because of the actions of a very small and unrepresentative faction.

    However, the apocalyptic responses of many, inferring that the cause of Irish unity has all but been destroyed because Willie Frazer and his bands didn’t get to march through Dublin, is simply blowing the incident out of all proportions.

    Have unionists won a PR battle today? The answer is undoubtedly Yes. I’ve no doubt that the Love Ulster organisers would have been rubbing their hands with glee as they returned north with their stereotypical view of the south confirmed.

    But there are other conclusions to be reached today. The dissident movement has once again revealed itself to be politically illiterate in not recognising that, were the parade to pass off peacefully, the PR battle would have been won by nationalism/ republicanism.

    But, PR battles, victories or defeats aside, the end result would most certainly not have been to convince unionists in one fell swoop of the benefits of Irish unity.

    Unionists who may be inching towards a broad acceptance of an all-Ireland future will undoubtedly be disappointed, and even shocked, by what they saw today. But I’d like to think that the same individuals would acknowledge the strength and uniformity of opinion supporting the parade in the first place and condemning the tiny faction responsible for the violence in the aftermath.

    There are many unionists who were undoubtedly in Dublin today making a weekend out of tomorrow’s rugby encounter with Wales (and they will be joined by many more tomorrow.) Their experiences of the south are a world apart from that witnessed in Dublin today.

    Similarly, those unionists who made the trip south to support their teams involved in the Setanta Cup were full of praise for their hosts – as indeed were Derry City’s officials and fans for their Linfield hosts this past week.

    I suppose what I’m trying to say is that today’s debacle is a setback for nationalists and republicans. But it should not be the occasion for hysterical predictions about the nationalist cause, quite simply because the reaction to the Love Ulster brigade today in Dublin bears little or no resemblance to the unionist experience of the 26 counties in this modern era.

    Chris

  • Brian Boru

    “I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
    Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them. ”

    I think Northern Unionists should not be blind to the role of the Gardai in protecting them from the mob today. It shows that the Southern state is capable of protecting the safety of non-Catholics. There are 2 ways of looking at this. And anyway 300 rioters is 1/10,000 of Southerners – and they weren’t all Southerners or even Irish. Having a Dublin address does not mean you are Irish. 4 so far are confirmed as foreigners. There was an anarchist element to this as seen in recent violent demonstrations against globalisation across the world e.g. Mayday.

  • Brian Boru

    Brian Boru wrote this, not Dave0 as suggested earlier.

    “I have the feeling that after today, a lot of peoples fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.
    Rather than dismiss those fears as unreasonable, you ought to do something about dispelling them. “

    I think Northern Unionists should not be blind to the role of the Gardai in protecting them from the mob today. It shows that the Southern state is capable of protecting the safety of non-Catholics. There are 2 ways of looking at this. And anyway 300 rioters is 1/10,000 of Southerners – and they weren’t all Southerners or even Irish. Having a Dublin address does not mean you are Irish. 4 so far are confirmed as foreigners. There was an anarchist element to this as seen in recent violent demonstrations against globalisation across the world e.g. Mayday.

  • flank

    Fair point Chris

    I’m going down for the game tomorrow,and a few hundred sumbags will not change my plans – why?

    Because its clear that those who took part in the riot today are not representative of the population in general.

    I’m a sports fan but some of the reactions i have looked at this evening seem to be trying to push their own agenda rather than taking a rational view of what is an isolated incident

  • missfitz

    I dont think any right minded person could do anything but condemn todays violence and thuggery outright.

    Two small points, if I may? One, as a veteran of dozens of parades in the North, no matter what level of repsonse you are expecting, you try not to bring your marchers past an open buidling site. I couldnt believe it when I saw the route, although I believe that there were also barrels filled with bottles in preparation. I think the Gardai should have secured any of those open sites, but to be fair I am not sure of what the advance preparation for today was.

    Second point is brief, but there is a true sense of irony now that the Love Ulster campaigners will not rest until they assert their right to march in the captial city of Ireland. Brings a real 32 county dimension to the whole thing, doesnt it?

    Missfitz

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    ”the reaction to the Love Ulster brigade today in Dublin bears little or no resemblance to the unionist experience of the 26 counties in this modern era.”

    You certainly got that one right Chris. I took the family for a Dublin weekend in January and all I can say is never again. Jaw-dropping prices for just about everything, nasty looking hoods roaming the streets at night, a used syringe at the hotel entrance (nice welcome), traffic chaos, and surly staff (with the notable exception of non-nationals) combined to make us delighted to take the road home. But at least we didn’t see any riots……..

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Sorry that last one (11:58) was by GLC not Dave. It’s mad I tell you….

    GLC

  • Brian Boru

    To RSF and the dissident republicans, even Gerry Adams probably seems like an “Orange Bastard”. That’s how extreme they are.

    Brian Boru

  • TAFKABO

    “even Gerry Adams probably seems like an “Orange Bastard”

    Well, according to some rumours……..

  • Why

    The people marching enjoy a good riot themselves [white rock] so they probably felt right at home in Dublin.

  • http://indymedia.ie seedot

    The riots yesterday may have produced some reasons to be fearful of a united ireland but possibly not those mentioned here. From what I’ve heard the big message is about problems in the southern state – not so much how it relates to unionism but some problems and disaffection with the institutions of that state – in particular the Gardai.

    This all ‘kicked off’ in a garda district that has an unresolved, suspicious death in custody (Terence Wheelock) poisoning the relationship between the local community and their police force. Since RTE and TV3 carried footage of guards beating the RTS off Dame street in 2002 there has been a litany of corruption and violence scandals that have tainted peoples relationship with the Gardai. Same as when the nordie footballers come down to Dublin 1 and show how to win at football as a Dub I see what they’re doing but am a bit pissed off. Maybe during Saturday there was some tactical and motivational work by visitors – but this riot was so big because a large number of ordinary Dublin people were into seeing the guards get a beating. They definitely joined in with any nordie visitors.

    For those in Parnell square who were ostensibly the target it must have been frightening and possibly to quote Mick Fealty their “fears of a united Ireland have been rooted in very firm foundations for a long time to come.” But from talking to a lot of people who were in town, I’m not so sure that as many people would have thrown the handily supplied bricks at the loveulster marchers as were willing to throw them at the Gardai.

    If the people of Dublin think so little of the institutions of the Irish state, how could you ask a unionist to respect them?

    Will the southern Irish policy of supplying bricks, paving stones, barricades and iron bars to large unruly mobs be the sort of political leadership that will finally convince you all to learn the cupla focal and spend in euros?

    Is it any wonder the entire southern establishment (which now includes PSF) have jumped to condemn the riots – i would suggest it was them rather than unionism which was attacked.

    -seedot

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Today the unionist of the orange order saw that there are those in the Republic of Ireland who will say no to their marches.

    posted by Kathy C

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Quite obviously a lot of the quoted comments cannot be attributed to my good self. Mick, the site is crap. And you expect a healthy contribution?

  • harry flashman

    To be fair it has to be said that Charlie’s permatan (sunbed or spray on do you think?) does give him a bit of an orange hue.

    - Harry Flashman -

  • Bemused

    Republican Sinn Féin, 223 Parnell Street, Dublin 1
    Telephone: 872 9747 Fax: 872 9757
    e-mail: s a o i r s e @ i o l . i e

    229 Falls Road, Belfast, BT12 6FB
    Telephone 9031 9004 Fax: 9031 9863

    Just in case anyone wants to vent their anger. I’ve already sent these cunts a couple of vicious e-mails. Maybe now some unwanted pizzas/taxis/piles of manure?

  • henry joy

    This should finally signal the end of the pipe dream that is a united Ireland.
    If you want to persuade us into thinking Unionist views and culture will be respected in a one island state, then a major rethink is needed on the part of republican nazis.

  • Tiny

    Chris Donnelly “Jeffrey Donaldson even managed to somehow link the riot to Sinn Fein’s demand for northern representation in Leinster House- ludicrous”

    Chris, far from it, he made a valid point, Republicians want Northern MPs to have speaking rights inside the Dail, yet as he poined out, he was stopped from speaking outside it, by Republicians, a free kick for Jeffrey and his ilk.

  • George

    Henry,
    “All the 13 charged so far have Dublin addresses. Clearly the more experienced northeners got away.”

    4 of the 13 are East Europeans with Dublin addresses.

    My own view is that this was a serious miscalculation on the part of an Garda Siochana.
    If they weren’t in a position to put this march through with the bands etc. they shouldn’t have allowed it in that form.

    For the Revolutionary 1st of May demonstrations in Berlin, where trouble is expected, the Berlin police generally number between 5 and 7 thousand.

    All items that can be used to attack the police are removed and riot police surround every building site on the route. Standard practise.

    Here we had a couple of hundred Gardai, ridiculous.

    What should have been a show of strength by the Irish state of its intentions towards northern unionists turned into a show of strength by RSF and others of theirs.

    I can tell you one thing if George Bush wanted to walk from Parnell Square to Leinster House the personell necessary to ensure it would have been on hand.

    The state was a big loser here and McDowell and the police have big questions to answer.

    George.

  • http://uvf.com protestant marcher

    we ll be there the same time next week UVF

  • nron iron

    another peaceful parade attcked by republicans when is the irish goverment and uk goverment going to realise that the sinn fein/IRA/RIRA/CIRA/INLA don’t want peace

  • Barney McGee

    The vast majority of the people of Dublin (including myself) were
    happy enough to let the parade take place despite knowing that a
    similar nationalist/republican parade in unionist areas of the North
    would certainly not be tolerated by the Orangemen. It was going to
    be great to demonstrate openness and tolerance to a people most people
    down here regard as being stuck in the 1600s. However thanks to our
    local Dublin scumbags the Orangemen went home with their heads high
    and oozing with moral righteousness. The trouble makers are the same
    crowd of nose ring bearing tree huggers that wrecked Temple Bar a few
    years ago on May Day. They represent nobody. The fact that they called
    Charlie Bird an Orange B*stard says it all.

  • elfinto

    Sorry,

    But the notion Love Ulster marchers have just had their worst fears about a United Ireland confirmed is just ridiculous.

    If these loyalists had been allowed down O’Connell St on a red carpet and given a champagne reception at Leinster House followed by 5 star accomodation at the Shelbourne they would still be implacably opposed to the idea of equality with the rest of the Irish people.

    Saturday’s episode was a very successful DUP stunt which could not have succeeded without the collaboration of Minister Michael McDowell.

  • keep outº

    So what if he was called an Orange B. Why is he not.

    These orangemen should not of been allowed in Dublin in the first place and as soon as all Northern prods are removed to britain the better.

  • missfitz

    These orangemen should not of been allowed in Dublin in the first place and as soon as all Northern prods are removed to britain the better.

    I was really pleased to see this comment from Keep Out, as I was beginning to think I was dreaming that neantherthals still exist, but here is living proof.

    KO, this idea was floated in the 1930′s, but sensible people decided it was nonsense and insulting.

    Your ideas are ludicrous, but if you want to expand with something sensible, go ahead, I always wanted to know how your thought process might go.

  • TAFKABO

    As a unionist I want to thank all the contributors from the republic for their kind words.
    I had been led to belive that partion was something only a minority on the island wanted, but now I realise that many many fine citizens of the republic also support the idea of a border.

    I just know that if we continue to work together, in a spirit of mutual hatred and contempt, then we will forever be apart.

    Thanks for making the effort, big Ian is proud of you.

    I already know that you “get” irony, the sight of tricolur waving thugs telling Unionsts they weren’t wanted showed me that
    ;-)

  • Realist

    “These orangemen should not of been allowed in Dublin in the first place and as soon as all Northern prods are removed to britain the better”

    Spoken like a budding Nick Griffith.

    I thought it was only unionists who were Nazis.

  • sam

    i am a member of the sons of ulster flute band in randalstown.i went along with a number of band members to dublin on saturday to show my support for those victims of terrorism who lost their lives and support for their families.it was sad to see the hatred shown and trouble that took place.i would like to pass on our thanks to the garda for the superb job they did. unfortunately they were not prepared for the trouble and to this they had a number of officers hurt.however.we were not out to offend the people of dublin and want to make this clear.we only wanted to highlight the suffering and grief thats been imposed on our families and neighbours. SAM

  • Roxie

    Okay, usually I just stay well clear of the whole North/South debate because it’s ridiculous.

    But FFS people! Is *anyone* here not going to whine about Unionists and Republicans?! I think we’re all missing an important point here;

    A group of people tried to stage a peaceful march to express their own views WHATEVER THEY MAY BE. The fact that not only were they unable to do this, but the whole thing has turned into another Unionist/Republican debate is absolutely shocking. The only thing I’m going to say is this – I’m not so sure I want to live in a country where people claim to applaud freedom, but only if it’s by certain groups. Everyone on this island is entitled to express themselves within the limits of the law. And if I ever have children, I won’t have them born into a society of Them Versus Us mentality.

  • darth rumsfeld

    message for Brother Bird of Montrose Press LOL 1916
    best wishes for a speedy recovery, but if you don’t pull through the lads will put your mugon the next banner
    Bos na bua!

  • Concerned Loyalist

    RSF blame us for “provoking the riots”…and how exactly did we do that when the closest we got to “protestors” were tricolour-waving hoods giving obscene middle-finger and slit-throat gestures to our buses on the way to our drop-off point around the corner from O’Connell Street?

  • Concerned Loyalist

    The 2:38pm post came courtesy of Concerned Loyalist and not George2..what is going on-why does it persist in doing this?

  • darth rumsfeld

    sorry about the identity theft there george
    it was me all along

    darth

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Sam, I was fascinated by your post. I even went to the web and tried to see if your flute band had a web site….I couldn’t find one ;o(.

    I had a few questions if you don’t mind….
    1) why was your flute band choosen to go down to Dublin?
    2) I see that the name of the group you are with is….”Son’s of Ulster Flute Band” Now, can any son of ulster join(cross community)…or just certain son’s?
    and if not all son’s in ulster can join…what is your requirements for joining your group?

  • SlugFest

    Kathy,

    Back off and leave Sam alone. He (she?) wrote a calm, innocuous post relaying his firsthand observations of the day (and his reasons for going there). You in turn attacked him.

    Take that cross off your shoulders and remind yourself that you’re an American … you are NOT part of the nationalist community that went through so much in the 60s and 70s. Nor, I’m guessing by his youthful sounding post, was Sam in any way responsible for those days, so leave him alone.

    One last remark/question: Do you think Sam would be invited to join the Clonard Martyrs band?

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    George…wow….I don’t have a cross on my shoulders and I didn’t attack Sam. I just asked Sam a few questions.

    In the US we have a group…. Son’s of Liberty…which includes sons (descendents) of the men who fought in our Revolution against the British. It is all inclusive and isn’t based upon relgion. Now…to ask if Son’s of Ulster is an inclusive or exclusive group…is a question…not an attack.

    Also, because a riot occured…I feel, it is fair to ask questions including…why was that band…Son’s of Ulster Flute Band choosen? And for that…you state I attacked Sam?

    The riot was broadcast all around the world…and if someone saw or read that a group…”Son’s of Ulster Flute Band” came down from the north of Ireland to march…it is fair to question…who and what is the Son’s of Ulster Flute Band.

    When a group claims the entirity of a region…Ulster and state they are the Son’s of that region….one can ask if it is open to all son’s and if not…why not….

    posted by Kathy C

  • TAFKABO

    When a group claims the entirity of a region…

    You mean like the rioters did on Saturday, and you have done several times by suggesting that unionists aren’t welcome in Dublin?

    Tell us more about life over there, behind the irony curtain…..

  • SlugFest

    “In the US we have a group…. Son’s of Liberty…which includes sons (descendents) of the men who fought in our Revolution against the British. It is all inclusive and isn’t based upon relgion.”

    Phooey. While the SOL may not exclude based upon religion, your very description of them (I’ve never heard of them myself, though I have heard of the DAR) is exclusionary … if you’re not the son of the son of the … and so on, you can’t join. That’s exclusionary. And might I remind you (or inform you … sounds like your knowledge of American history is as myopic as your knowledge of Irish history) that the majority, if not all, of our American forefathers were Protestant. Ergo, I doubt many Catholics are in the SOL … or DAR.

    “Also, because a riot occured…I feel, it is fair to ask questions including…why was that band…Son’s of Ulster Flute Band choosen?”

    I’m guessing it’s because they were good.

    “I don’t have a cross on my shoulders and I didn’t attack Sam”

    Phooey squared. You’ve been needling posters throughout the day on a number of threads. Sam’s the latest victim. Considering the raw emotions of everyone due to yesterday’s events, you’d think you could be a bit more sensitive, but instead you’re telling folks (on another thread) that the ROI should due away with the tricolour and replace it with a white flag w/a shamrock??? Oh, you Plastic Paddy!!!!!!!!

    “When a group claims the entirity of a region…”
    Sam’s band’s name is ‘Sons of Ulster’, not “the ONLY sons of Ulster’, just SOME ‘sons of ulster’.

    “one can ask if it is open to all son’s and if not…why not…. “
    Same question goes for the Clonard Martyrs … now answer that … or do you not even know anyone from Clonard … or anywhere else in Belfast for that matter?

    For the record, this is SlugFest speaking (as above). I tend to have very nationalist/republican leanings, but i have an extremely hard time reading your posts. You seem to have an extremely limited understanding of the NI situation and are ridiculously unsympathetic to the Unionlist and Loyalist communities. Can you not understand that attrocities happened on all sides? Can you not see the humanity in both communities???? Stop regurgitating what your parent taught you after their NORAID meetings and start thinking for yourself.

  • Realist

    “Stop regurgitating what your parent taught you after their NORAID meetings and start thinking for yourself.”

    Denis Donaldson certainly has a lot to answer for.

  • Disillusioned Paddy

    There is a very good reason why the Irish flag is GREEN, WHITE and ORANGE. We either live together or die together. Either way we will always be together.

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all, It is true that many in the American Revolution were protestant. However, there were Catholics as well. In fact Charles Carrol was the only Catholic that signed the declaration of independence…but a Catholic did sign.

    George Washington…back in Nov 5, 1771 reprimanded the troops in Cambridge Massachusetts for celebrating the anti-Catholic Guy Fawkes Day…Washington didn’t want to offend the French Catholics or the Catholics in the colonies …..I even found a web site you can check this out on
    http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/1775.html

    and George Washingto wrote a letter to Roman Catholics in March 1790 thanking them for what they did in the American Revolution…George’s words,
    “And I presume that your fellow-citzens will not forget theh patriotic part which you took in the accomplishment of their Revolution, anmd the establishment of their government; or the important assistance which they received from a nation in which the Roman Catholic faith is professed.”

    http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=396

    As for bringing my parents into the dicussion…it reminded me of what is done on the school play ground…call someone’s parents a name….but fyi…my parents never went to a noraid meeting…

    Now to the Green white and orange. Like I said on the other thread…it is a flag that groups people according to their religion…I would like to see aN Irish flag that doesn’t do that…that’s why I like the shamrock…the world over knows the shamrock is an Irish symbol….

    And another fyi….I’m Catholic as well as a Daughter of the American Revolution…fancy that eh?

  • Kathy C

    Posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    I forgot in the above to respond to the Clonard Martyrs comment. I don’t know whether they have a flute band…I thought flute bands just came and played at the commerations….I really can’t comment on a band I don’t know anything about..but the name doesn’t show that it is a large area of Ireland.
    My point about Sons of Ulster….if you say that…then it implies it includes all sons of ulster…but the sons of ulster is a protestant group…ergo a more appropriate name would be something like Orange sons’ of Ulster, or Protestant sons of Ulster….that is all I was saying….

  • Brian Boru

    “These orangemen should not of been allowed in Dublin in the first place and as soon as all Northern prods are removed to britain the better” ”

    This is not the view of Southerners other than a miniscule but vicious minority.

    Brian Boru

  • Doctor Who

    Kathy C

    As Americans go, I find your posts extremely nauseating…. the SOL flute band can be a fully inclusive band on account that both men and womwn can join it…now naturally if not only non Protestants but non Orange men/women wanted to join them, well Freud probably would have had a name for them.

    Your atempts to distort your own country´s history is disturbing…Most modern Historians don´t look at American war of independence as a revolution, but more of a colonial retreat…Most of the grudges aginst the British where about money and hey don´t forget many who fought where actually first generation settlers.

    Of course some Catholics contributed, how else could they have got French support, but your attempt to turn it into a Catholic revolution is laughable.

    American was built largely by Ulster Presbyterians, who travelled far and wide in your vast country. The Irish Catholics on the other hand came much later and stopped at the first port of call (New York / Boston) and set up their own little anti british communities.

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Doctor Who, I didn’t say the American Revolution was a Catholic Revolution…I just commented that there were Catholics in the Revolution after there were comments Catholics weren’t in it.

    As for Americans not referring to the war of Independence as the American Revolution is incorrect. Even General Motors the car company is trying to get more Americans to buy their cars and are marketing them as the New American Revolution….cashing in on the pride Americans feel about THE American Revolution and trying to have it link up to purchases of their GM cars. Hope you’re feeling better…. ;o)

    posted by Kathy C

  • Doctor Who

    Kathy C

    What in beelzebubs balls has GM motors and their new sales drive got to do with the American War of Independence.

    What I said was that most modern historians would argue that Independence was not a Revolution…but more of a colonial retreat.

    Also not one post states that Catholics didn´t take part..it is you that is making the religion of the participants an issue and it just so happens most of the leaders and founding fathers of America where of Ulster Scots stock.

    Of course what happened next in your country regarding slavery and the extermination of the indigenous peoples there is another story.

    Perhaps you should concentrate on the rights and issues of the under privillaged black populations in inner city projects before making comment on issues in Northern Ireland.

  • not long now

    Despite the setback in convincing the unionists that we’re not all bad- i’m sure a lot of them saw that it was only a small minority of rioters, and that most people respect their right to march. don’t give up hope- we’ll soon trick enough of them into voting for a United Ireland based on the concept of equality and fairness. then we’ll deport the fuckers ;)

  • Cathum

    “America was built largely by Ulster Presbyterians, who travelled far and wide in your vast country. ”

    They may have built America but they didnt half balls up the 6 counties. Perhaps the dregs stayed behind in the auld country.

    The one after Scotland that is.

  • DK

    To Kathy_c

    One of grievances against King George from the revolutionaries was that he had emancipated the Catholics in Quebec:

    “Also the act passed in the same session for establishing the Roman Catholic religion in the province of Quebec, abolishing the equitable system of English laws, and erecting a tyranny there, to the great danger, from so total a dissimilarity of religion, law, and government of the neighboring British colonies, by the assitance of whose blood and treasure the said country was conquered from France”

    One of the revolutionaries first acts was an attempted invasion of Canada, which failed as the local Catholics, unsurprisingly, remained loyal to Britain. An 1812 invasion failed too, as the Catholics in Canada were wary of the anti-catholic early US, and the US militia were unreliable.

    So to present the early US history as some sort of joint catholic-protestant cause is a big mistake. Just like deliberately provocative statements about the Sons of Ulster’s possible membership qualifications.

  • J McConnell

    DK

    > So to present the early US history as some sort of joint catholic-protestant cause is a big mistake.

    I could not agree more.

    And that’s why the election of JFK in 1960 was a real break-through. His religion was a big election issue but unlike Al Smith in 1928, he was able to overcome (just) what was a big electoral handicap in a lot of swing states in the South and Mid-West.

    Its only in the last thirty years that the No-Nothing tradition (the politics of No Popery) , which had a very long history in US politics, finally disappeared as an important political factor. Although there are still whiffs of it in the anti-immigrant politics of So. Cal and the border states.

    Kathy_C’s grasp of US history and politics seems to be as shaky as her knowledge of the history and politics of Ireland, North and South. Well intentioned but very muddle headed.

    J McConnell

  • Kathy C

    Posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    In the US we have PBS television which is 348 public television stations and approx 90 million people watch it each week. The PBS programs are used in schools.

    They had a series called, “Liberty, the American Revolution.”

    http://www.pbs.org/ktc/liberty/index.html

    and the series as the title suggest was all about the AMERICAN REVOLUTION….and it provided teachers aids to help teach the AMERICAN REVOLUTION in schools to supplement the series.

    It is being taught as the AMERICAN REVOLUTION…not being taught as colonial retreat.

    Why I mentioned the GM add campaign was to highlight even advertisers are cashing in on the mind set of AMERICAN REVOLUTION. Whether it is the AMERICAN REVOLUTION where we beat the british and won our independence or the AMERICAN REVOLUTION in the industrail age….one of the largest corporations in the world opted to advertise their cars based on AMERICAN REVOLUTION…and contect to people based on their concept of AMERICAN REVOLUTION.

    Also, I never stated the AMERICAN REVOLUTION was
    a joint protestant catholic cause. I stated Catholics fought in the AMERICAN REVOLUTION and Gen. Washington was mindful of not offending the Catholic fighters.

  • J McConnell

    Kathy

    Using the title of a PBS series to back up ones position is, well, a bit weak.

    The usual term used in US history books is either the War of Independence or, in older book, the Revolutionary Wars. Although considering the political questions that were being fought over, and the political rhetoric used, it might be more accurate to call it “The English Civil War – Round II”.

    The political rhetoric of the American Colonies in the 1760′s and 1770′s had more in common with Britain in the 1640′s than France in the 1780′s and 1790′s, which was the first real revolution in the modern sense.

    What happened in the American Colonies was about as revolutionary as the Glorious Revolution of 1688. A shuffling of the ruling class but little beyond that.

    Now the election of Jackson in 1828, that *was* a political revolution. It unleashed political forces that directly lead to the disaster of 1861.

    J McConnell

  • SlugFest

    Kathy C,
    A couple lifetimes ago, before I bought back my soul, I was in the advertising business: tv commercials, media planning, the delicate tweaking and twisting of words … the works. I always wondered if there were any suckers out there who actually believed what they were being sold, and sadly, you have just proven that there are …
    “PBS television … approx 90 million people watch it each week. “
    NOT. Per the actual PBS website, “PBS serves nearly 90 million people each week”. Kathy, in this sense, ‘serves’ simply means that ’90 million people’ have access to pbs … in other words, it’s a channel on their tv remote. What’s more, that ’90 million’ is based on the assumption that each household has 2.5 people (well, that’s the # it used to be … back when I didn’t have a soul and all) in it … in other words, you then need to divide 2.5 into 90 mill. Mind you, pbs is the best damned channel in America that few people actually watch… but that’s another story.
    “They had a series called, “Liberty, the American Revolution … and the series as the title suggest was all about the AMERICAN REVOLUTION….”
    Wrong again. Had you done further research (or watched the dang thing when it first came out years ago, which I did), you would have found out that the series actually deals with the 25 years leading UP TO the ‘revolution.’
    “It is being taught as the AMERICAN REVOLUTION…”
    What’s this??? The American education system may not, after all, be giving a truthful and comprehensive account of the formation of our country???? Hmmm … I wonder if that’s why America’s students are ranked waaayyyy below a myriad of other countries when it comes to such silly things as world history and mathematics.
    “Why I mentioned the GM add campaign was to highlight even advertisers are cashing in on the mind set of AMERICAN REVOLUTION … ….one of the largest corporations in the world opted to advertise their cars based on AMERICAN REVOLUTION”
    And now we’re back to the whoring and pimping of America. Yes, middle America clings desperately to the ‘American Revolution’, as well as the ‘if you don’t like it, leave’ and, oh, yeah, that God blesses our country over any other. Go GM, go! Sell your cars not on quality or gas efficiency, but on the desperate xenophobic hopes of frightened people … people too damn scared to find out what the world really thinks of them when they’re just trying to put food on the table and keep their kids clothed. Go GM, go! And good on you, Kathy, for backing GM up!

  • SlugFest

    Postscript: the 6:05 post atttributed to Doctor Who was actually written by SlugFest.

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Sorry I missed typed the web site….it is:

    http://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/index.html

    or you can go do a web search type in American Revolution and it will come up as “Liberty, The American Revolution.”

    J. McConnell, I don’t feel when 348 tv stations air a show that states the American Revolution was called just that…the American Revolution is a weak point…it demo’s that in the US the American Revolution is being taught as just that…the American Revolution. Now, what makes history and political anylsis great is people can study and come up with their own theories and ideas why certain things happened. Yet, that does not negate the fact….those events are being taught and identified by the phrase….AMERCIAN REVOLUTION. have a great day.

  • Doctor Who

    Cathum

    You could be right there, you could also say the same about the Catholic Irish who didn´t make it to New York / Boston.

  • J McConnell

    Kathy C

    It seems we are talking at cross-purposes here.

    I did a quick dig and discovered that the only place that commonly uses the term ‘American Revolution’ are grade school and high school history books, and t.v programmes targeted at that particular audience. Which is why I have not run into the term very often. I tend to get my history from academic and scholarly books rather than grade school text books.

    I also had a quick look at the PBS site about the TV program. I have vague memories of watching a bit of the first episode on KQED in the late ’90′s but as it was all rather high school fluff I soon lost interest. Not a patch on the American Experience documentary series which is t.v history at its finest.

    J McConnell

  • Kathy C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    J McConnell, I’m glad you looked at the site so you would know what I was referring to…thank you for that. Also, I’m glad that you understand that American children are taught in grade school and high school that it was the AMerican Revolution and since the majority of people do not go on for further historical anylsis of American history in colleges and major in other subjects other than American history…the vast American public think of the war as and in terms of…the American Revolution. Thanks again and have a great weekend.

    posted by Kathy C