Blogging the riots…
The eye witness accounts have been stunning from Back Seat Drivers and Dossing Times, along with DT’s great capture of the scene ripped from the City Council’s traffic cameras. Take a bow lads! Strong shot from Flickr of a Guard apparently about to be hit with a brick – with, bizarrely, a Villa fan in foregrond). More from Celtic Freedom; Chris Logan thinks RSF are a disgrace. Dublin Met Blogs has loads of stuff. Kevin was on the ground too. Thesme feels sick. Chris is annoyed. Beano says, so much for a new Ireland. The big man is disgusted. Richard calls it a wake up call for the State. El Blogador with a round up of reaction. Citizen photos here, here, here, here, here, here and here.
Update: BBC video of the riot. And some very good stuff on Indymedia.
Brian,
Now now please don’t avoid my question…
Jo,
I think its rather strange that when I respond to a question, that I am criticised for going off-topic? I dont think I’ll respond to you any more. As for *shameful*, perhaps you could explain how marching with Orange bands and UDA men in Dublin was showing respect to genuinely innocent victims?
Point is you weren’t responding, you were avoiding the point by making a completely irrelevant statement.
Orange bands, maybe because orange victims…
UDA, probably could have counted them on one hand, different from a republican parade…
And as for you not responding anymore… glad to hear it!! For if i had heard much more from you I would have begun seriously considering the mentality of so called unionists like yourself! Oh and btw I read the sort of stuff you put on ATW…!
Brian: Don’t forget!
Once again moderator called for I think.
FYU:
Remember to keep your eye on the ball.
I came upon this page from a link on an American news aggregation site. Needless to say, none of this appeared in the US press, other than (perhaps) in Boston. Quite suprising. Americans, even those of Irish parentage, have very mixed feelings about the IRA and Sinn Fein, but generally roundly condemn orange AND green atrocities.
Yes, I agree. Quite ironic, considering the shame of my country.
Alfredo they are very strong words coming from someone who really doesnt know what he/she is talking about.
Catholics did not wage a war, that was republicans and it was all down to the lack of Civil Rights for Catholics – dont tell me you are someone who agrees that Bloody Sunday was an act against the IRA?
Read up on your history facts and not what DUP have been forcing down the throats of protestant people over the past 30 years.
Before posting stupid comments like you do please add your source of information to backup your lame comments.
Catholics did not wage a war, that was republicans -
how many protestants are in the IRA or INLA , so it was a catholic war
it was all down to the lack of Civil Rights for Catholics -
working class protestants had the same rights as working calss catholics, middle class catholics had more rights than working class protestants, please read your shistory not what SF has taught you
FYU:
Remember to keep your eye on the ball.
Apologies Mick, its just I find so-called unionists claiming Protestant victims dont have rights to be some what repulsive
Unionist….
When you say “working class catholics, middle class catholics”
What era do you refer too? Not the 50,60′s and 70′s I hope? Middle Class Catholics in the North? Aye all 15 of them!
By the way I am not a SF supporter so before passing comment on whom I listen too please make sure you know what your talking about.
Maybe its time you should change your source of information from DUP bull* to facts:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/index.html
paddy, evenone had the same rights unde the law, just as today what right or law exists to a protestant that does not to a catholic
the only discrepancy was under the old voting regulations which were based on property and not the person and which discriminated against working class protestants as much as catholics
Paddy
Why did catholics kill ordinary protestants ? Just to get a house…nice people
Well isnt it a pity that those “laws” were not followed through-out the years?
If you are talking about gerrymandering then what your basically saying is that it was wrong and also it was the fault of Unionists?
Please show us all statistics proving your findings that working class protestants were discriminated as much as catholics – from I could on-line source I must add.
Dont get me wrong, I know Protestants were discriminated against by their own leaders and the British Gov but to say as much as Catholics is truly blowing it out of proportion.
Ding Ding we have a winner for the **Blame Game**
Here, sure I can add why was 2000 Catholics burnt out of their homes in Belfast?
What about May 17, 1974 in Dublin and Monaghan Bombings against 33 civilians?
What about “Miami Showband massacre” of 31st of July 1975?
If you want to play the blame go right ahead but to be honest Unionism needs to take its head out of the sand and face up to their responsibilities, if not for the Love of Ulster then at least for the ordinary protestant people.
“If you want to play the blame go right ahead but to be honest Unionism needs to take its head out of the sand and face up to their responsibilities, if not for the Love of Ulster then at least for the ordinary protestant people.”
Gopaddy,
According to you, they shouldn’t be here in the first place and should all go home to the fatherland.
“paddy, evenone had the same rights unde the law, just as today what right or law exists to a protestant that does not to a catholic
the only discrepancy was under the old voting regulations which were based on property and not the person and which discriminated against working class protestants as much as catholics”
Nonsense. Unionist controlled local authorities discriminated against Catholics in local-housing, thereby helping ensure that proportionately fewer Catholics owned property than Protestants. Also, the greater wealth of the Unionist community meant that fewer proportionately of them were “working class”.
True they shouldnt be there in the first place, it was an invasion from the start.
I couldnt care if my next door neighbour was protestant but if one decides they want to bang their lambeg drum in my front garden with 20,000 Catholic haters then its a different story.
Brian,
Im still waiting for your answer on another thread…
Realist, regarding you remark to GoPaddy:
“According to you, they shouldn’t be here in the first place and should all go home to the fatherland. ”
We Southerners have no problem with Protestants living anywhere on this island. Of course we are conscious of the suffering of our ancestors – it is an inescapable part of our history. However, we don’t believe in holding grudges for the sake of it. The vast majority of us are not anti-Protestant. We are constitutional nationalists and are outraged at the defiling of our flags by those who debase the name of republicanism in our capital city.
Was reading today that busloads of Northern Republicans were bussed down from Newry and Belfast to stir up trouble. See many were not even Southerners.
apologies Brian, this is the thread with the question…
Now staying on the topic of victims campaigners…. what about Raymond McCartney?? Murderer of 2 innocent men including a RUC man…. yet he is very much so involved in campaigning on behalf of the Bloody Sunday victims! Whats your opinion of him?
However I will concede on one point of criticism that could be made. The authorities demonstrated a laughable level of stupidity in planning for security at the parade. The govt probably observed that everything was peaceful at the annual Rossnowlagh marches and therefore surmised that extremists would not attack this march. Consequently, building sites were not adequately secured and the resource-strapped Gardai were not deployed in sufficient numbers.
The theme of Gardai being deployed to desk-clerkery instead of being deployed in a visible manner is not exactly unfamiliar down here. The Garda traffic-corps being an obvious example. There is hardly any Gardai to be seen on our roads. I recall a few years ago driving from Wexford to Cork and back again and coming across no Garda checkpoints. If the Southern govt is guilty of anything, it isn’t malevolence. Stupidity and complacency in planning the security arrangements would be a fairer charge.
By failing in this, they have allowed a tiny rump of extremists to run riot and blacken the honorable name of constitutional republicanism and of this great country. Shame on them.
Fermanagh Young Unionist, while welcoming his conversion to the cause of human rights and peaceful activity, I would still say that eulogising him in a Loyalist march would be unduly offensive to his victims. I would say the same about Republicans in that position.
I think that in the context of the Northern peace process, people are entitled to a second chance of course, as the GFA envisages through its provisions for releases of paramilitary prisoners. McCartney’s campaigning on behalf of the Bloody Sunday victims would be something I regard as steps towards giving something back to a community he took something irreplacable from. Satisfied with my answer yet?
Lurch, Actually, this did get play here in the States. It was on both CNN and Fox,and a half page was devoted to it in my Sunday paper. From what is being said here, IRA thugs were bussed in from the north to disrupt a legal march, and this does not reflect on Dublin or the RoI. None of the political ins and outs were discussed, however.
Well any report which fails to mention the links of some in LU with Loyalist paramilitaries is an incomplete and thereby misleading report, ch.
Brian Boru
Brian Boru, I went back to the newspaper, where the story was from Associated Press. It started,
“Several hundred IRA supporters attacked police in Dublin on Saturday to protest an unprecedented parade through the capital by Protestants from Northern Ireland.”
It mentions “Protestants,” “protestant hard-liners,” and “Unionists.”
So yes, the story was quite one-sided. Oh, and the quote that rioters had come from Catholic areas of NI, it was from Jeffrey Donaldson!
GoPaddy,
You are toning things down a little from your exprssed sentiment of only yesterday.
Let me remind you of the sentiments that you confessed you “couldn’t have said better” yourself:
“And what makes you think that your biggoted views should be respected?
You shower have dictated the rules for long enough. If you don’t like it in the country which you’re occupying then fuck off to the mainland, I wonder if they will welcome yer drums and flutes there. I doubt it. Ye are a race without a country. Give up.”
With all due respect, my “shower” have just as much right to be here as you and will be going absolutely nowhere.
Because my “shower” (a very broad church) oppose the myopic worldview of Irish Republicanism, that does not make our views all bigoted.
Tell readers clearly what future you have in store for unionists on this island…they ain’t going away you know.
Tell us of your “Ireland Of Equals”.
Posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
Realist, you stated that you think I don’t cherish all children equally or that I don’t want an United Ireland….you couldn’t be further from the truth.
Because I do cherish ALL children equally…I want to see the hate organization of the orange order and all it represents defeated as it is….a hate oragnization. Just as I want to see other hate organziations defeated such as the kkk and the neo-nazi’s….These organizations preach as does the orange order that they are superior to others…and that is a wrong message to send to children of all races and relgions and societies….
As for the idea that to pursue a united Ireland agenda one must sit back silently and let the orange order march in Dublin to show that the Irish are tolerant…is rather naive. A hate oragnaization should not be tolerated any place. The Neo nazi’s marched this weekend in Orlando and people counter-demonstrated against them ….the people of Orlando stood up to hate…and it’s too bad that so many Irish feel they are still second class citizens and can’t stand up to the hate of the orange order but must be good little paddy’s and let them march.
posted by Kathy C no matter what name comes up ….
Ultonian Scottis American
You have already been requested not to bring arguments from other sites onto Slugger.
See Commenting Policy for future reference
You have already been requested not to bring arguments from other sites onto Slugger.
See Commenting Policy for future reference
Moderator.
This does not happen at Rossnowlagh. This was a freak event. In future, hopefully the Gardai will be better prepared.
A TV3 news poll says 84% feel the Gardai should have baton-charged the rioters. See the rioters do not represent us.
I have to laugh at people when they argue that allowing the protestors access to a building site full of handy riot equipment was a bad idea.
Why do they stop there?
Hasn’t it occured that the Irish medias coverage in the run up to the event was basically fuelling sectarian tensions?
And not just the official media, even here on Slugger we see it.
Orangemen are a hate group, that’s it, no compromise.
And when you can’t think of something to say about other unionsts, simply link them to the Orange hate group, and hey presto, it’s OK to hate them.
This march was touted as a loyalist march from the outset, there was practically a riot in the rush to airbrush the victims out of the picture and replace them with rumours of Loyalist bombers of Dublin being eulogised on the march.
Sinn Feins line from the beginning is that the march was provocation, because after all, the very existance of Unionists is provocation to Irish republicanism.
The official line from moderate Ireland was that they weren’t going to be provoked by these nasty Orangemen.
When you take all these factors together, is it any wonder that the underclass got so het up and came out to kick a few heads?
Where in the name of christ do you think they got the idea that they were being “invaded” in the first place?
From all those people now shedding crocodile tears and condemning the march, that’s where.
Kathy C,
Will you be lobbying for the Orange bit to be removed from the Republic Of Ireland’s flag, in view of your revelations that it represents a culture akin to the KKK and Neo Nazism?
Much of the republican movement mirrors nazism, but that’s another story.
As Tom Kelly quite rightly said in his Irish News column today:
“…if we cannot cherish all the children of the nation equally as stated in the proclamation, then we need to take a second look at the symbolism of our national flag – for there is no Ireland if green cannot reconcile with orange. The aspiration of a united Ireland will remain just that unless Orange demonstrations are as welcome in Dublin as they are in Ballymena”
Tom is a smart man.
Ultonian Scottis American said…
Moderator:
Re the 2d post of mine that you deleted:
Fair enough. Posters cannot cite another blog’s comments. What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Although this apparently doesn’t apply to a Slugger original topic itself.
BTW, none of this is spelled out in the Slugger Commenting Policy.
——————–
Re the 1st post of mine that you deleted:
I asked re a post actually made on this topic by another poster. It seemed to be “playing the man”, and to be Off Topic.
It is still there.
Double standard?
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
Realist, personally I wish the Irish flag was white with a green shamrock….but that is just me ;o)
Ballymena is largely a protestant town and has been a town with much anti-Catholic behavior from disrupting daily Mass, taunting Catholics, arson attacks against Catholic Schools and homes,….it is logically that the orange order is welcomed in Ballymena…just as the kkk were welcomed in white dominated clan towns in the south….
I oppose the orange order and state it is a hate group because membership in the orange order is based upon “opposing the fatal errors and doctrines of the Church of Rome, and scrupulously avoid contenancing any act of ceremony of Popish worship.”
If the orange order had in it’s requirements for entry the line saying membership was based upon, “opposing the fatal errors and doctrines of the Muslim Church and scrupulously avoid contenance any act of ceremony of Mohammed worship.”….can you just hear the out cry that the orange order are bigots ….
posted by Kathy C
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
I just posted and saw that a word was #####…
just to be clear the word I used wasn’t bad …
the word I used was big ot and to show all the #### and censure the word…implies I stated something else, which I did not do.
posted by Kathy C
Kathy C,
I am glad you are honest about the flag of the Republic Of Ireland.
Selective qouting from the Orange Rules there…you missed the bit about being nice to Roman Catholics, but never mind.
Should the hate group Ancient Order Of Hiberians (big in your part of the world) be banned from parading also?
Republican neo nazi parades in Glasgow, London and other mainland UK towns…should they go to?…Afterall, they are attended by paramilitaries, their apologists and a variety of thugs in republican flute bands dressed in paramilitary style uniforms.
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
Realist, glad that we are having a good conversation to understand how we each feel about things.
I see the orange order and the requirements for joining…is to (for lack of better word) defeat the Catholic Church. and organge order members take an oath against the Catholic Church and the errors they see of the Catholic faith…..
I see the Ancient Order of Hibernians…as a group to promote their culture…there is no requirements for membership a duty to destroy the protestant churches…or the errors of the protestant faith.
As for fascism…a fascist is one who exaults his race above all others and wants a dictator…I don’t see republicans exaulting their race as better than someone elses or want to follow laws that make it illigal to marry someone due to their religion or wanting a dictator to rule them.
Because the Irish flag has green white and orange…and what the colors represents…it really is a flag seperating people into religious groupings…Catholic….Protestant…and I would rather see the shamrock as the symbol of Ireland…rather than religious colors….it has nothing to do with getting the protestants out of the flag…but getting all religious grouping out of the flag.
I hope you understand me a bit better now.
Posted by Kathy C
Realist,
I have no time for unionists in this country who feel a need to force hatred onto others which they have been doing before and after the partition of Ireland and unfortunately the minority of the “law abiding” Unionists are dragged along with their bigoted brothers
You think we should accept “A protestant State for Protestant People” or Loyalist/Unionist protests against our children going to school?
IDL1:
What impressed me about the blog accounts of Saturday was their attention to precise detail of the events as they saw it.
The one exception to that was concrete reference to the character and demenour of the marchers. Largely because they weren’t permitted to march.
But what relevance is there in a reference to a speech make by James Craig in the 1932 in response (it is said) to an earlier speech by de Valera. Craig’s words were:
They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State” As NI Prime Minister, at Stormont.
The reference to Holy Cross also begs some kind of explicit statement of relevance to this particular march. If you can find a way of pulling these references specifically into the context of Saturday’s march well and good.
But as it stands it reads like a illreferenced sectarian rant.
At least we don’t have a state church, unlike the UK.
The love ulster campaign was launched with the help of uda godfather, Jackie McDonald, it’s leader Willie Frazer was refused a personal issue weapon because the btitish security forces belive he has connections to people within loyalist paramilitarism, f.a.i.r call the UDR/UVF members of the Gleanne Gang,who killed dozens of people on the streets of Dublin, victims.Loyalist paramilitary bands were part of the shankill road love ulster parade and on saturday, the bands played sectarian tunes before getting back on their buses.
The orange order are quite happy to have loyalist paramilitaries as members, shankill butcher eddie McIlwaine to name but one. The Shankill Road Protestant Boys band and The Shankill Star flute band are regulars at orange parades, they carry banners glorifying uvf terrorists like sectarian killer, Brian Robinson.
The old boyne island defenders orange lodge in Belfast commemorate uvf killers every july,including mass murderer, Bobby ‘basher’ Bates.
Dawson Baillie, when questioned about orangemen(in full regalia) taking part in a uvf memorial on the Shankill Road said
“The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,’’
Deputy Grand Master of Belfast, McMordie said in july last year
“They are on our side (uvf/uda) and continue to defend the orange order”
Senior Belfast orangeman Billy Mawhinney said last summer that the uvf & uda were an integral part of the unionist commuinity and are the protectors of the protestant people
Do these people have the right to march through Dublin ?
Should the uvf or uda be allowed to march through Dublin ?
I don’t think so.
It was obvious the riot was going to happen. What were the southern authority’s thinking buy not applying restrictions on the parade such as no flags, bands, lambegs playing sash. It would have been acceptable to everyone if they had of applied a condition that it must be a cross political and religious parade were ALL victim’s of those murdered during the troubles north and south were represented.
RIOTERS
Was it 300 rioters or 300 brain cells!. Can only assume they were nobody’s with nothing to lose getting a buzz from the excuse to use violence. It would have been far more effective to counter with a peaceful silent rally of their own for ALL the victims. It might have got more media attention.
LOVEULSTER
Heaven knows what they are trying to achieve?
Also disgraceful that they are using the name of dead Protestants to make cheap political points. How low can they go?
The actual victims must be turning in there graves. Don’t the members of loveulster have any respect for the dead, they should realise everyone in the graveyard votes the same?
I was also wondering how parading , flag waving, lambeg beating etc advance’s or remotely represents victims and what actual help are they giving victims on the ground. What are they doing to build peace and create a situation were we never never never have Victims.
Good to see the DUP openly involved with the sectarian orange order/ ex-loyalist paramilitaries who murdered lots of innocent people of both religions. Hypocrisy extreme
The vast majority of ordinary decent unionists should remember this when they cast there next vote and send the DUP packing. Where is the leadership, and progress, what have they done for peace and prosperity?
Good gosh! Whatever did those sinn feiners do to Sackville Street?
Brian Boru (??): At least we don’t have a state church, unlike the UK.
There is no state church in the UK. There is an established church (CofE) in England, and a different established church (Presbyterian) in Scotland. There is no established church in either Northern Ireland or Wales.
Reader
There is a very good reason why the Irish flag is GREEN, WHITE and ORANGE. We have to live together or die together. Either way we will always be together.