Nationalists condemn Dublin rioters…
Alban Maginness: “It is disturbing that marchers have been prevented from peaceful demonstration. This action of extreme republicans simply plays into hands of those of unionist right who cannot conceive unionist rights being upheld in a New Ireland.” Gerry Adams: “There is no justification for what happened this afternoon in Dublin. Sinn Féin had appealed to people to ignore this loyalist parade and not to be provoked by it. Our view was that it should not be opposed in any way and we made that clear”. Sinn Fein Dail Deputy Sean Crowe:
“Willie Frazier and the Love Ulster campaign came to Dublin today to be provocative and get a reaction. Sinn Féin urged people not to be provoked and to stay away and the vast majority of Dubliners, including members and supporters of Sinn Féin, did just that. It is disappointing that a small number of individuals did exactly what Willie Frazier wanted. There is absolutely no justification for the disgraceful scenes, which occurred in the city centre this afternoon. I would call on those involved to end their confrontation with Gardaí immediately.”
Deaglan,
Straight question.
Do you uphold and defend the right of unionists (including members of the loyal orders) to peacefully parade in Dublin?
Did the SDLP’s proposals on All-Ireland policing include public order training for the garda from the PSNI or allowing them to borrow the landrovers and water cannon?
mickhall
With respect, you’ve entirely missed the point.
The Alliance Party does not set the border as ‘a condition’ – the Agreement does.
The Alliance Party is simply making the point that a United Ireland doesn’t solve sectarianism – a point aptly demonstrated on Saturday.
And please lose the historical stuff – every international border was established by conflict. But the world as a whole has moved on to an enlightened age where we determine such things by dialogue. Or at least most of it has…
Surely, the epithet nationalist should not be used to describe
people in the SDLP, who are in the Social Democrat and
Labour gene pool. Natonalism is much more a characteristic of
Sinn Fein- Republican Sinn Fein-IRA (Continuity , Real and
Provisional). Their so-called Republicanism is really another
rendition of violent nationalism which our Government (in its
wisdom) is about to copperfasten as the defining ethos of our
Irish heritage by making Easter Sunday a nationalist holiday, in
tribute to the insurgents of 1916. Talk about subverting the
Good News of the Resurrection!
posted by Kathy C
Hi all,
WIth all this parade talk…who has the right and who doesn’t…made me think….maybe unionist shouldn’t be allowed to march because:
A Unionist is one who wants to keep the north of Ireland part of queen elizabeth’s realm….and it is the law of the land in the north of Ireland that makes it illegal for the queen or her family to marry a Catholic….
For a unionist to march anywhere ….is for the unionist to be promoting inequality of religions…..
In the republic of Ireland…it isn’t illegal to marry any one due to their religion…but in the north of Ireland…it is….and the Unionist want to keep those laws….Doesn’t the EU have laws stating you can’t discriminate anyone due to their relgiion…but the unionist do all the time…so does queen elizabeth’s gov’t. Catholics are good enough to pay taxes…but not good enough to be king or queen…but the law allows a Muslim…a Buddist…even a Satanist…but not a Catholic….interesting.
And please lose the historical stuff – every international border was established by conflict. But the world as a whole has moved on to an enlightened age where we determine such things by dialogue. Or at least most of it has…
Posted by IJP
I am shocked by this part of your post as I always regarded you as a sensible and fair minded man, yet by this statement you seem to have little real idea of the type of world you live in. Every occupier in history as always demanded of those they have wronged, “forget the historical stuff. It was our forefathers who did the dirty deed, we being civilized men who live in an enlighten age will solve this issue by dialog.” Whilst they held a mailed fist behind their backs.
The Romans did it to the Jews, along with countless other nations, today the Israeli State does it to the Palestinians. The British and Ottoman Empires did it to just about every nation they conquered and in between a host of tin despots copied their wicked endeavors.
Indeed to talk of an enlightened age when the Iraqi state is about to be torn asunder due to the criminals invasion of the war criminal President Bush and his poodle PM Blair makes your statement all the more shocking.
It also tells me you have little real understanding of how the minority community in the north feel. Republicans will never consider those who occupied Ireland civilized men nor would we use that word to describe those who continue to enforce partition. However we understand due to ‘HISTORICAL reasons the situation is complex and enough blood has been shed by all sides. Thus for the good of all we are prepared to look for a peaceful solution to this conflict. But do not think for one minute by doing so we accept the British State had the right to partition this small island by force of arms nor that maintaining that partition had anything what ever to do with civilization. It was a foolish and barbaric act, full stop! The consequences of which have been written in misery and blood over the past 78 years.
I wish you well.
MH
“Do you uphold and defend the right of unionists (including members of the loyal orders) to peacefully parade in Dublin?”
Its a bit like allowing the bnp to march through Toxteth or Brixton.
The love ulster campaign was launched with the help of uda godfather, Jackie McDonald, it’s leader Willie Frazer was refused a personal issue weapon because the btitish security forces belive he has connections to people within loyalist paramilitarism, f.a.i.r call the UDR/UVF members of the Gleanne Gang,who killed dozens of people on the streets of Dublin, victims.Loyalist paramilitary bands were part of the shankill road love ulster parade and on saturday, the bands played sectarian tunes before getting back on their buses.
The orange order are quite happy to have loyalist paramilitaries as members, shankill butcher eddie McIlwaine to name but one. The Shankill Road Protestant Boys band and The Shankill Star flute band are regulars at orange parades, they carry banners glorifying uvf terrorists like sectarian killer, Brian Robinson.
The old boyne island defenders orange lodge in Belfast commemorate uvf killers every july,including mass murderer, Bobby ‘basher’ Bates.
Dawson Baillie, when questioned about orangemen(in full regalia) taking part in a uvf memorial on the Shankill Road said
“The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,”
Deputy Grand Master of Belfast, McMordie said in july last year
“They are on our side(uvf/uda) and continue to defend the orange order”
Senior Belfast orangeman Billy Mawhinney said last summer that the uvf & uda were an integral part of the unionist commuinity and are the protectors of the protestant people
Do these people have the right to march through Dublin ?
Should the uvf or uda be allowed to march through Dublin ?
I don’t think so.
Mickhall,
I have to agree with what IJP has said about bringing ancient history into the matter – every discussion on NI politics seems to deteriorate into “yeah, but yous done this on us in 1976″ and “well what yous done in 1920 was worse” etc etc. People are still yapping about what happened 800 years ago for christs sake. It may or may not be true that the way the border was established was wrong, but more importantly its irrelevant. The important thing is where we move on from here, not what happened before you or I was alive.
I think it is highly hypocritical to criticise the alliance party and its views simply because they do not tally with your own. I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simmply what is best for the province as a whole rather than picking one side of the fence and twisting everything, historical and current, to back up the viewpoint that you have chosen.
pete
Pete
“I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simmply what is best for the province..”
What’s best for the province would probably be – a united ireland.
There is less rioting and sectarian violence than there is here in the UK.
The crime rate is lower.
The republic doesn’t have the shameful colonial history that the UK does
We’d be materially better off.
We’d be 10 times more influential in a country of 6 million rather than one of 60 million.
Also, any Irish person can become head of state – you don’t have to be a protestant, like in the UK.
We’d be mugs not to join up.
I think it is highly hypocritical to criticize the alliance party and its views simply because they do not tally with your own. I personally think that it is nice to see that there are people in this country, albeit a tiny minority, who have the balls to suggest that we should do simply what is best for the province as a whole rather than picking one side of the fence and twisting everything, historical and current, to back up the viewpoint that you have chosen.
pete
Posted by pete
Pete,
I feel you are a bit arse about face in your criticism, I would be hypocritical if I did not challenge IJP when I believe he is mistaken. You may feel I have twisted everything in my argument and that is your right, but I feel your wrong.
In life one can rarely solve a problem by starting from where we find ourselves, one must first look back and find out how one got into the pickle in the first place. Those who say, “hey you cannot do that, there is no need”, often do so because they are not dissatisfied with where they find themselves, I fear IJPs party is a bit like that, although these days I have gradually come to have a fair amount of personal respect for many Liberals and in the main I wish them well.
For better or worse the fact is almost 50 percent of the population in the north don’t like where they find themselves, or rather the State they find themselves part of, so whether you or anyone else dislikes it, that fact has to be debated.
Unless you would prefer we all went back into our bunkers, guns at the ready. No of course you do not want that and nor I. Far from being hypocritical I’m being open and honest with JIP, I’m saying this is what I believe and this is what I dislike about what you believe and this is why I think your mistaken in your beliefs.
I’m doing this not in an aggressive or dictatorial manner, nor demanding he reject his beliefs, but I hope in a civilized way as one man to another. It is only by accepting both Loyalists and Republicans/Nationalists have a perfectly viable argument and place within the island of Ireland can the process move forward; and as far as I’m aware the only way this can come about is by talking to each other. mutual Respect is the first step to movement and eventual agreement.
All the best
Mick
If Jeffrey Donaldson and Willie Frazier are claiming a right to march in Dublin based on their Irish citizenship, they’re welcome to renounce the Queen and swear allegiance to the Republic.
Otherwise, the Irish government should have apprehended all of these DUP terror-sympathisers as soon as they crossed the border and detained them as long as the law allows before deporting those who they didn’t charge to London.
We do not owe an N.I. mob of criminal-lovers and bigots anything. They have a history of subverting and attacking Ireland and Irish institutions and each one of them should be treated as a hostile persona non grata and barred from entering the country, permanently.
“We do not owe an N.I. mob of criminal-lovers and ###### anything. They have a history of subverting and attacking Ireland and Irish institutions and each one of them should be treated as a hostile persona non grata and barred from entering the country, permanently”
The author of this speaks of the largest political party in Northern Ireland in language akin to a Nazi.
They are not for “Building An Ireland Of Equals”.
Posted by Realist.
It is good to see unreconstructed republicans on the same blog as unionists. The more of this that happens the better in my opinion.
Interesting too to see how wide is the gulf between those who critisise Birtie for allowing the Love Ulster people to come to Dublin and Irish unionist who want to continue the union with Britain.
I was brought up on a diet of “United Ireland” in Limerick in the 1950s and 60s. Everyone around me believed in “United Ireland”. Some were in favour of getting there by force, others by some other means. Noone questioned the value of believing in it.
Gradually I realised there was another Irish point of view. The unionist tradition is the other nationalist tradition. I see that now.
Argueing for a “United Ireland” is counter-productive: it prevents the construction of respect for all the people of Ireland. It is partisan and pointless. It is doomed to failure.
That’s the view I formed in dublin in the early 1970s. For that reason I chained myself, with others, inside the department of external affairs protesting in favour of the deletion of articles 2&3 of the 1937 Constitution.
I went to London and lived in UK for 30 years until this November. I lost touch with Irish politics. I didn’t even know there were people from the North coming to walk the streets of dublin on Saturday.
But I sure as hell noticed what happened. And it struck me that those who prevented that march are about as popular as those who “rose” in 1916. Pearce et al were vilified by the people of Dublin. After all, people were killed in 1916 and a lot of the city was damaged. I know it was another era but 1916 became popular thanks to the executions, the catholic church and Sinn Fein’s victory in 1918. Is there any way the fighters of last Saturday could become the heros of the future? I think it is unlikely but not impossible.
If Irish unionists are overwhelmed and made to live in a “united ireland”, history will be re-written and the “thugs” of Saturday will be the freedom fighters of a Green republic.
Would you want to live in a society where the views and values of such a huge section of the population were disrespected?
Omaniblog,
last Saturday’s thugs won’t be the heroes of the future because they were out fighting over Ireland’s past.
The men of 1916, whatever anyone thinks of them, were fighting for Ireland’s future.
“We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible…
The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”
That was quite revolutionary in 1916.
Anybody say anything of that calibre last week?
and women of course….
Omaniblog,
Stick to British politics, by your own admission you are way out of touch with Irish politics.
“If Irish unionists are overwhelmed and made to live in a “united ireland””
Ever hear of the Good Friday Agreement?
The way you go on you’d swear there wasn’t a person in the north-eastern counties of Ireland that was a nationalist. The British government recognises reunification as a valid aspiration and yet you don’t?
Comparing the thugs looting shoe shops and burning out cars on Saturday with a uniformed army, attempting to set up a Government and State is rediculous.
“I know it was another era but 1916 became popular thanks to the executions, the catholic church and Sinn Fein’s victory in 1918″
Thanks to Sinn Feins victory in 1918?? This statement alone serves to illustrate your distinct lack of understanding of the goings on in that era. I suggest that the rest of your post can be taken with a large grain of salt as you obviously haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.
PopeBuckfastXV1:
Thanks very much. You are right: I am out of touch with irish politics. I wonder if I want to get in touch? Imagine if someone said the same sort of thing to you… would you feel like trying to understand their world?
I’ve heard of the Good Friday Agreement: it seems to me that a lot of good has come from it. However, there is so far to go that, at times, it seems to me that only the surface has been scraped.
There are plenty of people in the North, and the South, who are catholic nationalists: they hope for a “united ireland”. I don’t expect them to stop holding their views: I once subscribed to their point of view.
The British government does indeed recognise the aspiration for a “united ireland” as “valid”. Wouldn’t they be mad not to? I recognise it as “valid” too. But I consider it counter-productive and unwise. It is a product of one nationalist tradition and it is a thoroughly Green aspiration. I am convinced it is doomed to frustration.
I’d go so far as to say that the only way there will ever be a united ireland is after the “united ireland” aspiration has been exposed as a blind alley. It needs to be completely given up before there will ever be a chance of an ireland united.
I am out of touch with the day to day events of irish politics, except since November 2005. When I read some of the posts, I don’t feel I have missed much during the last 30 years.
The uniformed army of 1916, which was more an army-in-waiting than a proper army, was seen by the people of Dublin as completely misguided. You may have no sympathy for the stone throwers of Saturday. I deplore what they did. I deplore the damage they did to the reputation of Dublin and the fear they inspired. But among them were some who were intent on preventing “our” streets from being sullied by the shoes of “Loyalists”: they were every bit as principled as the rebels of 1916. Among them were angry poor economically deprived people who don’t see themselves as victors in the Celtic Tiger economy: they took the opportunity to get try to even things up a bit. Among them were people who were turned on by the prospect of a bit of ultraviolence: whenever there is tension in the air, they will be round the corner and it didn’t take much to coax them out of the pub.
A noble motivation is admirable. But the result of following a noble cause has often been disastrous. (Look at the noble motivations behind World War One…)
In the background lay an incompetent government leading a police force that was unable to keep the streets safe. The state failed in its most basic duty to its citizens. I wish the Minister could simply admit that and promise to do better next time.
Did I get the Irish 1918 election wrong? I thought that was when the new generation of catholic nationists took over from Redmond. But there is probably so little of the story which we call Irish history that you and I would agree on.
I’m not surprised that you think I haven’t a clue. We don’t share one view of what’s been going on. It’s your manners that surprise me: why did you bother to criticise my views?
Realist2:
you are right, I think: noone said anything so fine on Saturday as that proclamation. But I think Gerry Adams et al did a noble thing by urging people to let the Love Ulster march alone. That took some thinking through. As you know I don’t share your, or Gerry Adam’s, love for the ideal of a “united ireland”, but I admire the political intelligence behind Sinn Fein’s tactic.
Just because those 1916 words are impressive it doesn’t follow that the deed of 1916 had a good result. When you put the 1937 constitution alongside the 1916 words, you can see how out of touch those who wrote the proclamation were with the real forces within their community. De Velara made it happen. Look what he made happen.
Thanks for your challenge.
Omaniblog…
on the 1918 election you state it was a cause of the people coming to accept and admire the events of 1916, I say you have a lack of understanding because you’ve obviously missed the fact that the success of Sinn Féin in the 1918 election was becuase of the already popular 1916 rising incorrectly termed “The Sinn Féin Rebellion” by the media of the time.
You say we should forget about a United Ireland, and you reckon this is the best way to achieve it. Perhaps you think we can be sneaky and fool the Unionists into thinking that we don’t want a United Ireland and then pounce when they are off guard? I’d rather be open and honest about my aspirations. Forget about a United Ireland indeed! Maybe the Unionists should forget about the Union, or does that sound equally simplistic?
I’ve no time for Southern partitionists, especially ones who over simplify the situation, perhaps you’ll reccommend that that all the catholics should move to Donegal next..
omaniblog,
By the way, I enjoyed your blog, especialy your piece about professionals.
Mick Hall
Mickhall,
I got tired of spending so much time reading about 1916 and writing about Irish history. So I put all that debate aside. Only now have I gone back to see if there were any new comments. I’d like to thank you for your kind remark. I don’t understand it because I forget what I wrote about professionals. What were you referring to?
I tried to find your blog or website but couldn’t.