Robinson: a long time before the IRA is ready
Peter Robinson was interviewed on BBC News 24 after the Sinn Fein press conference and dismissed Martin McGuinness’ anger as ‘a comedy interlude and a farce’. He pointed out that the IMC was hardly a DUP body: the IMC being made up “a representative of Her Majesty’s Government, the Republic of Ireland’s Government and the United States. He further made the point that Lord Alderdice had been perfectly agreeable to Sinn Fein as speaker of the Assembly. With regard to the apparent clash between IMC and IIDC, he said ” John de Chastellain indicated that he had had a report that the IRA still had a range of weapons, but because the IRA with whom he has channels (as the IMC does not) denied it, and the Guards in the south had no reports of it, he would not confirm.
Robinson’s sting in the tail: “A lot of intelligence has come from people like Denis Donaldson. I’m very sure Martin McGuinness would like see were some more of that information came from”. He then pointed to his own party’s proposals to get politics back on track, suggesting that it would be a very long time before Sinn Fein were ready to resume executive government.
Oh please. Are you really trying to tell me that NI voters don’t vote along sectarian lines for sectarian parties in NI?
No, I’m saying that once you start labelling them Unionist/republican voters, before the poll has taken place, you have essentialy forgotten the whole point of having elections in the first place.
Given the free amalgamation of “SF/IRA” you are effectively saying that the 23.5% of the population who voted for them “republican dogs” or “republican curs.”
I made an offhand joking response to a comment I felt was slightly patronising to unionists.
The MOPEs are going to town on it, seemingly forgetting just how often they use language which demonises the memebers of the community who vote for unionist parties.
Dry yer eyes ferfuxsake.
Your conditioned responses to what you’ve been manipulated into believing, have seemed to have got the best of you.
Well pardon my false consciouness.
If you are going to persist with this rather sad and unfortunate series of personal attacks, in lieu of reasoned argument, I have no option but to ignore you.
“Another important step would be for loyalist paramilitaries, including the UDA, to stop targeting nationalists and members of ethnic minorities.”
Your wrong, Yoda.
Couched in the middle of praise directed at UDA men for removing tattered flags which were annoying unionists (though NOT removing flags erected to intimidate nationalists/ catholics) is this reference to the UDA’s campaign against nationalists and ethnic minorities.
It really says it all about the IMC and the compliant nature of the media here: Loyalism, responsible for the overwhelming number of violent and sectarian incidents in the north of Ireland since 1994- never mind the last 12 months- is deemed only worthy of a wrist slapping by the well-paid (and well-heeled) horsemen of the IMC.
Stopping attacks on catholics homes in Ahoghill, catholic schools in Ballymena and immigrants in Antrim would be just “another important step.”
Comrade Stalin is, of course, right to point up the utter hypocrisy of the DUP regarding paramilitary associations. This very morning, the Irish News ran a story about LVF man/ now DUP Press Officer Gary Blair and his support for the Poyntzpass killers.
No, I’m saying that once you start labelling them Unionist/republican voters, before the poll has taken place, you have essentialy forgotten the whole point of having elections in the first place.
Rubbish. People in NI have party loyalties outside of elections, and they vote according to them. It’s simply a fact.
The MOPEs are going to town on it, seemingly forgetting just how often they use language which demonises the memebers of the community who vote for unionist parties.
Please show me where unionists are referred to as animals needing to be whipped/ trained by posters here? The rhetoric seems to be more common than I had imagined.
I’m sorry you don’t see anything amiss with your comments.
My eyes are dry, thanks very much.
Your wrong, Yoda.
The comment wasn’t mine, CD.
Tafkabo,
I think I understand how the democracy thing works. the people of Ireland vote for independence from England in an overwhelming majority, rather than accept this mandate, a new country is created–Northern Ireland. This new country must be accepted of course upon threat of an “immediate and terrible war”–terrorism perhaps? Is that how it works, you don’t like the democratic mandate of the voters so you just make up a border to create an artificial majority, backed up by a powerful and vicious army. Maybe that is when democracy broke down, or maybe when England, by force of arms created a world wide empire based on a hereditary monarchy.
Sharing power with your enemies now that might be the best example of democracy anywhere. Open the assembly and talk to each other, it would be a new start to end the terrible past.
Democrat.
Sharing power with your enemies now that might be the best example of democracy anywhere.
Unless it is done according to the strict rules of everyone adhering to only peaceful and democraic means, it not an example of democracy.
Open the assembly and talk to each other, it would be a new start to end the terrible past.
No.
It will only be a new start when people let go of the methods they have used in the past.
The republican movement know the price of admission.
If they don’t want to pay ths price, they are free to argue the point at elections and get the largest mandate.
That’s democracy, not the majority bending to the will of the violent and criminal minority.
As for all that history bollox, tell it to the people who did those things back then, I wasn’t alive and fail to see why I ought to be accountable for it.
No.
Sounds all too familiar.
What about the rest of the electorate who want to be represented? You know, those who voted SDLP/ UUP?
74.3% of the electorate did not vote for the DUP in the 2003 Assembly elections.
Unionist politicians and general media current position hypocritical as usual!
What price have the loyalist paramilitary’s paid? – None.
How far have they moved in the last 10 years? 0% and hardly a meaningful word about it.
They are very much involved in, (the new no evidence required buzzword of “Criminality”).
Unionist politicians have been inextricably linked to these murdering gangsters in past at various levels when it suited them.
When this ridiculous political stagnation and negativity starts to cost and effect ordinary people financially and they get truly sick of the political and media game playing with their lives then their might be some progressive change such as a GFA 2 and another referendum.
Meantime the rest of the world has moves on.
Unfortunately big brother has the ordinary individual by the goolies as they have no collective organisation therefore no power so big bro can continue to pull the strings.
Disappointing & really disgraceful the way the two governments are handling this.
‘The DUP is a party with over thirty years of tenuous links with paramilitarism and thuggery. When are we going to see some evidence that the DUP are completely committed to democratic and peaceful means ? When are we going to see some indication that the DUP will shun the terrorists and refuse to deal with those who are wedded to violence ? I’m not holding my breath.’
Comrade Stalin:
If all of what you say is true, then what are you advocating? No return to the institutions until the DUP get democratic?
Listen, you can rant and rave all you want about the DUP, the simple truth is that if PSF were allowed into government tomorrow, they would sit happily with the DUP and all this fake outrage about the DUP would be dropped.
This whole fuss is about PSF trying to get into government without having to fulfil their commitment to democracy. That’s what they signed up to and that’s all that matters. The DUP is irrelevant. There is nothing in the GFA that says any other party has to do anything else. Each party to the GFA signed up to a commitment and the Provos aren’t there yet.
Pointing at the DUP and making accusations makes not one iota of difference. Each party is responsible for its own behaviour and that’s the end of it.
BTW
The DUP never did sign up to the GFA, so they made no commitment about anything. So even if all of what you say is true they can do whatever the hell they like. They can have the UDA army council as their leaderhip and it doesn’t matter. They didn’t commit to do anything. Now if it came to the position where PSF/PIRA became wholly democratic and the DUP went the opposite way and officially made the UDA their armed wing, then it would be up to nationalists to refuse to do business with them, if that’s how they felt. But I’d bet the Provos would be fine with a DUP/UDA combination, so long as they (PSF) got into government.
Maybe that’s what unionists should do. Roll the UUP, DUP, UVF and UDA into one pan-unionist front and put it to nationalists – ‘here we are, do you want to do business with us?’.
Then we’d see how much PSF really believe all this nonsense that they spout. I’d say yet another of their principles would disappear out the window in their rush to get into government with anyone.
‘If you ask the average person outside of uninfluenced unionist circles, you’ll get that nationalists and republicans are completely democratic.’
Seano
Nonsense. Haven’t you followed the media coverage today? Everyone except PSF are saying that the Provos haven’t got to the democratic point yet. That even includes fellow nationlists like the SDLP. If average people believed that, why are all the other democrats in the isles telling the Provos they have to do better if they want to be considered to be democrats? Or are they all brainwashed by the influential unionists into being anti-Provo? Is that the official story?
You can live in this imaginary world where supposedly average people roll nationalism and republicanism (presumably that includes the non-republican Provos) into one ball and consider it democratic, but it is plain nonsense. Average people in the ROI government, HMG and the GB parties all differentiate between nationalism, Provisionalism and proper republicanism.
Nationalists like the SDLP are considered to be democrats. The Provisionals are considered to be engaged in a process that is heading towards democracy, but they aren’t quite there yet, and proper republicans are still dedicated to getting their way via violence.
Give average people some credit. They don’t accept the Provo fantasy that all nationalists are nice democrats and all unionists are evil and behind continual attempts to thwart democracy.
‘What price have the loyalist paramilitary’s paid? – None.’
2050:
And why would they pay? They aren’t looking for admission.
I find all the whataboutery amusing. Whatabout the DUP, whatabout the loyalists, whatabout links between the unionists and the loyalists, whatabout the securocrats, whatabout partition, whatabout whatabout whatabout.
This is all smoke designed to cover up the only relevant point. The Provos are not democrats because their illegal paramilitary wing is still in the criminality business. There is only one way to get to be considered to be democrats – to drop the criminality.
It’s perfectly simple but obviously unacceptable to the Provos and their supporters.
The route to political power is in their hands, but they would rather raise smoke to cover that up, and pretend that all sorts of other groups are conspiring to keep them out of power.
I say the Provo leadership is piss poor. All they have to do is sell their constituency on the idea of dropping the criminality, and make that happen. That is all within their power to do. But they would rather keep raising the bogeymen – the DUP, securocrats. Anything but actually clean themselves up once and for all.
Why is this? Why don’t they drive on to the final stage and leave no doubt that there is no criminality? Instead of depending on invented bogeymen who have nothing to do with the issue.
Harpo,
The problem is not arms, it is not the police, it is not criminality. The reason there is so much whataboutry is the unionists keep using excuses, which every nationalist knows are hypocritical. (For the British government to lecture SF about violence when they have been responsible for over 100000 dead in Iraq is offensive). Unionist politicians supported this illegal war also—so don’t take about violence.
I have come to the conclusion that unionists will not share power with nationalists under any circumstances. They didn’t in 1974 with the SDLP. ( I remember someone telling me that they didn’t want Paddy Devlin in government because he was an ex IRA man!!!—And I think he was the most un provo guy you could find.) and they won’t do it now. It is sectarianism pure and simple. Whataboutry is just a polite way of pointing this out.
This report made me angry this morning because it gave one more excuse to these people.
The reason there is no power sharing is because of unionist bigotry –they just don’t recognize nationalist voters as legitimate. Everything else is just an excuse.
I am sick of the unionist view that the will accept nationalists in government if their representatives are acceptable to the DUP. I don’t care if you like who nationalists vote for. They could vote for a party of one legged lesbian nuns and have a right to a share of power proportional to their electoral strength.
‘They could vote for a party of one legged lesbian nuns and have a right to a share of power proportional to their electoral strength.’
heck:
If that nuns party had agreed that the power was contingent upon them being a democratic party then what you say is correct.
Look – the Provos signed the GFA and you can whine about unionists or anyone else but that fact remains. To participate you have to be democratic if you signed the GFA.
So spare me all the whining about unionists not wanting this or that. The Provo’s fate is in their own hands.
Comrade Stalin and Yoda
Thanks for your comments I was beginning to think I had entered the twilight zone.
Let me be brutally blunt. I am in contact with people who are on the receiving end of relentless criminality. If you are being targeted by ‘criminal elements’ it doesn’t really matter much if they are Loyalist thugs or Republican gangsters. It’s no minor matter to be told your movements are being monitored by thugs, even worse if it is also your wife and family. Some of you should imagine what it is like for people working in some areas. To have the weekly visit to your shop or office by thugs or to be told who can or can not work in your business, or to have good staff intimidated on way to work. Do you know in some areas they are so arrogant that they can’t be bothered collecting the money but expect the business owners to deliver it to them! This is anarchy.
For any smug DUP supporters let me tell you unequivocally that, in my experience, extortion is much worse in Loyalist areas than it is in Republican areas. So there is dam all to feel smug about.
When will our politicians get off they collective sanctimonious butts and start to condemn all criminals equally? When will they stop being apologists for the inexcusable in their own community? When will they effectively start to put their own house in order and stop whinging on about someone else’s?
I agree with the basic premise of the DUP. NO we don’t want ANY politicians in government who are linked to criminals or who are up to their necks in money laundering and strange property deals. 10 out of 10 lads, but given the difficulties in your own communities and your less than fulsome criticism of past criminality your pronouncements start to sound insincere and even farcical. Next time someone’s business gets burnt down in your community stop making excuses for the criminals. I often feel utterly pissed off but I don’t go out and burn a few buses. Let me make it easy for you there is no excuse for crime, it’s that simple.
As for SF where does one start, basically the same problem, but given the limited space best to stick to one point. I don’t particularly like, and have really severe misgivings about, the PSNI but standing around carping about them when you could get involved and try to do something about the issues you raise seems an odd approach. The PSNI has to be made to work and has to enjoy the support of all or we will never effectively sort out criminality, is that your objective, because that is the way it looks. A real good PR position.
The press focus seemed to me to be on Republicans and seemed a tad unbalanced, but listening to the various politicians has convinced me that they are not worth the money their being paid. Stop the salaries and expenses, collective waste of money and an utter shame.
magnus: show dissatisfaction with unionist intransigence by initiating an economic boycott of all unionist business
How do you recognise a unionist business? Are you going to poll the employers, or the employees? Maybe you can just guess? Should the ‘Nationalist/Republican population’ be willing to employ unionists in their own businesses?
I’m just trying to work out where you are coming from…
magnus, you appear to live in a topsy-turvy world. It is not nationalist/republicans who have to face the reality of unionist intrangigence as you put it. Quite the reverse, i think it is unionists who have to face the reality that nationalist and republicans are quite happy to vote for and be happy to be represented by people who do the following – rob banks, deal drugs, launder money, steal fuel, murder people in bars, flog counterfeit goods, shoot people in the kneecaps or nail them to fences for misbehaving, spy, lie and deny at every turn. This is the reality. As a unionist i can say that i will never understand that tolerance or ambiguity towards your political representatives.
The old charge is often levelled at unionism that ‘we don’t want a fenian about the place’. Just look back at events since 1998 and honestly and impartially tell me that statement or your own analysis really stacks up.
This is not intrangigence, it’s about honouring obligations. We gave republicans every chance to move away from their past, 3 times we went into government, 3 times they f**ked us about. If they leave criminality behind them, stop all the old bull. You can pursue your republican/nationalsit agenda for a united ireland within a devolved power sharing government in Northern Ireland without the dodgy dvd’s, fenced fags and dvd’s and without all the crap that the imc, cops and everyone else but the shinners says they are involved with.
Ah, i hear you cry, what of the loyalist paramilitaries. Simple. scumbags. Should be wiped off the face of the world and if anathing at least republicans have an ideology, loyalists are just a bunch of thugs who have sullied the name of the original uvf. One difference though. We are not being asked to share a government with them. If we were my answer would be the same. No thanks, stop your bull and then we can.
Maybe i’m in a minority here, but that’s how i see it. Start your boycott if you like magnus, your mates in Sinn Fein can get you whatever you need on the black market anyway…
“…if McGuinness is anything to go by anger is rising…”
I wonder is it rising as much as amongst those of us who are totally pissed off at the republican movement’s inability to give up criminality, thus paving the way for saving us from the British ministers currently ruining this place?
When will the penny drop with the republican movement?
For being such “cute hoors”, their inability to grasp basic concepts is quite alarming.
“he Nationalist/Republican population should just go about the business of building their own community and show dissatisfaction with unionist intransigence by initiating an economic boycott of all unionist business (most of them voted DUP)”
Just what we need…a bit of good old sectarianism and polarisation. Brilliant.
“Maybe i’m in a minority here, but that’s how i see it”
I agree with every word in your post bo’shank.
I think your feelings are akin to those of many, many people.
I’m not convinced “magnus” is a native of Northern Ireland.
If he/she were, he/she would be acutely aware that his/her cunning little plan to hit those nasty unionists and their families in the pocket, might just effect everybody.
If magnus knows of any sizeable exclusively unionist businesses, will he/she please make the detail available to the Equal Opportunities people please.
I thought we had a system of secret ballots, and yet some people seem to know who others voted for.
Where do they get their information from?
And what message do they think it sends to threaten people on the basis of their electoral choices?
The republican midnset of do what we say, or else remains intact.
ho hum
Tere’s an old legal principle “case weak-shout loud. Case weaker- shout louder”. And how clearly we see that being put into practice by the Slugger Cumann of Shinners. Guys, you might convince yourself, but the rest of us see you wasting valuable time hunting for more spies in your leadership.
Here it is in a nutshell.
Unionists will share power, even in a flawed construct, with nationalists and republicans who can prove to the satisfaction of the Unionist community in general that they are playing by the rules the rest are bound by.
TAFKABO, Harpo etc, are not-if their posting history is evidence-mad -eyed fundamentalists. But if even they, and arch bigots like David Ford- aren’t convinced,republicans will have to DO MORE. And no amount of screaming and throwing toys out of prams will budge us.
In answer to Conor’s question-Peter Hain is just about the most odious arrogant politician in the House of Commons, presiding over an amoral, degenerate clique of civil servantsin the NIO. And yet 99.999999% of Unionists will say that they are prepared to tolerate this buffoon in preference to gerry Kelly in charge of police, or Martin MgGuiness in charge of education while they are connected to a criminal empire.
And Hain’s pathetic attempts to kick us into stomaching the provos in power by calamitous maladministration are not going to budge us.
“The statement by Dermot Ahern that failure to restart the Assembly will eventually lead to the two governments moving forward on a joint initative that includes greater co-operation is a prospect that will privately delight a lot of republicans. ”
Laughable— Dermot will avoid like the plague anything that might cost the ROI euros. The celtic tiger is already limping badly –no more costs– PLEASE
Magnus
Business owners tend to vote similar to the community they come from. It therefore follows that a large number don’t bother to vote some vote UPP some Alliance, Green etc.
It therefore follows that the majority probably do not vote for the DUP, but that aside they have a right to vote for the DUP just as Republicans have a right to vote for SF. Voting is not a crime, misguided perhaps but not a crime. So instead of proposing actions that increase the suffering of the innocent why not turn your attentions to penalising the thugs and racketeers. Why not propose boycotting dodgy DVDs, smuggled fags, cut price diesel, the businesses owned by paramilitary types. Why not suggest we need a system that enables Solicitors, Architects and other professionals to check on the sources of funds of their clients?
“Unionists will share power, even in a flawed construct, with nationalists and republicans who can prove to the satisfaction of the Unionist community in general that they are playing by the rules the rest are bound by”
Unionists will share power – going by their track record, this is a highly dubious prediction.
even in a flawed construct – flawed because it has fenians in it?
can prove to the satisfaction of the Unionist community in general – so my vote doesn’t count until the unionist community say so….mmmm….sounds a bit like the good old days.
they are playing by the rules the rest are bound by – as judged by a group recieving information from British intelligence. Yes, the enemy of Irish republicanism. Nice.
I’d be quite happy today if SF declared its intention to NEVER sit in stormont again. Unionists will NEVER NEVER NEVER share power with republicans. SF is only wasting its time.
Unionists will share power – going by their track record, this is a highly dubious prediction.
If you want to use this line of reasoning, then you have to accept that unionists have a perfectly valid pont of view in thinking that republicans can never be committed to soley democratic and peaceful measures.
That’s the negative way of looking at it of course.
The flip side is that if republicans can change, so can unionsists.
Just because someone has a past, doesn’t mean they can’t have a future
As one Nobel peace prize winner once said.
“I’d be quite happy today if SF declared its intention to NEVER sit in stormont again. Unionists will NEVER NEVER NEVER share power with republicans.”
Cahal,
You’re memory mustn’t be so good.
“SF is only wasting its time”
What’s the alternative? Back to the “good old days”, as you would call them?
I sense that this difficult choice for the republican movement between democracy or war, is proving a wee bit more of a brain teaser than what was first thought for them.
Thinly veiled threats don’t work.
No cahal, of course your vote counts. This isn’t about playing the victim. The point being made is that if that the people you vote for don’t play by the same rules as everyone else. ‘Enemy’ or not, you are living in great britain. Until the majority chooses otherwise this will remain to be the case (it’s in the agreement remember?)So i’m afraid that you are stuck with British police, intelligence and army, British money and a majority who are British for the foreseable future.
While you are quite at liberty to pursue your legitimate wish for a united Ireland, you will find that your political representatives, because their mates in the IRA are still nicking stuff, beating people and holding on to weapons are not being made to feel welcome by the democrats who don’t do all of the above or have ‘volunteers’. So really it’s up to you as crataegus suggests. You put pressure on your political represenataives to get republicans to quit arsing around like gangsters and you will find unionists like me all over Northern Ireland saying game on.
Ps we have shared power with Republicans, but gun running, spy rings and continued shenanigans put paid to that. Think about it Cahal. It’s not unionists who don’t want to share power.
Harpo
“Nonsense. Haven’t you followed the media coverage today? Everyone except PSF are saying that the Provos haven’t got to the democratic point yet. That even includes fellow nationlists like the SDLP.”
Does it occur to you that, those parties/politicians who spoke out against Sinn Fein have a motive?
‘Does it occur to you that, those parties/politicians who spoke out against Sinn Fein have a motive?’
Seano
Of course they have a motive. The shared motive is to have a situation where no party in government in NI has an illegal wing that is engaged in illegal activity. At the moment the Provos do, and since PSF signed the GFA and commited not to be in this position, the others are standing fast and demanding that PSF meet its GFA undertakings.
Or did you mean some dark motive like everyone else being out to destroy the Provos? That’s just your imagination.
actually harpo, agree entirely with you except for one point…there is no record of sinn fein ever ‘signing’ the gfa…
‘Ps we have shared power with Republicans, but gun running, spy rings and continued shenanigans put paid to that. Think about it Cahal. It’s not unionists who don’t want to share power.’
bo’shank:
Dead on the mark.
The executive was running in the past based on the promises by PSF that things would be dealt with later, but of course they had no intention of sorting things out. The institutions had to be collapsed to get them to move.
As always PSF try to get things going on the basis of promises that THEY have no intention of keping, in the hope that no one will have the guts to stop things running if the promises aren’t kept. That’s been their constant tactic – they hope to have it both ways – power and the ability to keep on doing whatever it is they are doing in the world of illegality.
So now they are complaining that expecting the PIRA to cease all illegal activity is just nit-picking and that they have done enough to justify them being let into power. But even here they are being hypocritical.
If their position is now that ‘things aren’t perfect, but let us in to get society working’ why hasn’t that been applied to other issues like policing? They keep saying that only 100% of Patten is acceptable and there can be no movement until that happens. What happened to this principle of ‘it’s not perfect but it’s close enough’ in that case?
They are hypocrites, and as usual it’s all about them. On policing only 100% delivery by others will do, but on the executive and assembly, 100% delivery is not required from them. Close is good enough.
Why does everyone assume that SF want to see a government in the six counties, especially with IP as first minister?
SF are in a win-win situation. Either Unionists deal with them or direct rule continues. As it stands at the minute, direct rule is edging towards a British exit strategy.
They are hypocrites, and as usual it’s all about them. On policing only 100% delivery by others will do, but on the executive and assembly, 100% delivery is not required from them. Close is good enough.
Okay, but they aren’t exact equivalents, and it is a smokescreen to suggest that. From a non-shinner perspective I see that one party wants an assembly up and running and disagrees with how policing policy has been implemented. The SDLP also wants Patten. SF and the SDLP disagree on how to go about getting it.
Specifically, what parts of Patten does the DUP disagree with?
The other wants to block the assembly which 74.3% of the NI electorate voted for. Nobody’s spun that point yet.
As it stands at the minute, direct rule is edging towards a British exit strategy.
Interesting. Care to expand?
“direct rule is edging towards a British exit strategy”
One small snag.
Unfortunately for PSF & the British Government, they’ll not be exiting anywhere until the greater number of people in Northern Ireland tell them it’s time to go.
Another small snag.
800,000 British are not exiting anywhere, ever.
800,000 British are not exiting anywhere, ever.
Fair enough, but that’s not what he said.
I’m still wondering what the poster reckons such an exit-strategy would look like.
Realist
“I sense that this difficult choice for the republican movement between democracy or war, is proving a wee bit more of a brain teaser than what was first thought for them.
Thinly veiled threats don’t work. “
Errrr, what are you on about?
I was talking about Joint Authority or Repartition as possible ‘third’ ways. Not going back to a war I never supported in the first place. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Bo’shank
“‘Enemy’ or not, you are living in great britain.”
I think you need to take a look at a map. If you are making basic errors like this, well ….
“You put pressure on your political represenataives to get republicans to quit arsing around like gangsters and you will find unionists like me all over Northern Ireland saying game on.”
Why not just write this instead –
“You put pressure on your political representatives to ‘ENTER CURRENT EXCUSE FOR NOT POWERSHARING HERE’ and you will find unionists like me all over Northern Ireland saying game on.”
In the north, perception is reality (as evidenced by the IMC report). The perception in nationalist circles is that the unionist family will never share power with republicans of any hue. Nothing has ever been done to challenge this perception. There was a brief period under Trimble of course. And he paid dearly at the election box for cavorting with the fenians (or dogs as they have been called on another thread). This game of ‘jump!’-‘how high?’ is the biggest smoke screen in the history of this shambolic state.
The utter glee with which unionists greeted the negatives in this report says it all.
I was talking about Joint Authority or Repartition as possible ‘third’ ways.
I never gave repartition much play before: I’m beginning to warm to it now.
Cahal,
Quote”I’d be quite happy today if SF declared its intention to NEVER sit in stormont again. Unionists will NEVER NEVER NEVER share power with republicans. SF is only wasting its time.”Unquote
Oh I do not think that would go down well in London ? do you. Are you a rare breed Cahal? you know a Shhhhhhhh Real Republican not a plastic Brit version.
Martin
“Oh I do not think that would go down well in London ? do you. Are you a rare breed Cahal? you know a Shhhhhhhh Real Republican not a plastic Brit version. ”
? Too much wackybacky me thinks.
yoda
“I never gave repartition much play before: I’m beginning to warm to it now. ”
Me too. Best of the worst choices.
Cahal,
Quote2? Too much wackybacky me thinks”Unquote
Then stop.
Joint Authority is the way to go. The details need to be worked out but it can be done such that everyone gets what they want.
I tried to propose details on this site but I think the idea frightens unionists. I got objections to details that could be worked out rather than objections to the basic principle.
People need to think how it would work to make it a realistic proposal.
Joint Authority is the way to go.
Again, I’m not opposed full JA either. But it’s often considered to be part of the “stepping stone” strategy.
I’d never even considered the option of repartition before. Frustration has actually made me consider it.
Harpo
“Of course they have a motive. The shared motive is to have a situation where no party in government in NI has an illegal wing that is engaged in illegal activity.”
Now you’re just being completley disingenuous by disquising the bluff. Sinn Fein does not have an illegal wing engaged in illegal activity. Sinn Fein is a democratic party who are accountable to themselves, and cannot continue to be held accountable for the few misdeeds (past or present) from IRA volunteers.
Hell, everyone knows that unionists will continue to try and grasp at any loose strings that they can use to influence the PSNI/NIO and eventually the IMC.
It’s a total disgrace! And unionsts wonder why nationalists and republicans continue to harbour resentful feelings toward them.
“And unionsts wonder why nationalists and republicans continue to harbour resentful feelings toward them.”
Seano,
This unionist doesn’t wonder about that at all, I can assure you.
It’s because we’re still here, and staying put.
Harpo, thanks for the reply. I hope you will reply again to my points below as I’m really keen to get to the bottom of the mentality that seems to pervade the unionist side of the power sharing debate.
If all of what you say is true, then what are you advocating? No return to the institutions until the DUP get democratic?
That is the logic of the DUP’s position. One of their party members is out backing the early release of some LVF prisoners. The DUP is not the political wing of the LVF so why does it feel the need to behave as though it is ?
But that aside, what I am advocating is quite simple – the rest of us are expected to overlook the DUP’s past tenuous links with terrorism, so why can’t the DUP similarly overlook those of SF and start with a clean sheet ? They should drop these pointless objections to powersharing. As a next step, what I’d really like to hear is the DUP admitting that the UWC strike, their past associations with loyalists, the September riots last year, and so on were all bad mistakes. Republicans are quite rightly expected to admit that their armed campaign was wrong – they haven’t done so yet but maybe they will – so it is right that we should have a similar expectation of the DUP. I’d like to see them reaffirm their commitment to peaceful means, and know that if I decide to vote for a united Ireland they will not resort to military tactics to stop it – I want them to make the same commitment to the principle of consent that SF have. Is that fair enough do you think ?
Listen, you can rant and rave all you want about the DUP, the simple truth is that if PSF were allowed into government tomorrow, they would sit happily with the DUP and all this fake outrage about the DUP would be dropped.
My outrage about the DUP is not fake, it is very real. On several occasions the DUP have been closely connected to certain private armies which have subsequently armed themselves and carried out acts of terrorism. Only last September Ian Paisley said words to the effect that the rerouting of the Whiterock parade would “set in motion things that could not be stopped” in an already tense atmosphere where loyalists were busy orchestrating attacks on the police and business premises. Is this kind of thing acceptable ? Are the DUP really fit to govern in a democratic country ?
People in this country right now are suffering from the effects of terrorism, criminality and everything else. But the DUP won’t address the loyalist contribution to that problem. What action have the DUP ever taken to get loyalist flags taken down ? When have the DUP ever assisted to bring the loyalist criminals and drugdealers who live among their electorate to justice ?
This whole fuss is about PSF trying to get into government without having to fulfil their commitment to democracy. That’s what they signed up to and that’s all that matters.
Name some parties that are committed to democracy ? Three out of the four largest have all been associated with paramilitarism lately. Let’s face it – most people in Northern Ireland think that paramilitarism is sort of OK or understandable. We must stop indulging in this fantasy that some parties are more democratic than others.
There is nothing in the GFA that says any other party has to do anything else.
The GFA requires a commitment to exclusively peaceful and democratic means. What evidence is there to show that the DUP have met that commitment ?
Pointing at the DUP and making accusations makes not one iota of difference.
I am merely hoping that you might address the issue of paramilitarism and criminality within unionism in the same way that you – quite rightly – expect it to be addressed within republicanism.
Each party is responsible for its own behaviour and that’s the end of it.
Indeed, so will the DUP be invoking it’s disciplinary procedures the next time a senior party member takes to a podium with a paramilitary leader ?
The DUP never did sign up to the GFA, so they made no commitment about anything.
Nobody “signed up” to the GFA except for the 71% who endorsed it. It is an agreement between the British and Irish governments and is enshrined in law. Following an overwhelming endorsement in a referendum, it defines the parameters upon which politics here will go forward. The DUP cannot change that.
They can have the UDA army council as their leaderhip and it doesn’t matter. They didn’t commit to do anything.
Do terrorists and/or their supporters have a right to a role in government or not ? It would be useful if unionists would take a consistent position on this issue.
Harpo, my reply continued :
Now if it came to the position where PSF/PIRA became wholly democratic and the DUP went the opposite way and officially made the UDA their armed wing, then it would be up to nationalists to refuse to do business with them, if that’s how they felt.
I thought this comment was revealing. I hope you don’t mind me reading between the lines, but you seem to imply that if the UDA were linked to the DUP, the only people who would object would be nationalists. I am not a nationalist and I find the DUP’s tenuous links with terrorism nauseating.
Maybe that’s what unionists should do. Roll the UUP, DUP, UVF and UDA into one pan-unionist front
It has been clear for decades that this is effectively the case. Unionism staged an armed coup in 1974, attempted to do so again in 1978 and 1985, almost pulled it off during Drumcree 1996 and threatened it again last September. When will this nonsense stop ?
and put it to nationalists – ‘here we are, do you want to do business with us?’.
What do you think would be a reasonable response to that proposal ?
Then we’d see how much PSF really believe all this nonsense that they spout. I’d say yet another of their principles would disappear out the window in their rush to get into government with anyone.
The logic is pretty straightforward. In case you had not noticed, the British government are hostile to do-nothing unionism and have set their faces against it. The do-nothing unionism that you are advocating will lead to joint authority by the back door and the destruction of the union. Don’t you think it would be better to salvage what you have left before Blair and Hain start selling it off chunk by chunk ?
Realist
“This unionist doesn’t wonder about that at all, I can assure you. It’s because we’re still here, and staying put.”
That’s good that you don’t wonder. You’re just another good unionist heading in the right direction.
As far as the “we’re still here” and “staying put”, that’s good as well. I think you’ve misunderstood my previous post. Nationalists and Republicans don’t want you to leave. They prefer to peacefully coexist with unionists/loyalists, but without the whinging.
“Nationalists and Republicans don’t want you to leave. They prefer to peacefully coexist with unionists/loyalists, but without the whinging”
Seano,
That’s excellent news.
Once republican whinging stops, reality is faced by the movement representing the greater number of nationalists/republicans in Northern Ireland, and the appropriate and neccessary actions are taken to get themselves into government,I’m sure you and me will get along just fine.