Robinson: a long time before the IRA is ready
Peter Robinson was interviewed on BBC News 24 after the Sinn Fein press conference and dismissed Martin McGuinness’ anger as ‘a comedy interlude and a farce’. He pointed out that the IMC was hardly a DUP body: the IMC being made up “a representative of Her Majesty’s Government, the Republic of Ireland’s Government and the United States. He further made the point that Lord Alderdice had been perfectly agreeable to Sinn Fein as speaker of the Assembly. With regard to the apparent clash between IMC and IIDC, he said ” John de Chastellain indicated that he had had a report that the IRA still had a range of weapons, but because the IRA with whom he has channels (as the IMC does not) denied it, and the Guards in the south had no reports of it, he would not confirm.
Robinson’s sting in the tail: “A lot of intelligence has come from people like Denis Donaldson. I’m very sure Martin McGuinness would like see were some more of that information came from”. He then pointed to his own party’s proposals to get politics back on track, suggesting that it would be a very long time before Sinn Fein were ready to resume executive government.
Robinson: a long time before the IRA is ready
He must have got a positive medical report on Paisley.
lmao Henry…
But seriously, more procrastination from the DUP, wouldn’t they love to go back to pre 1994, you can’t bomb the prods into a UI but the DUP are terrified of being talked into one…
“In its report to the two governments, also published today, the IICD said there was “no evidence” to suggest IRA weapons had been retained.
The IICD, headed by General John de Chastelain, notes that “reliable” Garda sources suggest that there is “no intelligence to suggest any arms have been any arms have been retained.” The IICD also said an IRA representative had told the decommissioning body that “no IRA arms had been retained or placed in long-term hides.”
“Reports” without evidence are just hearsay. The securocrats at it again…I heard on “The Big Bite” on RTE1 that they have a file of Blair’s radical days and may have a hold on him that prevents him getting rid of the anti-peace-process ones who are always stirring up trouble.
Really is there anyone, anyone, out there who honestly believed that this IMC report would do anything but give more reasons to the DUP to refuse to restore power sharing?
(Their report is even worse than the leaks suggested)
Does anyone now seriously believe that the subsequent report in April will be any different? Surely, those phantom guns that the IRA holds will still be in their possession then…I mean, how do you get rid of what you do not have and which could not be found by the IIDC or the Gardai. In any case, if the IRA so desired couldn’t they always buy more guns…decommissioning was always a political gesture and one fulfilled…ditto the apparently honest attempts of the IRA to move to peaceful means, etc. (if you take the positive signals from the report)
The IMC have scraped the bottom of the barrel to find all the negatives in between the huge mountain of positives. Must we really wait until every i is dotted and every t crossed before negotiations start? It is ludicrous.
So…no progress then…and surely none before the summer and on until September.
Heres the solution the PSNI are fit for purpose the guns are obviously in the North. The Policing Board should call an emergency meeting and instruct the PSNI to get the IRA guns that they brief the IMC about. Its time to put up or shut up. If they are not readily found they should put their knowledge in the public domain or otherwise the PSNI Special Branch will have a veto over political movement for ever and a day.
If it was indeed a hatchet job, it was very subtle.
What a ridiculous lot those Unionists have become. No group in history has ever made such a rapid transition from arrogant, self-righteous supremacy to whinging victimhood. They just can’t get it, can they, that the old days are gone for ever! No more B-specials, no more “Croppy lie down”, no more discrimination across the board, no more first preference treatment in every respect just for being born a Protestant. Of course the IRA probably have a few guns, just in case. So what! They only had a few in 1969 when the full force of the Orange state’s terror machine was unleashed on the decent Nationalist people of the Six Counties, but they did all right in the end. It’s time for the rejectionist Unionists to join their saner moderate brethren and get on with making the new dispensation work. The way that madman Blair is taking Britain, the Unionists may well be glad to have a United Ireland to go to when the artificial concept the UK goes belly up!
Mick,
If indeed it was then it needn’t be anything but subtle…
One bad word is all it takes, you know that!
M.Gibbs
Yup,
The problem is that although self-righteous supremacy is a crime by most educated people’s standards, it’s not in statute.
The DUP play a smart move is ostensibly distancing themselves from crime and paramilitaries.
If hate crime was a remit in the IMC report, they would be monitoring it, and members of the DUP would have to answer for it.
There’s so much evidence over the years, of Paisley stirring up sectarian tensions, which did not exist prior to his ascendency.
Just go through the speeches.
“Incubators of Rome” + “Tell Bertie Aherne to get his dirty hands off.. ”
Last summer talking about a fire that would ignite and never go away.
Its sickening that we have to endure this.
No-one has the skills to take him on, and expose him all the way on this, dare I say it, spirit level.
Its a clever cunning disguise.
Spiritual wickedness in high places; some of the rastas I’ve talked to and chilled with understand this concept intuitively.
They know its CRIME.
Its white man’s crime.
It takes a king to defeat a king.
“If it was indeed a hatchet job, it was very subtle.”
Subtle or not, it has had the desired result for the DUP. Just enough negatives to hold up progress. Just enough postives to satisfy their (the IMC’s) political paymasters. Handy that.
They have, in addition, pulled the question of retained arms out of the hat at the last minute. Is this an attempt to create a new focus of dispute? It was not mentioned in any of the many leaks beforehand. (Strange the rapid public disagreement with the IIDC, is it not, suggesting a level of official irritation at the IMC report).
Notice that the issue of arms is also the one item of the report that the IRA took issue with in their statement. Why? Because it is likely not to be true. They appear to accept all the other findings of the report with good grace. These other findings show that the IRA leadership has moved to a purely political agenda…
The issue of arms appears to be the one that will now cause the most trouble.
In my opinion the report clearly shows that the IRA is no longer a threat to the democratic process in the 6 counties. Surely, that is all that can be asked of the organisation. If it is still involved in crime, then that is a matter solely for the police and not one that should be holding up political talks.
In any case, tens of thousands of Sinn Fein voters voted for that party, irrespective of the question of IRA wrongdoings but on the basis of Sinn Fein’s political policies. They have the right to be represented by whoever they wish.
In light of this report which shows the IRA as winding down, not using intelligence for anything other than political ends, etc., the govt. should take the bull by the horns now and force power sharing. The situation by September and onwards may not be so propitious…if McGuinness is anything to go by anger is rising…
There’s a lot more than just one word in this report. I suspect it is going to get pored [sic] over for days. What I see/hear is a lot of jockeying for position.
On the one hand it is incontrovertably true that the DUP sat (albeit with stated caveats) in an Executive government when the IRA was almost completely free to do what it wanted short of offensive ‘military action’. And that they ‘seemed’ ready to return to such 12 months ago last December.
On the other it is also true that the Northern Bank robbery (whether by the IRA or not), the killing of Robert McCartney and the subsequent shutting up of witnesses has handed the DUP a whip hand in these latter stages of the process. They said then that as a result, the price would go up.
We are (regrettably) in hair trigger territory now where the slightest touch will warrent further and further delay. But, politically, I cannot see a way around it.
The bottom line is that Sinn Fein, if it is serious about a restart to politics in Northern Ireland, needs the DUP’s signiture on the bottom of the paper.
‘The bottom line is that Sinn Fein, if it is serious about a restart to politics in Northern Ireland, needs the DUP’s signiture on the bottom of the paper.’
The statement by Dermot Ahern that failure to restart the Assembly will eventually lead to the two governments moving forward on a joint initative that includes greater co-operation is a prospect that will privately delight a lot of republicans.
The bottom line is that Sinn Fein, if it is serious about a restart to politics in Northern Ireland, needs the DUP’s signiture on the bottom of the paper.
Mick
That is only for as long as the British give the DUP a veto over the restoration of the institutions. Far from having the whip-hand the DUP are in the pathetic position of being afraid to take office for fear of being outflanked on their right or betrayed by their founder.
That is why nationalists must come together here and in America.
The bottom line is that Sinn Fein, if it is serious about a restart to politics in Northern Ireland, needs the DUP’s signiture on the bottom of the paper.
Mick
How true you are. But you forget to add the caveat that, if the DUP are serious about a restart to politics, then THEY need Sinn Fein’s signature on the bottom of the paper.
This will become clear in the days and weeks ahead, as the DUP attempt to reach for an Assembly talking shop without an Executive and active All-Ireland bodies.
Personally, I believe republicans have less to lose from a prolonged period of political stagnation in the six counties than unionists.
Next year will see a bouyant Sinn Fein double (perhaps treble?) its seat tally in Leinster House, a situation likely to trigger Fianna Fail/ Labour/ SDLP to move in a more concrete manner to develop themselves on an all-island basis, if only to arrest the growth of Sinn Fein.
Indeed, it could be the case that the next Assembly elections – in 2008/9/10 (take your pick) will see more than one all-Ireland party on the ticket.
Hardly an advance for unionism.
“On the other it is also true that the Northern Bank robbery (whether by the IRA or not), the killing of Robert McCartney and the subsequent shutting up of witnesses has handed the DUP a whip hand in these latter stages of the process. They said then that as a result, the price would go up.”
The price did go up…and was paid…
with decommissioning and a clear move to purely political methods, neither of which were easy for the IRA to contenance.
It is for the govts. now to make the DUP see that the price has been paid and to restore devolution. This IMC business is all pantomime. The Brit. govt., with this latest report, could, in full confidence and at no risk, now that it is dealing with an emasculated IRA, restore Stormont tomorrow, and merely wait to see if the DUP would deign to attend and take their executive positions…I doubt they would have to wait long. One may ask, why the reticence of the govt. to do this? Does it believe that strategically the IRA has devoted itself to politics or not? It should be supporting this difficult move by the IRA not pandering to unionist paranoia. I imagine in Israel they have wet dreams about Hamas fulfilling a fraction of the compromises the IRA have, and yet we are told (with straight faces) that these are STILL not enough by Robinson and others…amazing…
“The bottom line is that Sinn Fein, if it is serious about a restart to politics in Northern Ireland, needs the DUP’s signiture on the bottom of the paper.”
It does not. It needs only that the Brit. govt. acknowledge the rights of Sinn Fein voters…progress should not depend on when the DUP thinks Sinn Fein has, in some way, been ‘punished’ enough for past transgressions.
When will pressure be put on the DUP to live up to ITS obligations, that is the question.
‘What a ridiculous lot those Unionists have become.’
M. Gibbs:
Indeed. Today there the unionists are saying the same thing today as every other democratic party in the isles. All the GB parties, Alliance, the SDLP, HMG and the ROI government are all on the same page. Asking for the Provos to stop the illegal activity that they are still engaged in. How ridiculous.
You rant is aimed at the unionists, but they didn’t come up with the IMC report – the IMC did. If you want to have a rant, have a rant at the IMC. It’s not controlled by the DUP or UUP.
Rant all you like. Every democrat in the isles and beyond can see the truth, no matter what PSF and their drone supporters claim about the PIRA being squeaky clean. The unionists may stick to their story about the Provos, while others waver in an effort to give the Provos the benefit of the doubt between reports, but when the report comes out it turns out that the unionists have been spot on yet again.
It’s the Provos who look ridiculous, not unionists. And they are alone in that.
spot on seabhac
The DUP have to be faced down, its indicative of just how scared they are, ( proof of lying )that they are hissing away in the face of reality.
We have to find a way of calling their bluff.
‘It is for the govts. now to make the DUP see that the price has been paid and to restore devolution.’
Says a Provisional supporter.
seabhac siulach:
Did you not notice all the democrats agreeing that the Provos have to give up all illegal activity?
You can rant and rave about the DUP all you want but in the end all the democrats including the 2 governments are sticking to what has been agreed – that the PIRA has to give up all illegal activity in order for its political wing to be accepted as wholly democratic.
This isn’t about the DUP, its about the Provos. No matter what you think, the price HASN’T been paid yet.
‘In my opinion the report clearly shows that the IRA is no longer a threat to the democratic process in the 6 counties. Surely, that is all that can be asked of the organisation.’
Well in my opinion, and its one shared by all the democrats who have commented today, the report clearly shows that the IRA is still a threat to the democratic process in Northern Ireland.
You have your opinion because you are siding with the Provisional position. You think enough has been done, but to democrats that isn’t true. What they have done so far is NOT all that can be asked of them. It is clear that they have to do more.
When are you folks going to work out that the Provos actually have to stop doing illegal stuff, and not just claim that it has all stopped? So long as you remain in a fantasy world where everything is the fault of securocrats or unionists or the DUP, there is going to be no place for PSF in democratic politics.
It’s all up to the Provos in other words.
Mick
“We are (regrettably) in hair trigger territory now where the slightest touch will warrant further and further delay”.
Could become worse than that; this is deeply depressing, will we ever get out of this hole? The Republican movement have handed the high ground to the DUP. In the meantime the loyalist thugs are laughing into their pints.
As for the PSNI and suggestion of hidden agendas and the Government and its sleazy little side deals will we ever feel confidence in what we are being told?
In the end one has to ask does the findings of the IMC really matter? Are we all being more than a little sanctimonious? Have we lost perspective and any sense of an over view?
SF screwed the UUP so suppose they are reaping what they have sowed, the problem is we are all the losers and this and related issues are destabilising.
‘The DUP have to be faced down, its indicative of just how scared they are, ( proof of lying )that they are hissing away in the face of reality.
We have to find a way of calling their bluff.’
spirit-level:
You folks are beyond belief. It’s all a DUP plot, isn’t it?
Did you actually read any of the comments today. The groups you have to face down are: all of the GB political parties, the DUP, the UUP, the SDLP, Alliance, HMG and the ROI government. In essence, they are all on the same page on this issue. They all expect the PIRA to stop all illegal activity before there can be any more movement.
The DUP may be hissing in the face of your reality, but that reality is actually a Provo generated fantasy world, where the Provos are squeaky clean. Here’s reality – no one is buying it. All the other democratic parties are with the DUP on this now. Some may waver between IMC reports in order to give the Provos the benefit of the doubt, but when the report comes out, all the democrats band together.
You can whine on about some DUP plot all you like, but again that’s just a construction in your fantasy world.
It’s not about any DUP veto over anything. It’s about the choice that the Provos have to make. Provo illegal activity is what is holding up PSF being accepted as wholly democratic by everyone, nothing else.
The DUP aren’t scared. They’re probably laughing, as every democrat is on their side on this issue.
some of the rastas I’ve talked to and chilled with
Ouch, did you really say this?
That’s a hairs breadth away from stating that You’re down with the kids
Anymore comments like that and I’m calling in the cliché police.
Carry on…..
‘The Republican movement have handed the high ground to the DUP.’
‘SF screwed the UUP so suppose they are reaping what they have sowed.’
Crataegus:
Are you noticing a common theme yet?
It’s always been about a commitment by PSF/PIRA to democracy and nothing but democracy. The common theme is that the Provos always try to get away with something less than that.
First they tried to get into power while still keeping the guns. That didn’t work, so now they are trying to get into power while still being involved in a bit of illegal activity as opposed to a lot.
Thankfully all the democrats are holding firm on that. So it’s not about the UUP or DUP. It’s about all the democrats expecting that the PRM will give up all illegal activity. That’s what the GFA calls for and the PRM is being held to it.
It’s their choice. Wholly democratic means wholly democratic. It doesn’t mean 90% democratic or anything else.
harpo
you got it upside down
No-one is saying the IRA ain’t sinners, but they’ve paid. The truth is its the liars and hypocrits in the DUP, that like to pretend to sit in heavenly places. Unforgiving, judgemental snakes.
If the good lord came down tomorrow, he’s spew the DUP out of his mouth and comfort republicans, as he did on earth.
That’s TRUTH,
tafkabo
I’m delighted and educated to have spent time with rastas, and all other kinds of folk around the world, as I ain’t scared of another mans colour, creed, or religion. Are you?
Spirit-level speak with forked tongue.
Him big mighty heap proud of respecting all creeds and religions, but him mighty big judge when it comes to DUP and their religion.
Me-um advise him to lay of the peace pipe, else we start to call him Dances with fools
SL:
Really, if you are going to say things like that: 1 you need to drop the ad hominem tags; and 2 you need to stump up something tangible to back up what you are saying. I’ve no doubt you feel what you say. But that’s not sufficient for debate.
Tafkabo,
Wrong, I accept Luther and the victory at the Boyne. Suprise suprise.
My condemnation comes from the way the DUP practice their religion, and use it to demonise groups in society, the narrow-minded, sectarian bile that spews from them that passes for spirituality is a fright to Christianity.
They are fearful, spiteful, hateful and represent everything I depise about religion.
No where else on the planet is protestantism so wretched and devoid of godliness and grace.
Think about it.
acepted mick, hope the above is better
Spirit-Level.
I’m not a religious man, so I don’t claim to be an expert, but I have to say that the DUP, or to be more precise, the Free Prebyterians do not strike me as in any way more extreme than many brands and flavours of fundamentalist protestantism in America and hardline Catholcism in other countries.
And that’s just Christianity, we haven’t even touched on the crazies in other religions.
Of course you are free to point out failings you see within the DUP and the church a lot of them associate with.
but trying to argue that they are the worst examples of religious intolerance and extremism on the face of the planet rather belies your earlier claim to have travelled and gained experience in matters of religion and faith.
One example as my bona fides have been questioned. In Britian Bonfire night is celebrated once a year on November 5th. Perfectly fine thing to do.
July 12th, victory at the Boyne, no problem, perfectly fine thing to do.
What is totally objectionable and unacceptable is for the hundreds of marches to proceed every summer, to the insensitivity of the catholic neighbours.
It speaks volumes about DUP style religion and intolerance, and backs up my earlier points.
Tafkabo
Fair point, but I was referring to protestantism, and Europe. USA is a different kettle of fish, lets no go there, also I think it kinda goes without saying as regards extremist Islam.
Well it’s not every night you watch the news on TV and find such splendid entertainment. Whether it’s Martin ‘education minister’ McGuinness shouting ‘bullshit’ in a childish manner or the secretary of state for Sinn Fein and Wales squirming in his seat so much he could hardly stay on it.
The bottom line is that the shinners and their chums have had a field day with their smuggling scams, property empires and intelligence gathering exercises for years and they assumed that nobody would actually mention it, not even when they threw down the electoral gauntlet in the south. They’re having to play hardball now and need to prove that their ‘Make Partition History’ campaign shouldn’t really be referred to as ‘Make Democracy History.’
Why do the richest party on the island need so much money? Why do they feel the need to gather information on govt ministers, security forces & civil servants if they’re democratic like everyone else?
Do these people want democracy or a failed one-party republican state? And can their supporters on Slugger tell us what SF actually DO want (and spare us the ‘Ireland of equals’ nonsense).
It’s about time we were all told.
The IMC report comes from the same people who brought us the ‘Save Dave’ campaign. Not a good omen for the DUP!
Gerry Lvs Castro.
The problem is you’re focusing on the negatives.
The other parties are focusing on the positives.
A clue to the differing mindsets and approaches?
SL — from what Hain the apologist was saying the only real positives appear to be that the provos aren’t murdering or maiming anyone at the moment.
And that is certainly a positive.
But if SF really want to be treated as a democratic party both north and south, why do they still need criminality, intelligence gathering and weaponry? Why do they stifle debate within their own ranks?
If they really want to appeal beyond their natural fanbase, they need to get rid of this excess baggage, think up some realistic economic policies and acknowledge the fact that Ireland ain’t going to be united anytime soon.
GLC
But if SF really want to be treated as a democratic party both north and south
In what sense are they not? Sinn Fein are treated in the exact same way as every other party north and south. They sit in Dail Eireann like every party in the south and they don’t sit in the Assembly like every other party in the north.
‘No-one is saying the IRA ain’t sinners, but they’ve paid’
spirit-level:
They haven’t paid enough though.
Have you read the GFA?
It demands democratic means only. Not ‘democratic means plus a big bit of sin’, nor even ‘democratic means plus a wee bit of sin’. It demands democratic means only and no sin.
The Provos have a choice. Give up the sin totally and be included as democrats, or keep the sin to whatever degree and stay on the outside.
You can keep on the anti-DUP rants, but they aren’t forcing the Provos to be sinners. The Provos choose to be sinners. They can of course choose to do whatever the hell they want, but the bar has been set and PIRA sin will not be tolerated with respect to PSF getting into government.
It’s all very simple. Why can’t you get this? Give up the sin and you get in.
The odd thing is that everyone got all worked up about decommissioning but it was a side issue to what is happening now. It was only part of the Provos giving up sin and using only democracy. THAT was the thing that was signed up to in the GFA. And the Provos aren’t there yet, no matter how much you bleat that they are.
I want to know, how are DUP voters thinking? Are they sitting back enjoying Direct Rule like those they voted, or are they just as sick and tired as non DUP voters are with this blatant hold up of the institutions?
harpo, Gerry
I don’t accept your premise. criminality is ever-present on all sides of the divide. This is something the Assembly needs to address.
No more excuses, get yer bums on seats, stop nit-picking. You don’t set the bar.
‘I don’t accept your premise. criminality is ever-present on all sides of the divide. This is something the Assembly needs to address.
No more excuses, get yer bums on seats, stop nit-picking. You don’t set the bar.’
spirit-level:
‘I don’t accept your premise.’
Tough titty. It’s not my premise. It’s in the GFA and the Provos are being held to it. Ranting and raving won’t change that. Nor will not accepting it.
‘criminality is ever-present on all sides of the divide’
Yes, but so what? Is this one of those ‘everyone else is doing it so why can’t we?’ gambits. That’s pathetic. The issue is not criminality in general, but rather Provo criminality specifically. PSF signed up to the GFA and committed to no criminality – democracy only. They aren’t there yet. And the only reason for that is that the PIRA chooses not to be there yet.
‘This is something the Assembly needs to address.’
Maybe, and it will be able to when one less group in society (the PIRA) does their bit towards reducing criminality by stopping their criminal activity.
They stop being criminals, PSF become democrats, the Assembly starts up and they can discuss whatever they want.
‘No more excuses, get yer bums on seats, stop nit-picking.’
It isn’t an excuse or nit picking. It’s what PSF signed up for. Democracy only or you don’t get in.
‘You don’t set the bar.’
Indeed I don’t, but PSF helped set the bar during the GFA negotiations, and the bar IS set. You just don’t like the level at which it is set. The people voted for the GFA that PSF endorsed, so what are we to do? Ignore the bar that PSF and the people set, or demand that this part of the GFA be delivered?
PSF is always demanding FULL delivery of the GFA isn’t it? So why not in this case?
If your attitude is ‘well the Provos have come close enough to the bar to make no difference so let’s get on with things’, then can we do that in all cases?
The PSNI is close enough to what Patten wanted so that’ll do. Right? No more excuses – let’s keep things moving along, and no more nit-picking.
Would you be on for that in the case of policing?
harpo,
I’m saying let’s sit down as adults, face each other and discuss our divided society, our identity, our police service, our crime.
Yes lets get on with things as you say.
There is nothing to fear, except fear itself.
Lets be confident and stop fishing about in the cess-pit for rusty hidden guns amongst the turds.
Or bogey-men. Lets build a better world today.
It could be exhilarating.
Harpo writes :
The DUP may be hissing in the face of your reality, but that reality is actually a Provo generated fantasy world, where the Provos are squeaky clean.
The IRA’s criminality is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. I remain hopeful that there will be progress on bringing to justice those behind the Northern Bank robbery and other similar incidents.
However, I’m actually a bit more concerned about the lack of attention given to the fantasy world that a lot of people on here seem to occupy, where the DUP are a democratic party with no links to terrorists. DUP members – including senior members – are often seen in the company of loyalist paramilitaries, and Willie McCrea was shown on broadcast TV sharing a podium with Billy Wright. That figures of course – would anyone like to take a guess who loyalist paramilitaries and their supporters vote for in an election ? We know it’s not the PUP or UPRG, not in any significant numbers. It doesn’t seem likely to be the UUP (despite the active meddling they’ve been doing with the loyalist commission). So would anyone like to hazard a guess ?
The IMC report makes much of the serious disorder which occurred in September. I would remind those contributing to this thread that Ian Paisley avoided condemning the rioting (which according to the IMC was orchestrated by the UDA) and instead blamed the Secretary of State. Characteristically, the DUP have completely avoided addressing the considerable part of the IMC report which deals with the ongoing criminal activity on the part of loyalists and even politely recommends that they should stop targetting nationalists. I suspect that the DUP cannot do this as they would ostracize their own paramilitary-supporting electorate. You know, the folks who came on BBC TV during September when their shop was burnt down and their business was destroyed, to say that what had happened was bad but that the people who set their shop on fire were justifiably angry. The shops and businesses were destroyed, they said, not by the UDA or the UVF but by the Secretary of State.
The DUP is a party with over thirty years of tenuous links with paramilitarism and thuggery. When are we going to see some evidence that the DUP are completely committed to democratic and peaceful means ? When are we going to see some indication that the DUP will shun the terrorists and refuse to deal with those who are wedded to violence ? I’m not holding my breath.
“The Provos have a choice. Give up the sin totally and be included as democrats, or keep the sin to whatever degree and stay on the outside.”
People like Tafkabo and Harpo live by these stupid sayings.
If you ask the average person outside of uninfluenced unionist circles, you’ll get that nationalists and republicans are completely democratic. It’s the unionist parties that have been living in their delusional state of democracy. Nationalists and Republicans have wanted to live in a real democracy, that includes equality and respect for years, but the Taf like big*ts just didn’t have a clue as to what that realy entailed.
Oh well, they’re getting a good taste of it now.
If only you could understand the irony in claiming all opinions are valid, except those of unionists, in the same post you talk about being committed to democracy.
I better spell it out for you once again.
More people voted for Unionists than voted for nationalists in Northern Ireland.
That means unionist opinion does matter, you can’t just dismiss it because you don’t like it.
I hear all this talk about unionists using every excuse for not sharing power, but so far, every so called excuse has been handed on a plate to unionists by the republican movement.
Oh,and if you could try to tone down the personal attacks, thank you
“More people voted for Unionists than voted for nationalists in Northern Ireland.”
Well yeah, simply because there happens to be a larger population of unionist/loyalist voters. Nothing hard to understand here.
“That means unionist opinion does matter, you can’t just dismiss it because you don’t like it.”
It only matters because the British govt has allowed it to. Of course, that is changing as well.
Well yeah, simply because there happens to be a larger population of unionist/loyalist voters. Nothing hard to understand here.
You don’t get how the whole democracy things works.
There are only voters, not Unionist/Loyalist/Republican/nationalist voters, just people with votes.
You’re essentialy arguing that the vote be dismissed because you don’t like the result.
Now please explain to me again why you think you are a democrat?
”But if SF really want to be treated as a democratic party both north and south…”
Henry: ”In what sense are they not?”
Well let’s see now — they retain strong links with criminality — that includes fuel smuggling, cigarette smuggling and bank robberies. One suspects that being the richest political party on the island may not be entirely as a result of the odd whip-round in Boston.
Their (supposedly currently dormant) military wing sees itself as the rightful govt of all Ireland and has yet to renounce that claim despite the conspicuous lack of any substantial mandate for such a premise.
SFs party structure has been described on several occasions as being ‘stalinist’ — internal dissent is not something to be tolerated — just ask Francie Brolly.
Their continued stated aim is a ’32-County Socialist Republic’ — by definition such a state is undemocratic.
The Colombia Three were not exactly backing a group pushing for democracy.
SF express a great deal of admiration for Fidel Castro and his system of govt. — not exactly a paragon of democracy — the bloke has been in continuous power for over 40 years.
They are unique in Ireland in having a military wing (substantially decommissioned of weapons perhaps, but apparently still targetting, gathering information and otherwise continuing intact as a private army).
They are unique in refusing to support the police force in the north and having a substantial animosity towards the police force in the south.
The economic policies recently put forward by their president were described by the Irish PM as being ‘marxist.’
They remain unique in that none of the major parties in the south consider them fit for govt.
TAFKABO
You don’t get how the whole democracy things works.
It’s easy enough. We all vote for people to represent us and they meet to make policy. Then the police raid an office but don’t search it, remove files from the home of one of their agents and the democratic institutions are closed.
Then the same police tell an unelected quango what their supicions might be and on that basis we continue, without our institutions, to be ruled by people who were elected by people who don’t live here for a party that doesn’t stand here.
Henry
I never said it was perfect.
Seano:
If you ask the average person outside of uninfluenced unionist circles, you’ll get that nationalists and republicans are completely democratic.
Bridgeen Hagens and the McCartney sisters do and did live outside unionist circles, and they found out quite quickly how republicans can happily throw democracy out the window. Their crime ? Their brother/fiance got murdered. On Slugger a week or two ago, several people here known for their republican point of view openly justified the exiling of suspected criminals.
TAFKBO:
I hear all this talk about unionists using every excuse for not sharing power, but so far, every so called excuse has been handed on a plate to unionists by the republican movement.
The republican movement wasn’t around in 1974, the last time power sharing was nearly successful. Unionists had excuses coming out of their ears at that time – but it didn’t matter because they just phoned up the UDA and UVF to do the dirty work for them. Unionists have been coming up with excuses before then, and since. Furthermore, the excuses that unionists are using about democracy and peaceful means are, frankly, bullshit. When push comes to shove and we get down to the bare wire, unionist politicians reserve to themselves the right less than democratic methods should things not swing their way. A case in point would be the riots last September (“I blame the Secretary of State, I refuse to condemn the rioters”), but in general getting unionists to justify mass thuggery and paramilitary intimidation is straightforward – all you have to do is mention the words “UWC strike” or “Vanguard”. So much the better if the DUP are in the room, then you can mention words like “Clontibret” or “third force” or “Ulster Resistance”. Ah, they all cry out, the good Doctor distanced himself from all those things when they turned nasty. But why does the DUP seem to find itself constantly attracting the supportive attention of less than savoury elements ?
This “ah, we don’t vote terrorists into positions of power” stuff is bull too. Hugh Smyth of the PUP, linked to the UVF, was voted in by unionists as Lord Mayor in 1994 – while the UVF was actively killing people. What was that all about ? It took until 1997 until the first non-unionist was a Mayor in Belfast – they’d rather elect a UVF linked man than a Catholic.
Given all of this, you can see how people might be forgiven if they thought that this is less about unionists and their commitment to peace, love and tranquillity, and more about blocking progress, avoiding responsibility, and keeping taigs out of power.
There are only voters, not Unionist/Loyalist/Republican/nationalist voters, just people with votes.
Oh please. Are you really trying to tell me that NI voters don’t vote along sectarian lines for sectarian parties in NI?
Tell me another.
It’s also worth noting that the smug self-congratulating tone of a lot of these posts can only harden attitudes.
The “whip hand” and animal training/ cruelty rhetoric is straight off the first page of the DUP manifesto; I’m surprised to see those who I thought were moderate tossing it about so freely.
Given the free amalgamation of “SF/IRA” you are effectively saying that the 23.5% of the population who voted for them “republican dogs” or “republican curs.”
Very constructive.
It’s also hard not to feel a little cynical when there is so much focus on the negative aspects of the IMC report regarding the IRA. It starts to seem like many don’t care if there is an assembly or not.
Tellingly, there’s not much comment regarding the other aspects of the IMC report. Not a peep on loyalist paramilitaries, for instance.
“You don’t get how the whole democracy things works.”
But I do, Tafkabo. What I never got, is how unionists were able to use and manipulate their so-called “ascendancy” into one of the most disturbing and oppressive parties ever.
Your conditioned responses to what you’ve been manipulated into believing, have seemed to have got the best of you.