Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

Blogging the riots…

Sun 26 February 2006, 1:50am

The eye witness accounts have been stunning from Back Seat Drivers and Dossing Times, along with DT’s great capture of the scene ripped from the City Council’s traffic cameras. Take a bow lads!

Strong shot from Flickr of a Guard apparently about to be hit with a brick – with, bizarrely, a Villa fan in foregrond). More from Celtic Freedom; Chris Logan thinks RSF are a disgrace. Dublin Met Blogs has loads of stuff.

Kevin was on the ground too. Thesme feels sick. Chris is annoyed.

Beano says, so much for a new Ireland. The big man is disgusted. Richard calls it a wake up call for the State.

El Blogador with a round up of reaction. Citizen photos here, here, here, here, here, here and here.

Update: BBC video of the riot. And some very good stuff on Indymedia.

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Comments (93)

  1. alfredo says:

    this is all hysterical crap – go to link below to see a real riot in dublin and play the video – what happened today was a mere skirmish being blown up by over-exitable and stupid media

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/18/newsid_2514000/2514727.stm

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  2. Ultonian Scottis American says:

    “The revolution will be televised.”

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  3. sony-youth says:

    great post alfredo. still, “skimirish” or not, what happened today was still disgraceful and could be important in the long-term.

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  4. Henry94 says:

    13 people were charged tonight in relation to the riots including, according to RTE, four non-nationals. So the question arises can you be a non-national and a nationalist at the same time.

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  5. Brian Boru says:

    Well Henry maybe some of them are just anarchists. I suspect so. Note all the anarchist black flags present.

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  6. j collins says:

    I think goes to prove the Sinn Fein/IRA don’t want a PROD about the place.

    A real own goal – hows Gerry and Martin going to explain this in Washington ?

    Headlines on CNN “IRA supporters disrupt parade, attack police”

    JC

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  7. Brian Boru says:

    SF say they told their supporters not to come out against the parade. Republican SF, a splinter group set up in 86 was involved though. J Collins could you kindly avoid lumping everyone together.

    Brian Boru

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  8. saint says:

    Hey thanks for the compliment. the dossing times duely bows :)

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  9. TAFKABO says:

    This post probably belongs in here more than anywhere else.

    These pictures sickened and shocked me more than anything else I’ve seen today.
    It’s some poor asian guy being dragged out of a Centra supermarket and set upon by the mob.

    The pictures can be found here

    http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~z/today/

    I found the link at indymedia here.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74504

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  10. Mickhall says:

    This is yet another example of how the camera can misinterpret reality, [toppling of Baghdad statue is another] the photos show an empty street with debris all over the place, making it resemble a war zone. What has been overlooked was much of this area was a building site.

    The right to protest is a test of any democracy, I suppose we will now get the normal over-reaction from certain politicians and their pals within the media.

    The guards contained any violence and there were a lot fewer broken heads than when the British army and RUC policed similar minor scuffles up north. This sort of ruff and tumble is unfortunately part of the democratic process and as long as it only happens on rare occasions in all honesty there is little harm in it. Better to have the odd public punch up to let off steam than people taking to the hills or doing their trick or treat routine.

    As good old Corporal Jones used to say, “Don’t panic’. Oh and by the way lets have no more of it was down to Gerry and his peacemakers etc, nor what will the war criminal Bush make of it. Such questions are just not relevant. A bunch of Unionists organized a provocation down in Dublin, and the day turned out as they intended. Thus to say this puts any republicans on the spot is plain daft. The guards protecting Ulster Unionist, as it should be but never the less a sight to behold.

    Still we are moving forward, there was a time not that long ago when Unionists would not venture across the border to that city of Sodom and Gomorra down south. Now they are demanding their democratic right to protest within the ROI and thanking the guards for protecting them. Turned out alright on the night!

    Best regards.

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  11. This is yet another example of how the camera can misinterpret reality, [toppling of Baghdad statue is another] the photos show an empty street with debris all over the place, making it resemble a war zone. What has been overlooked was much of this area was a building site.

    If it’s anything, I walked down O’Connell Street at 8am this morning, observant as ever. The post-riot pictures stilled shocked me.

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  12. Shore Road Resident says:

    That’s the first time I’ve ever been disappointed by a post from Mickhall.

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  13. saint says:

    Still though most of the building site is now out on the street.

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  14. Pat Mc Larnon says:

    Alfredo,

    while recognising what you say, I must state that mickhall, is by a country mile, rhe best and most productive contribtutor to this site.

    Though, he also is a sniping bastard.

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  15. Kathleen (Kathy C) says:

    posted by Kathy C (I say this because my posts are being credited to other people)

    Hi all,

    The pictures were very interesting and thanks for putting them on this site for people to see.

    The british empire put down the Easter rising of 1916 and members of those who promote the british way of life (unionist/orange order members) came to strut their stuff in the very same area of the Irish rising during the year the Irish Republic plan to have it’s army march in the capital to celebrate the Rising.

    I’m sure there were many in the press and Irish politians back in 1916 that felt those who stood up to the british were evil. I feel those who stood up to the british orange way of life…back in 1916 were hero’s. The pictures of the streets look simmilar today as back then. Times move on…but so much stays the same.

    posted by Kathy C no matter what the name is that follows (personally I think it is to keep people from knowing what Kathy C has to say)

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  16. Brian Boru says:

    (Brian Boru post)

    This kind of puts a new perspective on things:

    “Loyalists may carry Dublin bomber pictures

    by Ciarán Barnes

    23/02/2006

    Organisers of a loyalist march through Dublin have said they cannot guarantee that images of a man accused of murdering 26 people in the city will not not be displayed during the demonstration.

    Speaking to Daily Ireland yesterday, Love Ulster organiser Willie Frazer said: “I can’t give a guarantee a photograph of Robert McConnell will not be carried because I wouldn’t be against anyone carrying Robert’s photograph.”

    Robert McConnell was a dual member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Volunteer Force. He murdered scores of Catholics in the 1970s.
    He played a part in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 33 people died. Twenty-six died in the Dublin attack.

    Speaking in 1999, John Weir, a former member of the RUC with whom Robert McConnell went on murder missions, implicated him in a further eight killings.
    The mass murderer was shot dead by the IRA in 1976. Images of him have been carried at previous rallies organised by Mr Frazer’s victims group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives.

    Despite the weight of evidence linking McConnell to at least 41 sectarian murders, Mr Frazer defended the killer’s reputation.
    “Anybody I know who knew Robert would say there is no way he was involved in anything. He was involved with the security forces and he helped the SAS and stuff like that but a lot of people would say that was just part of his job,” said Mr Frazer.
    Relatives of those murdered in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings criticised Mr Frazer. Margaret Irwin of the Justice for the Forgotten group said his defence of McConnell was “very insensitive”.
    She said: “We have very good information that McConnell was involved with the gang who we are convinced carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
    “We believe McConnell was involved in up to 55 murders. There can be no doubt he was heavily involved with loyalist paramilitaries.”
    Up to 1,000 loyalists and six bands are expected to take part in Saturday’s Love Ulster parade along O’Connell Street. The march is to start at 12.30pm and is expected to last one hour.
    Orange Order members will take part but will not wear sashes or collarettes.
    Yesterday morning, Republican Sinn Féin held a press conference in Dublin at which the party unveiled plans to protest against the march. The Continuity IRA has also vowed to disrupt the parade.
    Love Ulster held a victims rally in Belfast last October. The event was widely criticised because it failed to give any mention to those who had suffered at the hands of loyalists and the state.
    Loyalists paramilitaries such as Ulster Defence Association leader Jackie McDonald helped launch the Love Ulster campaign last September. “

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  17. Brian Boru says:

    (Brian Boru)

    This story appeared in the Daily Ireland. I would like to know if Unionists on this forum condemn the remarks by Willie Frazer, and in particular the refusal to agree not to carry a photo of this vile man.

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  18. Gopaddy says:

    Great post Brian Boru.

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  19. Jo says:

    Unionists do not generally agree with you BB, I do, though.

    Willie Frazer dos not speak for me any more than the rioting morons speak for Nationalism or SF.

    Its a pity some other victims such as Ailen Quinton, do not similarly distance themsleves from Frazer. I note that Alan McBride, for instance, is not associated with LU.

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  20. Jo says:

    TAF: Those pics were shocking, faces clearly identifiable of the racist bastards kicking that poor man. I hope the Gardai throw the book at the racist feckers. A tricolour in the middle of that, too. Utterly shameful. Perhaps a few live rounds a la Bloody Sunday might have been appropriate after all.

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  21. Harry Flashman says:

    Well then Brian Boru by your same reasoning you wouldn’t allow Irish Republican marches through London or Birmingham or Manchester or indeed through Belfast city centre for that matter either.

    Is that what you believe?

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  22. Harry Flashman says:

    That above post was from me.

    C’mon Slug sort this out will ya!

    – HARRY FLASHMAN -

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  23. Comrade Stalin says:

    (Comrade Stalin post)

    Brian Boru, I’m not a unionist but I completely condemn the remarks of Frazer concerning this paramilitary-linked individual.

    However I also condemn your rather shallow and pathetic attempts to justify the rioting yesterday. I also find the line you’re taking to be pretty hypocritical. IRA murderers are commemorated all the time by republicans during marches and demonstrations. The Sinn Fein website sells tacky pins and badges of people who drove a war during which civilians were murdered in this country.

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  24. unionist says:

    love ulster is about those who have been murdered at the hands of catholics

    i know there are many on this board who refuse to acknowledge this fact but catholics waged a war to cleanse NI of all things british including british citizens. They were supported by the southern government who provided arms and a safe haven for the murderous scum

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  25. Brian Boru says:

    Unionist the Southern govt never armed the IRA. There was an Arms Trial in the 70′s into allegations that some ministers (Haughey, Blaney and Boland) had tried to arm the IRA in NI. There is no serious suggestion that such attempts succeeded. On the safe-haven point, we have a written constitution and the power over issues like extradition is clearly in the ambit of the courts rather than the executive, unless there is an extradition treaty. Polls in the South always showed the vast majority against the IRA in the North,, whatever spin you want to put on it.

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  26. Brian Boru says:

    “However I also condemn your rather shallow and pathetic attempts to justify the rioting yesterday. I also find the line you’re taking to be pretty hypocritical. IRA murderers are commemorated all the time by republicans during marches and demonstrations. The Sinn Fein website sells tacky pins and badges of people who drove a war during which civilians were murdered in this country.”

    I am not justifying the rioting at all. I condemn it but I am simply saying that there is fault on both sides here. LU is more than just a victims group. Read the FAIR website on its demonisation of the Catholic church. LU invited Loyalist paramilitaries to take part in their Belfast march.

    Someone talked about terrorist photos on Republican marches. Naturally I condemn the inclusion in marches of anyone who murdered innocent civilians, which obviously includes the PIRA, RIRA, OIRA, CIRA and INLA. Of course, if you are including the 1916 rebels and those who fought in the War of Independence I would not consider them to be terrorists as they generally did not target civilians.

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  27. Keith M says:

    BB “the Southern govt never armed the IRA.” This is unproven and disputed. The arms trial collapsed because it could not be proven that those charged were not working under government sanction.

    I have always maintained that this issue should be top of the list for public inquiries, ahead of issues like the Cavan/Monaghan bombing. If the Lynch government managed to get arms to the IRA 9or indeed even tried to arm the IRA) it puts a very different contex on what happened later.

    If it was rouge elements within FF (the Blaney and Boland factions) this also need to be known.

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  28. unionist says:

    brian bru,

    how many extraditions have there been from the south to the UK?

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  29. Jo says:

    Come on guys, try and keep on-topic :)

    I for one dont doubt that Dublin and RoI opinion on Unionism wasnt represented by the rioters yesterday.

    Neither Willie Frazer, nor Jeffrey represented any Unionist like me either.

    I think public opinion in Dublin will build to insist that the government, whatever past FF may or may not have done, provide an audience or an invite for a future demo (at which the nature of Loyalism as something civil or something nasty may or may not appear.)

    I would much have preferred the negative aspects of LU attitudes to have caught the headlines yesterday. For example, they were planning to carry placards of a man they claim to be a victim, but who in fact murdered anything between 40 and 50 people. They didnt get the chance to show themselves up.

    Now I see some posters claiming that the *few* who demonstrated were in fact ecapsulating the spirit of the *few* involved in 1916. Such attitudes are evidence of criminal insanity.

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  30. Neither Willie Frazer, nor Jeffrey represented any Unionist like me either.

    Then you feel no grievance???

    Hmmmm where have you been the in the last year?

    I personally have no respect for wee Jeff and also find Frazers politics irritable but I still repect them for campaigning on behalf of Unionist/Protestant victims!

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  31. Brian Boru says:

    Unionist, I don’t know. But it’s a decision for the courts. Unlike the UK, we have a written constitution so the government can’t just do what it likes. So it’s not as simple as saying “oh the govt should extradite them”.

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  32. Lhiannan Shee says:

    Just when you thought it was safe to march down O’Connell Street…….

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  33. Brian Boru says:

    Fermanagh, would you categorise Robert McConnell as a “victim”?

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  34. Jo says:

    FU:

    I feel no grievance, I am not bitter, I am not bigotted, therefore I have no time for LU nor they for me.

    Neither it would appear do those who have every right to feel grievance, such as Alan McBride. Why do you think Frazer was refused a personal protection weapon?

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  35. unionist says:

    strange how no nationalists on this board feel any empathy at all to those who wanted to march in Dublin, whose loved ones were murdered by catholics over the last 30-40 years

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  36. Brian Boru says:

    We do feel empathy with IRA victims, but the mixing it with support for paramilitarism on the part of some of the supporters of the march is a different matter. The categorisation of Loyalist terrorists as “victims” is offensive to innocent people who never killed anyone but ended up killed anyway.

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  37. Fermanagh, would you categorise Robert McConnell as a “victim”?

    No.

    I have read a lot about this apparent poster… any proof, pictures etc.? Just as stupid wee jeff is he isnt that slow….

    Now staying on the topic of victims campaigners…. what about Raymond McCartney?? Murderer of 2 innocent men including a RUC man…. yet he is very much so involved in campaigning on behalf of the Bloody Sunday victims! Whats your opinion of him?

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  38. I feel no grievance, I am not bitter, I am not bigotted, therefore I have no time for LU nor they for me.

    Neither it would appear do those who have every right to feel grievance, such as Alan McBride. Why do you think Frazer was refused a personal protection weapon?

    !!!

    I have to ask you….. are you even a Unionist?

    Can you not see what is happening all around you!

    Can you honestly say you had no reservations about the OTR bill…. it may be gone now, but it will be back.

    Bigoted…. so if your a victim of Republican violence your bigoted?? If you ask me, you are a disgrace.

    Why he was refused a personal protection firearm.. I have no idea, but no doubt he has acquired other means of protection.

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  39. Jo says:

    “Can you not see what is happening all around you! ”

    Yes, I can. I can see bitterness without reason, exploited by political leaders without a strategy or a genuine concern for my country or the coming generation. The past is done. The path being pursued by LU and the DUP will only create more victims. And thats where they would feel most comfortable -with war. But Paisley is 80 this year. Some are more comfortable with revenge, and the bitterness that consumes Frazer et al.

    Not me, not my daughter, not the next generation, whether it stays here or moves away.

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  40. Jo says:

    Frazer was refused a PPW due to his very close assocation with paramiltaries, not my words, but a judge. he preys on the malignant aspect of victimhood, that seeks to offer revenge in terms of wrecking and preventing change. He is not doing the work of Christ.

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  41. If you must know LU has cross party support, the Deputy Leader of the Official Unionists was also in attendance yesterday along side with wee jeff… This is a matter that Unionism can unite on

    path being pursued by LU and the DUP will only create more victims

    Have you a problem with victims?? Have you a problem with Unionists expressing their anger in peaceful methods??

    BTW just out off interest, I presume you either dont vote or go alliance?

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  42. Realist says:

    Brian Boru,

    According to some RSF supportrs on the ground, many Provo supporters were amongst the ranks of thugs yesterday.

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  43. Jo says:

    Unionism achievd the politicisation of SF and the destruction of the IRA arsenal. Trimble achieved something no Unionist leader since Craig could have imagined. (and even he talked with Collins)

    Then….Paisley gets the votes and refuses to accept what he didnt actually achieve.

    If being a Unionist means that I have to deny a role in government to democratically elected politicians and that no nationalist or Republcian is fit for government, then no, Im not a Unionist.

    But the Union is no longer under threat from anyone Green, but Hain-Orange. None so blind as cant see that.

    Who I vote for is actually none of your business but there was a quick flash of me on today’s Politics Show.

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  44. Realist says:

    “I would like to know if Unionists on this forum condemn the remarks by Willie Frazer, and in particular the refusal to agree not to carry a photo of this vile man.”

    Brian Boru,

    Do you PSF/PIRA be calling for their supporters not to carry photographs of the Hunger Strikers during the big commenorations this year?

    Some of those “victims”, were equally as “vile” asb anyone whose picture MAY (a Daily Lieland rumour?) have been on display yesterday.

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  45. If being a Unionist means that I have to deny a role in government to democratically elected politicians and that no nationalist or Republcian is fit for government, then no, Im not a Unionist.

    If you actually read comments properly you would actually see your above comment has no relevance to this thread, we are talking about victims and the rights of their campaigners.

    If you must know I only asked about your voting preference purely down to the fact that I hope you have no connection to main stream Unionist parties for your views on victims are shameful.

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  46. Brian Boru says:

    “According to some RSF supportrs on the ground, many Provo supporters were amongst the ranks of thugs yesterday.”

    They are opposed to the peace-process and would say that to stir up trouble.

    “Do you PSF/PIRA be calling for their supporters not to carry photographs of the Hunger Strikers during the big commenorations this year?”

    Those of them who were killers of civilians should not be eulogised I accept that. Bobby Sands was jailed for being in a car with a gun, not for actually killing someone.

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  47. Jo says:

    I think its rather strange that when I respond to a question, that I am criticised for going off-topic? I dont think I’ll respond to you any more. As for *shameful*, perhaps you could explain how marching with Orange bands and UDA men in Dublin was showing respect to genuinely innocent victims?

    I think this planned march was shamefully exploitative in exactly the way Frazers use of victimhood was outlined in my post above.

    Had it gone ahead perhaps Danny K could have relived gerry Fitts experience in Oct 68? He could have got a clean shirt in Dunnes, €6? :)

    At least buying a new shirt would have meant the visit was worthwhile.

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  48. unionist says:

    bobby sands was an IRA terrorist whose death should be celebrated by all unionists, one less murderous sucm to worry about.

    if only all of them starved slowly to death then NI would be a better place

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  49. Realist says:

    “good post Brian”

    Gopaddy,

    Do you still subscribe to your viewpoint, expressed only this morning, that:

    “You shower have dictated the rules for long enough. If you don’t like it in the country which you’re occupying then fuck off to the mainland, I wonder if they will welcome yer drums and flutes there. I doubt it. Ye are a race without a country. Give up.”

    You don’t want a United Ireland, do you?

    Brian Boru,

    “Those of them who were killers of civilians should not be eulogised I accept that. Bobby Sands was jailed for being in a car with a gun, not for actually killing someone.”

    No…wait a wee minute.

    Bobby was a member of a movement which blew hundreds of innocent (Irish) civilians to pieces, tortured hundreds of innocent (Irish) civilians and disappeared innocent (Irish) mothers….and that’s just for starters.

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  50. Realist says:

    Kathy C,

    “The british empire put down the Easter rising of 1916 and members of those who promote the british way of life (unionist/orange order members) came to strut their stuff in the very same area of the Irish rising during the year the Irish Republic plan to have it’s army march in the capital to celebrate the Rising.

    I’m sure there were many in the press and Irish politians back in 1916 that felt those who stood up to the british were evil. I feel those who stood up to the british orange way of life…back in 1916 were hero’s”

    You don’t really want a United Ireland, do you?

    I doubt you cherish all the chioldren of the nation equally either.

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  51. Brian,

    Now now please don’t avoid my question…

    Jo,

    I think its rather strange that when I respond to a question, that I am criticised for going off-topic? I dont think I’ll respond to you any more. As for *shameful*, perhaps you could explain how marching with Orange bands and UDA men in Dublin was showing respect to genuinely innocent victims?

    Point is you weren’t responding, you were avoiding the point by making a completely irrelevant statement.

    Orange bands, maybe because orange victims…

    UDA, probably could have counted them on one hand, different from a republican parade…

    And as for you not responding anymore… glad to hear it!! For if i had heard much more from you I would have begun seriously considering the mentality of so called unionists like yourself! Oh and btw I read the sort of stuff you put on ATW…!

    Brian: Don’t forget!

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  52. Jo says:

    Once again moderator called for I think.

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  53. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    FYU:

    Remember to keep your eye on the ball.

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  54. Lurch says:

    I came upon this page from a link on an American news aggregation site. Needless to say, none of this appeared in the US press, other than (perhaps) in Boston. Quite suprising. Americans, even those of Irish parentage, have very mixed feelings about the IRA and Sinn Fein, but generally roundly condemn orange AND green atrocities.

    Yes, I agree. Quite ironic, considering the shame of my country.

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  55. GoPaddy says:

    Alfredo they are very strong words coming from someone who really doesnt know what he/she is talking about.

    Catholics did not wage a war, that was republicans and it was all down to the lack of Civil Rights for Catholics – dont tell me you are someone who agrees that Bloody Sunday was an act against the IRA?

    Read up on your history facts and not what DUP have been forcing down the throats of protestant people over the past 30 years.

    Before posting stupid comments like you do please add your source of information to backup your lame comments.

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  56. unionist says:

    Catholics did not wage a war, that was republicans -
    how many protestants are in the IRA or INLA , so it was a catholic war

    it was all down to the lack of Civil Rights for Catholics -
    working class protestants had the same rights as working calss catholics, middle class catholics had more rights than working class protestants, please read your shistory not what SF has taught you

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  57. FYU:

    Remember to keep your eye on the ball.

    Apologies Mick, its just I find so-called unionists claiming Protestant victims dont have rights to be some what repulsive

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  58. GoPaddy says:

    Unionist….

    When you say “working class catholics, middle class catholics”

    What era do you refer too? Not the 50,60′s and 70′s I hope? Middle Class Catholics in the North? Aye all 15 of them!

    By the way I am not a SF supporter so before passing comment on whom I listen too please make sure you know what your talking about.

    Maybe its time you should change your source of information from DUP bull* to facts:

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/index.html

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  59. unionist says:

    paddy, evenone had the same rights unde the law, just as today what right or law exists to a protestant that does not to a catholic

    the only discrepancy was under the old voting regulations which were based on property and not the person and which discriminated against working class protestants as much as catholics

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  60. unionist says:

    Paddy
    Why did catholics kill ordinary protestants ? Just to get a house…nice people

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  61. GoPaddy says:

    Well isnt it a pity that those “laws” were not followed through-out the years?

    If you are talking about gerrymandering then what your basically saying is that it was wrong and also it was the fault of Unionists?

    Please show us all statistics proving your findings that working class protestants were discriminated as much as catholics – from I could on-line source I must add.

    Dont get me wrong, I know Protestants were discriminated against by their own leaders and the British Gov but to say as much as Catholics is truly blowing it out of proportion.

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  62. GoPaddy says:

    Ding Ding we have a winner for the **Blame Game**

    Here, sure I can add why was 2000 Catholics burnt out of their homes in Belfast?

    What about May 17, 1974 in Dublin and Monaghan Bombings against 33 civilians?

    What about “Miami Showband massacre” of 31st of July 1975?

    If you want to play the blame go right ahead but to be honest Unionism needs to take its head out of the sand and face up to their responsibilities, if not for the Love of Ulster then at least for the ordinary protestant people.

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  63. Realist says:

    “If you want to play the blame go right ahead but to be honest Unionism needs to take its head out of the sand and face up to their responsibilities, if not for the Love of Ulster then at least for the ordinary protestant people.”

    Gopaddy,

    According to you, they shouldn’t be here in the first place and should all go home to the fatherland.

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  64. Brian Boru says:

    “paddy, evenone had the same rights unde the law, just as today what right or law exists to a protestant that does not to a catholic

    the only discrepancy was under the old voting regulations which were based on property and not the person and which discriminated against working class protestants as much as catholics”

    Nonsense. Unionist controlled local authorities discriminated against Catholics in local-housing, thereby helping ensure that proportionately fewer Catholics owned property than Protestants. Also, the greater wealth of the Unionist community meant that fewer proportionately of them were “working class”.

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  65. GoPaddy says:

    True they shouldnt be there in the first place, it was an invasion from the start.

    I couldnt care if my next door neighbour was protestant but if one decides they want to bang their lambeg drum in my front garden with 20,000 Catholic haters then its a different story.

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  66. Brian,

    Im still waiting for your answer on another thread…

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  67. Brian Boru says:

    Realist, regarding you remark to GoPaddy:

    “According to you, they shouldn’t be here in the first place and should all go home to the fatherland. ”

    We Southerners have no problem with Protestants living anywhere on this island. Of course we are conscious of the suffering of our ancestors – it is an inescapable part of our history. However, we don’t believe in holding grudges for the sake of it. The vast majority of us are not anti-Protestant. We are constitutional nationalists and are outraged at the defiling of our flags by those who debase the name of republicanism in our capital city.

    Was reading today that busloads of Northern Republicans were bussed down from Newry and Belfast to stir up trouble. See many were not even Southerners.

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  68. apologies Brian, this is the thread with the question…

    Now staying on the topic of victims campaigners…. what about Raymond McCartney?? Murderer of 2 innocent men including a RUC man…. yet he is very much so involved in campaigning on behalf of the Bloody Sunday victims! Whats your opinion of him?

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  69. Brian Boru says:

    However I will concede on one point of criticism that could be made. The authorities demonstrated a laughable level of stupidity in planning for security at the parade. The govt probably observed that everything was peaceful at the annual Rossnowlagh marches and therefore surmised that extremists would not attack this march. Consequently, building sites were not adequately secured and the resource-strapped Gardai were not deployed in sufficient numbers.

    The theme of Gardai being deployed to desk-clerkery instead of being deployed in a visible manner is not exactly unfamiliar down here. The Garda traffic-corps being an obvious example. There is hardly any Gardai to be seen on our roads. I recall a few years ago driving from Wexford to Cork and back again and coming across no Garda checkpoints. If the Southern govt is guilty of anything, it isn’t malevolence. Stupidity and complacency in planning the security arrangements would be a fairer charge.

    By failing in this, they have allowed a tiny rump of extremists to run riot and blacken the honorable name of constitutional republicanism and of this great country. Shame on them.

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  70. Brian Boru says:

    Fermanagh Young Unionist, while welcoming his conversion to the cause of human rights and peaceful activity, I would still say that eulogising him in a Loyalist march would be unduly offensive to his victims. I would say the same about Republicans in that position.

    I think that in the context of the Northern peace process, people are entitled to a second chance of course, as the GFA envisages through its provisions for releases of paramilitary prisoners. McCartney’s campaigning on behalf of the Bloody Sunday victims would be something I regard as steps towards giving something back to a community he took something irreplacable from. Satisfied with my answer yet?

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  71. ch in texas says:

    Lurch, Actually, this did get play here in the States. It was on both CNN and Fox,and a half page was devoted to it in my Sunday paper. From what is being said here, IRA thugs were bussed in from the north to disrupt a legal march, and this does not reflect on Dublin or the RoI. None of the political ins and outs were discussed, however.

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  72. Brian Boru says:

    Well any report which fails to mention the links of some in LU with Loyalist paramilitaries is an incomplete and thereby misleading report, ch.

    Brian Boru

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  73. ch in texas says:

    Brian Boru, I went back to the newspaper, where the story was from Associated Press. It started,
    “Several hundred IRA supporters attacked police in Dublin on Saturday to protest an unprecedented parade through the capital by Protestants from Northern Ireland.”

    It mentions “Protestants,” “protestant hard-liners,” and “Unionists.”

    So yes, the story was quite one-sided. Oh, and the quote that rioters had come from Catholic areas of NI, it was from Jeffrey Donaldson!

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  74. Realist says:

    GoPaddy,

    You are toning things down a little from your exprssed sentiment of only yesterday.

    Let me remind you of the sentiments that you confessed you “couldn’t have said better” yourself:

    “And what makes you think that your biggoted views should be respected?

    You shower have dictated the rules for long enough. If you don’t like it in the country which you’re occupying then fuck off to the mainland, I wonder if they will welcome yer drums and flutes there. I doubt it. Ye are a race without a country. Give up.”

    With all due respect, my “shower” have just as much right to be here as you and will be going absolutely nowhere.

    Because my “shower” (a very broad church) oppose the myopic worldview of Irish Republicanism, that does not make our views all bigoted.

    Tell readers clearly what future you have in store for unionists on this island…they ain’t going away you know.

    Tell us of your “Ireland Of Equals”.

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  75. Kathy C says:

    Posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Realist, you stated that you think I don’t cherish all children equally or that I don’t want an United Ireland….you couldn’t be further from the truth.

    Because I do cherish ALL children equally…I want to see the hate organization of the orange order and all it represents defeated as it is….a hate oragnization. Just as I want to see other hate organziations defeated such as the kkk and the neo-nazi’s….These organizations preach as does the orange order that they are superior to others…and that is a wrong message to send to children of all races and relgions and societies….

    As for the idea that to pursue a united Ireland agenda one must sit back silently and let the orange order march in Dublin to show that the Irish are tolerant…is rather naive. A hate oragnaization should not be tolerated any place. The Neo nazi’s marched this weekend in Orlando and people counter-demonstrated against them ….the people of Orlando stood up to hate…and it’s too bad that so many Irish feel they are still second class citizens and can’t stand up to the hate of the orange order but must be good little paddy’s and let them march.

    posted by Kathy C no matter what name comes up ….

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  76. Posted By: ID Lottery says:

    Ultonian Scottis American

    You have already been requested not to bring arguments from other sites onto Slugger.

    See Commenting Policy for future reference
    You have already been requested not to bring arguments from other sites onto Slugger.

    See Commenting Policy for future reference

    Moderator.

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  77. Brian Boru says:

    This does not happen at Rossnowlagh. This was a freak event. In future, hopefully the Gardai will be better prepared.

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  78. Brian Boru says:

    A TV3 news poll says 84% feel the Gardai should have baton-charged the rioters. See the rioters do not represent us. :)

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  79. TAFKABO says:

    I have to laugh at people when they argue that allowing the protestors access to a building site full of handy riot equipment was a bad idea.

    Why do they stop there?

    Hasn’t it occured that the Irish medias coverage in the run up to the event was basically fuelling sectarian tensions?

    And not just the official media, even here on Slugger we see it.
    Orangemen are a hate group, that’s it, no compromise.
    And when you can’t think of something to say about other unionsts, simply link them to the Orange hate group, and hey presto, it’s OK to hate them.
    This march was touted as a loyalist march from the outset, there was practically a riot in the rush to airbrush the victims out of the picture and replace them with rumours of Loyalist bombers of Dublin being eulogised on the march.
    Sinn Feins line from the beginning is that the march was provocation, because after all, the very existance of Unionists is provocation to Irish republicanism.

    The official line from moderate Ireland was that they weren’t going to be provoked by these nasty Orangemen.

    When you take all these factors together, is it any wonder that the underclass got so het up and came out to kick a few heads?
    Where in the name of christ do you think they got the idea that they were being “invaded” in the first place?

    From all those people now shedding crocodile tears and condemning the march, that’s where.

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  80. Realist says:

    Kathy C,

    Will you be lobbying for the Orange bit to be removed from the Republic Of Ireland’s flag, in view of your revelations that it represents a culture akin to the KKK and Neo Nazism?

    Much of the republican movement mirrors nazism, but that’s another story.

    As Tom Kelly quite rightly said in his Irish News column today:

    “…if we cannot cherish all the children of the nation equally as stated in the proclamation, then we need to take a second look at the symbolism of our national flag – for there is no Ireland if green cannot reconcile with orange. The aspiration of a united Ireland will remain just that unless Orange demonstrations are as welcome in Dublin as they are in Ballymena”

    Tom is a smart man.

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  81. ID Lottery says:

    Ultonian Scottis American said…

    Moderator:

    Re the 2d post of mine that you deleted:
    Fair enough. Posters cannot cite another blog’s comments. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Although this apparently doesn’t apply to a Slugger original topic itself.

    BTW, none of this is spelled out in the Slugger Commenting Policy.

    ——————–

    Re the 1st post of mine that you deleted:
    I asked re a post actually made on this topic by another poster. It seemed to be “playing the man”, and to be Off Topic.

    It is still there.

    Double standard?

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  82. Kathy C says:

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Realist, personally I wish the Irish flag was white with a green shamrock….but that is just me ;o)

    Ballymena is largely a protestant town and has been a town with much anti-Catholic behavior from disrupting daily Mass, taunting Catholics, arson attacks against Catholic Schools and homes,….it is logically that the orange order is welcomed in Ballymena…just as the kkk were welcomed in white dominated clan towns in the south….
    I oppose the orange order and state it is a hate group because membership in the orange order is based upon “opposing the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid contenancing any act of ceremony of Popish worship.”

    If the orange order had in it’s requirements for entry the line saying membership was based upon, “opposing the fatal errors and doctrines of the Muslim Church and scrupulously avoid contenance any act of ceremony of Mohammed worship.”….can you just hear the out cry that the orange order are bigots ….

    posted by Kathy C

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  83. Kathy C says:

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    I just posted and saw that a word was #####…
    just to be clear the word I used wasn’t bad …

    the word I used was big ot and to show all the #### and censure the word…implies I stated something else, which I did not do.

    posted by Kathy C

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  84. Realist says:

    Kathy C,

    I am glad you are honest about the flag of the Republic Of Ireland.

    Selective qouting from the Orange Rules there…you missed the bit about being nice to Roman Catholics, but never mind.

    Should the hate group Ancient Order Of Hiberians (big in your part of the world) be banned from parading also?

    Republican neo nazi parades in Glasgow, London and other mainland UK towns…should they go to?…Afterall, they are attended by paramilitaries, their apologists and a variety of thugs in republican flute bands dressed in paramilitary style uniforms.

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  85. Kathy C says:

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Realist, glad that we are having a good conversation to understand how we each feel about things.

    I see the orange order and the requirements for joining…is to (for lack of better word) defeat the Catholic Church. and organge order members take an oath against the Catholic Church and the errors they see of the Catholic faith…..

    I see the Ancient Order of Hibernians…as a group to promote their culture…there is no requirements for membership a duty to destroy the protestant churches…or the errors of the protestant faith.

    As for fascism…a fascist is one who exaults his race above all others and wants a dictator…I don’t see republicans exaulting their race as better than someone elses or want to follow laws that make it illigal to marry someone due to their religion or wanting a dictator to rule them.

    Because the Irish flag has green white and orange…and what the colors represents…it really is a flag seperating people into religious groupings…Catholic….Protestant…and I would rather see the shamrock as the symbol of Ireland…rather than religious colors….it has nothing to do with getting the protestants out of the flag…but getting all religious grouping out of the flag.

    I hope you understand me a bit better now.

    Posted by Kathy C

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  86. GoPaddy says:

    Realist,

    I have no time for unionists in this country who feel a need to force hatred onto others which they have been doing before and after the partition of Ireland and unfortunately the minority of the “law abiding” Unionists are dragged along with their bigoted brothers

    You think we should accept “A protestant State for Protestant People” or Loyalist/Unionist protests against our children going to school?

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  87. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    IDL1:

    What impressed me about the blog accounts of Saturday was their attention to precise detail of the events as they saw it.

    The one exception to that was concrete reference to the character and demenour of the marchers. Largely because they weren’t permitted to march.

    But what relevance is there in a reference to a speech make by James Craig in the 1932 in response (it is said) to an earlier speech by de Valera. Craig’s words were:

    They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State” As NI Prime Minister, at Stormont.

    The reference to Holy Cross also begs some kind of explicit statement of relevance to this particular march. If you can find a way of pulling these references specifically into the context of Saturday’s march well and good.

    But as it stands it reads like a illreferenced sectarian rant.

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  88. Brian Boru says:

    At least we don’t have a state church, unlike the UK.

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  89. eyesopen says:

    The love ulster campaign was launched with the help of uda godfather, Jackie McDonald, it’s leader Willie Frazer was refused a personal issue weapon because the btitish security forces belive he has connections to people within loyalist paramilitarism, f.a.i.r call the UDR/UVF members of the Gleanne Gang,who killed dozens of people on the streets of Dublin, victims.Loyalist paramilitary bands were part of the shankill road love ulster parade and on saturday, the bands played sectarian tunes before getting back on their buses.

    The orange order are quite happy to have loyalist paramilitaries as members, shankill butcher eddie McIlwaine to name but one. The Shankill Road Protestant Boys band and The Shankill Star flute band are regulars at orange parades, they carry banners glorifying uvf terrorists like sectarian killer, Brian Robinson.

    The old boyne island defenders orange lodge in Belfast commemorate uvf killers every july,including mass murderer, Bobby ‘basher’ Bates.

    Dawson Baillie, when questioned about orangemen(in full regalia) taking part in a uvf memorial on the Shankill Road said

    “The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,’’

    Deputy Grand Master of Belfast, McMordie said in july last year

    “They are on our side (uvf/uda) and continue to defend the orange order”

    Senior Belfast orangeman Billy Mawhinney said last summer that the uvf & uda were an integral part of the unionist commuinity and are the protectors of the protestant people

    Do these people have the right to march through Dublin ?

    Should the uvf or uda be allowed to march through Dublin ?

    I don’t think so.

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  90. 2050 says:

    It was obvious the riot was going to happen. What were the southern authority’s thinking buy not applying restrictions on the parade such as no flags, bands, lambegs playing sash. It would have been acceptable to everyone if they had of applied a condition that it must be a cross political and religious parade were ALL victim’s of those murdered during the troubles north and south were represented.

    RIOTERS

    Was it 300 rioters or 300 brain cells!. Can only assume they were nobody’s with nothing to lose getting a buzz from the excuse to use violence. It would have been far more effective to counter with a peaceful silent rally of their own for ALL the victims. It might have got more media attention.

    LOVEULSTER

    Heaven knows what they are trying to achieve?

    Also disgraceful that they are using the name of dead Protestants to make cheap political points. How low can they go?
    The actual victims must be turning in there graves. Don’t the members of loveulster have any respect for the dead, they should realise everyone in the graveyard votes the same?

    I was also wondering how parading , flag waving, lambeg beating etc advance’s or remotely represents victims and what actual help are they giving victims on the ground. What are they doing to build peace and create a situation were we never never never have Victims.

    Good to see the DUP openly involved with the sectarian orange order/ ex-loyalist paramilitaries who murdered lots of innocent people of both religions. Hypocrisy extreme

    The vast majority of ordinary decent unionists should remember this when they cast there next vote and send the DUP packing. Where is the leadership, and progress, what have they done for peace and prosperity?

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  91. gerryandthepersuaders says:

    Good gosh! Whatever did those sinn feiners do to Sackville Street?

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  92. Reader says:

    Brian Boru (??): At least we don’t have a state church, unlike the UK.
    There is no state church in the UK. There is an established church (CofE) in England, and a different established church (Presbyterian) in Scotland. There is no established church in either Northern Ireland or Wales.

    Reader

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  93. Grow up says:

    There is a very good reason why the Irish flag is GREEN, WHITE and ORANGE. We have to live together or die together. Either way we will always be together.

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