Frazer vs. Frazer: Love Ulster Chapter 201
Talkback had a ‘Love Ulster’ focus yesterday(Tuesday), with an intriguing debate between Willie Frazer and a Dublin-based Rev. David Frazer on this weekend’s march and rally in Dublin. The debate was memorable for an irate Willie demanding that the Anglican minister ‘take pills’ and convert to catholicism after expressing an opposing opinion on the parade. Suzanne Breen threw in her tuppence worth, challenging southern opposition to the parade, though she omitted to mention that Sinn Fein has actually supported the parade.
I’m personally very proud that Irish people, Orange and Green, can bring their campaigns to the capital.
It’s great to see their voices heard in Dublin when they are lost in London.
Another all-Ireland body and a lesson learned ?
Take pills and convert to Catholicism? After the support nationalists have shown Mr. Frazer, its sad but obvious that Mr.Frazer would eventually show his true sectarian colours!
First thing its good that this parade is taking place in the capital of our country and its fantastic that Willie Frazer sees the importance of an all Ireland approach to his campaign. The reason that this parade is causing no reaction is that its like thousands of other parades each year it will not try to march over the rights and concerns of a minority community.
Secondly does it surprise anyone that Ms Breen would not in any way give Sinn Fein. Credit were its due.
It’s almost as good as his belief (quoted in Susan Mc Kay’s ‘Northern Protestants’) that one of the differences between Catholics and Protestants was that Catholics always take a mental note of a strange car coming into their area and Protestants don’t.
Of course SF are supporting the march, every time this man opens his mouth he makes an eejit of himself.
Willie Frazer is everything that ixs wrong woith Unionism. From Susna McKay’s Northern Protestants: “If a Paki came from India and shot an IRA man, I would shake his hand.”
…could someone please post info and back ground on Rev. David Frazer (or “Frazer the sane”) so we use this as a counter to his unspeakable namesake.
‘a Paki came from India’
Brilliant – two insults in the space of five words. That man is good!!!
‘…could someone please post info and back ground on Rev. David Frazer (or “Frazer the sane”) so we use this as a counter to his unspeakable namesake.’
I heard them go at each other on Radio 1 some weeks back (not sure if this is their only debate), Rev. Frazer sounded very like Bob Geldoff (now, that’s what I call useless information). He didn’t think their was any reason for the march in Dublin as far as I recall.
Glensman,
On more than one occasion Willie Frazer has had family members murdered in the South Armagh area by Provisional IRA murder gangs who claim to be Irish “freedom fighters”. Why were these family members targeted? The answer is pure sectarianism- because they were members of the Protestant faith.
The South Armagh Provos had a widely-acknowledged policy of attempting to kill the eldest sons in Protestant families along the border, especially those who owned farms and small businesses. This can be described as nothing other than genocide or an anti-Protestant pogrom.
These republicans, in both the IRA and their mouthpiece Sinn Fein, believed that if the murder of a families’ father/son wasn’t enough to intimidate them out of the area, they would get them out eventually. They calculated that the remaining family members would be unable to keep the farm/business going as they had either businesses/jobs of their own, or simply because they couldn’t afford to run the farms/businesses any longer without the help of their murdered loved one.
So don’t start giving Willie Frazer a lecture on sectarianism, whenever nationalist communities shield and even actively support republican sectarian murder gangs in areas like South Armagh…Mr Frazer is the victim, NOT the transgressor.
Concerned Loyalist
Concerned Loyalist,
Just looked at Willie Frazer’s story on Love Ulster. His story is horrendous. And it explains why Willie Frazer holds his views. It would likely be impossible for him not to.
However, the website doesn’t say much about non republican violence. The sectarian murder of Protestants and Catholics regardless of who pulled the trigger should be the centre of any such protest.
Again, they get unnecessarily political. The site is damning against the Irish government. Also, they hold the UDR in high regard. Now, it’s hard to consider someone looking for a fair deal when they praise an organisation like the UDR. If SF is guilty by association with the IRA then the UDR is equally repugnant.
I did not read anyone making fun of the tragic events in Willie Frazer’s life, rather the utter stupidity of his comments. I’m afraid he is the latest in a long line of Loyalist spokesmen of this type. It would be only fair therefore to invite votes for Republicans who can inspire the same response. The President can get quite close on a good day.
DaithO0
Identity theft!
CL:”On more than one occasion Willie Frazer has had family members murdered in the South Armagh area by Provisional IRA murder gangs who claim to be Irish “freedom fighters”. Why were these family members targeted? The answer is pure sectarianism- because they were members of the Protestant faith.”
And the anti-Catholic riots and church burnings of 1968 – 69 were, what, a fraternity prank gone tragically off course? No, they were not, they were an anti-Catholic pogrom. Actions cause reactions in politics just as they do in chemistry and physics. Did anyone *seriously* think the Catholic minority was just going to lie there and accept these actions without some sort of response, performing the metaphorical equivalent of the Victorian lass lying back and “thinking of England?” You should have learned as a child, you play with fire, you get burned, both literally and allegorically.
CL: “The South Armagh Provos had a widely-acknowledged policy of attempting to kill the eldest sons in Protestant families along the border, especially those who owned farms and small businesses. This can be described as nothing other than genocide or an anti-Protestant pogrom. ”
Sounds *awfully Jewish / Old Testament… you sure they weren’t Hasids?
CL: “These republicans, in both the IRA and their mouthpiece Sinn Fein, believed that if the murder of a families’ father/son wasn’t enough to intimidate them out of the area, they would get them out eventually. They calculated that the remaining family members would be unable to keep the farm/business going as they had either businesses/jobs of their own, or simply because they couldn’t afford to run the farms/businesses any longer without the help of their murdered loved one”
Not wholly unlike the creation of the Ulster plantation, neh? I guess its true — what goes around, comes around. As for who is the victim, that is *ALWAYS* a matter of perspective. Mayhaps were it not for those “non-sectarian” church burnings in the late sixties, the rest of this unpleasentness could have been bypassed.
Any ‘kick the pope’ bands going to Dublin or are they only allowed at the Belfast ‘love ulster’ rallies ?
why are posts showing the wrong name ?
the above posts are mine – Will. ffs
Just want to point out that in this thread I made ONLY the first comment. Anything subsequent is either a “blip” or maybe something sinister !!
And I’m DaithíO the system wouldn’t accept the í
smcgiff
what do you mean an organisation like the UDR?
From the tone of your post I suspect you have mistaken the UDR for the UDA. A case of not knowing your R’s from your A’s perhaps?
“From the tone of your post I suspect you have mistaken the UDR for the UDA”
Was joint membership not compulsary ??
No. In South Armagh it was generally the UVF.
Sorry Glensman, that last post was from Tochais Sioraí.
This new system is going to be interesting.
TS
‘From the tone of your post I suspect you have mistaken the UDR for the UDA. A case of not knowing your R’s from your A’s perhaps?’
Nope – I meant the Ulster(sic) Defence Regiment.
smcgiff
The Revd David Frazer is one of the most liberal minded, limp as lettuce CofI clergyman in the south of Ireland.
If Willie Frazer knew anything about the Church of Ireland, then he’d know that the Reverend is one of the few Church of Irelanders who performs blessings for divorcees and atheists. For that reason, he’ll never be an ideal candidate for the rough-and-ready Catholic Church – now or at any time.
Daithio,
there are no such things as “Kick The Pope” bands. There are “melody” and “blood and thunder” flute bands, as well as accordion, pipe and silver bands. As to who is playing at the Love Ulster demonstration, that is a matter for the organisers. As to the number playing, if I remember correctly, the organisers are limiting it to 6 bands, even though many more expressed an interest.
I think this is a good move as detractors would no doubt have labelled the parade “triumphalist”, “menacing” or “intimidating” if 50 or 60 bands had of marched the streets of Dublin, thus taking the focus off the reason for the demonstration- to highlight the plight of the forgotten victims of IRA violence and to show the Irish people that the Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist community of Ulster are not monsters but victims of a concerted campaign of sectarian genocide, perpetrated by the IRA, at times in collusion with elements within their own government and security forces…
Daithio2,
Regarding the last two lines of your 8:41PM post- is what you’re saying this:
“you did it to us, so we did it back to you”
Do you even know the background behind the unfortunate arson attacks on Roman Catholic Churches? If you did you would realise that the civil unrest of the late 60s wasn’t the sole doing of one community…
CL wrote @ 03:39 PM * to highlight the plight of the forgotten victims of IRA violence and to show the Irish people that the Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist community of Ulster are not monsters but victims of a concerted campaign of sectarian genocide, perpetrated by the IRA, at times in collusion with elements within their own government and security forces… *
altho the parade hasn’t been unwelcomed I can’t imagine that it’s very welcome. People in the south are very aware of the forgotten victims of both communities and aren’t in favour of highlighting some victims at the expense and/or neglect of others.
Few in the south consider Protestant community of the north to be monsters however I don’t know how this can be demonstrated by having a parade in Dublin. Over the year Orange parades (which we assume this will be similar) have be shown to be pathetically monsterous and a blight on the northern society – why transport the most obnoxious symbol of the Sick Counties to Dublin ?!?
*a concerted campaign of sectarian genocide* too one sided to warrant comment.
*at times in collusion with elements within their own government and security forces* this highlights your lack of understanding of the Gardai and political parties in the south over that 3 decades of the Troubles. There isn’t any link, to a degree worth talking about, between those mentioned and a campaign of sectarian genocide. On the other hand what you mentioned was widescale, continuous over 30 years (and still present) and official in the RUC / FRU against the nationalist communities in NI. However this is being ignored by those wishing to march in Dublin.
Niall (shaking head in disbelief of FAIR and their supporters)
CL: “Do you even know the background behind the unfortunate arson attacks on Roman Catholic Churches? If you did you would realise that the civil unrest of the late 60s wasn’t the sole doing of one community… ”
A pointless aside, but why do you insist on soft-peddling Unionist “achievements,” CL? They were not “unfortunate.” “Unfortunate” is when you wash your car and find out its going to rain. “Unfortunate” is getting out of bed and stubbing your toe. It is *NOT* when a whoppin’ lot of Unionist thugs come down and set the cathedral on fire, beating people as they go. Again, you phrase matters as if Unionist misdeeds were simply some sort of prank gone aglee, rather than matters executed with malice of forethought.
Glensman
Sorry, but the perjorative “limp as lettuce” insult is not deserved. Sticking your head above the parapet in this/these country/countries takes a lot of courage. Ask Gary Mitchell.
willis
Most of Willie Frazer’s relatives who were killed by the IRA were members of the ‘security forces’. When he states that they were targetted simply because they were Protestants he is being totally disingenuous.
Niall,
Regarding republican/Gardai/Irish government collusion you remarked:
“There isn’t any link, to a degree worth talking about”……………………………………..
One name flies in the face of this observation Niall- CHARLES HAUGHEY – the same man who went on to become the Premier of your country. If gun-running for the Provo Rafia is not collusion “to a degree worth talking about”, I’m at a loss to what is!
CL: “One name flies in the face of this observation Niall- CHARLES HAUGHEY – the same man who went on to become the Premier of your country. If gun-running for the Provo Rafia is not collusion “to a degree worth talking about”, I’m at a loss to what is! ”
Given your down-playing and soft-peffling, both here and elsewhere, of links between the security forces and Unionist thugs, I would imagine you *would* be at a loss.
Dread Cthulhu,
I very much doubt the arson attacks on Roman Catholic Churches in the 60s had very much “forethought”- malice yes, hatred yes, revenge yes, but planning and forethought…NO. They were most likely carried out by angry young men acting in the heat of the moment. Moments of madness as they turned out, which I’d like to take the opportunity to unilaterally condemn, lest anyone thinks I condone such mindless actions.
Dread Cthulhu,
You say I was “soft-peffling”;
What sort of word is that Dread? You will have to explain it to me as, although I have a capacious and multifarious vocabulary, I have never come across it before in my 21 years on this place they call “Earth”…
A genuine question, Concerned Loyalist, because I do not know the background. What had the Catholics done to provoke those “angry young men” to take “revenge” by burning churches?
Jill Robinson
CL: “You say I was “soft-peffling”;
What sort of word is that Dread? You will have to explain it to me as, although I have a capacious and multifarious vocabulary, I have never come across it before in my 21 years on this place they call “Earth”… ”
Awwwww… poor kid, such a sheltered life you lead, CL, never to have seen *gasp* a typographical error.
I guess its true — if you have the facts, you can argue the facts. If you don’t have the facts, you can pound your shoe on the table. Lacking a useful riposte, you settle for sneering at a slip of the fingers. Bravo…
As for your 21 years on “Earth,” when are your alien masters coming for you?? If we must get into a game of precise language, I must warn you that you imply extra-terrestrial origins when you say “my 21 years on this place THEY (emphasis mine) call “Earth”… ” As for as insults go, CL, yours was crude and clumsy, but, alas, par for the course. Next time, make an effort to try and exclude the target of your jibe, saying something like “WE 9again, emphasis mine call ‘Earth.’” you’ll find it woeks out so much better that way.
I thought petty points-scoring and name calling was left back at primary school…obviously not eh Dread?
CL: “I thought petty points-scoring and name calling was left back at primary school…obviously not eh Dread? ”
I would have assumed as much, but, since I needs remind you: “What sort of word is that Dread? You will have to explain it to me as, although I have a capacious and multifarious vocabulary, I have never come across it before in my 21 years on this place they call “Earth”.”
You requested an explanation, which I have provided.
Personally, I prefer a debate on the facts. I have neither insulted or sneered, simply seeking to provide a little advice on your technique. It seems I must spell them out for you, so I will. First, on debate — ad hominem attacks, sneers, et al, do not enhance your position. Quite the opposite — they open you up to attack — lack of factual support, intellectual mummery, etc. The second point is simply a matter of grammer and the proper use of pronouns, naught more, naught less. It was you, by your own hand, who introduced the topic of individual vagaries in the use of English, not I. That you chose poorly is not my fault. As they say in law, you opened the door.
Concerned Loyalist on Feb 23, 2006 @ 07:31 PM
* One name flies in the face of this observation Niall- CHARLES HAUGHEY – the same man who went on to become the Premier of your country. If gun-running for the Provo Rafia is not collusion “to a degree worth talking about”, I’m at a loss to what is! *
Again we differ…his possible actions (I don’t think the courts came to a conclusion – “letter of the law” and all that) were taken with the understanding that there was government approval, to assist the nationalist Belfast residents who were subject to Loyalist mobs / B Special brutality. Therefore justifiable.
What about the other points I made… “forgotten victims of both communities” and “monsterous” parades from the Sick Counties
“there are no such things as “Kick The Pope” bands. There are “melody” and “blood and thunder” flute bands”
Yeah cl, thats right !!!
Jill herself wrote “What had the Catholics done to provoke those “angry young men” to take “revenge” by burning churches?”
No answer? That means the attacks were unprovoked, no?
Elfinto said : “Most of Willie Frazer’s relatives who were killed by the IRA were members of the ‘security forces’. When he states that they were targetted simply because they were Protestants he is being totally disingenuous”
The key word is *most*. So presumably the others were targetted simply for being protestants living in the wrong area. Also, while not knowing the facts, I’ll take a guess that those who were members of the “security forces” were things like retired ex reservists and the like.
If you want to justify the slaughter of WF’s relatives, at least be honest about it.
CL,
Before you put words into other people’s mouths why don’t you go onto the laughably distorted FAIR website and read Willie Frazer’s story.
No doubt as they will be passing close by, Willie and his friends will be laying a wreath at the of Talbot St memorial to commemorate the victims of the largest single atrocity of the troubles.
This is fun, I’ve never been a Concerned Loyalist before – Sorry CL, that was Tochais Síoraí above.
TS
Poor old rev Frazer he has just shit all over his career (north of the Border anyway). No parish in the North will now have him.
What a wanker
As someone who will be on parade tomorrow with my band Fifes & Drums i look forward to a great recpetion from the native dubs who are known the world over for their hospitality & openess to visitors,im sure this hospitality will be returned.
As for so called Kick the Pope bands i will say this, Why would we spend upwords of £25000 every 3 years on new uniforms & accoutrements, practice twice weekly complicated 4 & 5 piece compositions & travell the length of the united kingdom competing if our only intrest in life was kicking a pope who is holed up a thousand miles away.
We march as its our culture our tradition & when called upon to march side by side with our fellow countrymen to raise valid concerns then march we will.
We may not know much but dammit we know how to walk…
Some of the pro-republican posters here are undeniably showing sectarian attitudes towards their Ulster loyalist neighbours.
Comments about “the plantation” also show a complete lack of understanding of their own Irish history and also reveal that it is sometimes not just the “bigoted prods” who won’t move forward and forget the past.
If you want a united Ireland protestants must be able to hold a demonstration in the capital city- surely you realise this?
Dread cthulhu1
I agree.
I haven’t contributed to this post because I found it depressing and predictable.
Pipe bands and band competitions are an important part of protestant culture. Bands such as the Field Marshall Montgomery have played with the Chieftains. Some bands like some Protestants have sectarian agendas but a lot don’t. Some people even like pipe band music for it’s own sake and go to the competitions to listen to the music. I would rather stick my finger in an electric socket but each to their own! Not all orangemen are ‘sick’ or anti-catholic – proud of their religion yes but not against catholicism. Not all protestant culture is about anti-catholicism. If we are to move on we do need to accept that our cultures have a right to exist and expression. The West Belfast Festival should be funded and celebrated. I wouldn’t go to it because I wouldn’t feel safe or welcome coming from East Belfast- isn’t that sad.
There are forgotten victims on both sides. Shooting an ira volunteer in front of his children creates more ira volunteers. Shooting an RUC man in front of his children creates more hatred. Willie Frazer is like a lot of his and my generation a damaged man.
Nothing is simple but we all have long memories – unfortunately.